Radial DIs How do you feel about them? (Studio/Live) (or DIs in general)

[timwat]

I've said this before on this forum several times, and since you're asking I'll repeat myself when under stress:

 

I spent the time to actually A/B several different brands of DIs a while ago when I was running a worship ministry for a church. Ended up with the context to purchase several DIs from different manufacturers, all different price points and such, and try them with double-blind listening tests on a variety of inputs, through a well-designed fixed installation PA system.

 

Bottom line is there are several brands out there that will very significantly impact what an instrument sounds like. This varies from type of instrument - guitars not nearly as much as electronic drums, for example. 

 

After my several weeks of experiments and such, Radial and Countryman are the two brands I purchased. 

 

I left that gig many years ago - so when it came to spending my own cash for my gig rig, I'm well stocked with several Radial devices, and my current gig rig revolves around a Key Largo. Hope that helps you some.

[dazzjazz]

7 hours ago, mate stubb said:

The passive transformer models (especially the Jensen transformers) sprinkle magic audio fairy dust on your sound. I've had my JDI Duplex for years and keys sound audibly better somehow. Radial rocks.

This is absolutely true. I had a JDI Duplex and the JDI mono one, whatever that’s called. Absolutely fantastic. Keep in mind the warranty on these is FIVE years. One of the XLR pins got bent somehow, which was my fault. They fixed it for free! These are not cheap but worth every cent. 

[CowboyNQ]

7 hours ago, MAJUSCULE said:

They’re the standard.

What Eric said.

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

It's TRS.  

 

What do you mean it won't convert anything?  and yes there is a switch on the front of the Neve, but if you have MIC selected and a 1/4 plugged in, it produces no sound.  and vice versa....

 

So that's why I'm wondering...  if the Neve can tell what's plugged in and will provide a difference in gain levels, then does it matter what is plugged in.  Seems like it does.  So I want to come out of the JD6 in the manner it was made to work (xlr to xlr) ... I just don't want to buy the cables.  HAHA.  I didn't even think about it as far as the studio.  

The cable is just wire with ends on it, beyond what cable does to signals it cannot change anything. 

That's what I meant.

[Adam Burgess]

19 hours ago, mate stubb said:

The passive transformer models (especially the Jensen transformers) sprinkle magic audio fairy dust on your sound. I've had my JDI Duplex for years and keys sound audibly better somehow. Radial rocks.

I've got a JDI Duplex that sounds excellent, and it does do something that the BSS standard ones around here don't do. It wasn't cheap but it's got some nice handy (workaround) I/O on it, unbreakable as far as I can tell after 5 years, and sounds lovely.

[synthizen2]

I've been using a pair of Behringer Ultra-DI 400P's for about 5 years... and just a couple months ago, one of them went belly-up. So, I thought I'd just buy a replacement for the one that went bust.

 

But... just in the nick of time... that same Church Basement Flood that netted our band a whole sound system for free a couple months ago... also just netted me a free Radial PRO-D2 (a stereo DI)... as a bandmember overheard me about my broken DI, and said: "Here, try this". 

 

Surprisingly enough... with this DI (and all the other PA gear) having been submerged in water for a couple of weeks (and then dried out)... IT WORKED. YAY!

 

Very nice having a stereo DI so I don't have to have two mono DIs to deal with. And it sounds great!

 

[Mills Dude]

One of the best and most versatile pieces of gear I own is the Radial JDI Duplex.  Current price is over 400 smackers (Wow inflation!) but for a keyboardist its the swiss army knife and it sounds great.  Having that in my bag I always felt confident for any gigging situation I encountered.  

 

When I was gigging regularly, I'd typically use my KC-350 (yuck sound, but ok for self monitoring and I'd mix 2-3 keyboards) and take the mixed output to the JDI in stereo.  If I was dealing with more professional FOH that wanted direct signal and stereo, 2 keyboards would require 4 DIs.  Having the duplex could lessen the burden on FOH.   Always got a sigh of relief and a smile from pro-FOH when pulling that out of my bag as it helps relieve their pressure when dealing with crowded stages with a lot of instruments.

 

Dealing with amateur FOH or BL PA, many times they don't understand getting line level, no problem, just hit the pad switch. Or the dreaded, getting a buzz or hum due to grounding, no problem hit the ground lift.  Not sure how the mono sum feature works, but I've used it in a pinch where FOH wanted mono and was able to 'mix' 2 keys together.  Or if dealing with someone who understands phase issues, no problem with the reverse polarity switch if thats a problem. 

 

I used to play a lot of coffee houses and they'd always have these Whirlwind IMP boxes for the acoustic guitar players because they're cheap.  Radials are just better.  As RealMC points out, if dealing with pickup based electro-mechanicals, matching impedance is important.  Its no surprise that a Country Man would be a great choice for those.  But for the modern electronic keys putting out line level, the Radials are the best bang for the buck.

 

If you're using one of those new fangled keys, like a MODX that can mix another keyboard, having a JDI duplex is perfect.  Can provide a clean stereo signal path and take an out to your self monitoring situation.  Need to mix more, KeyLargo looks like a great choice.

 

Just a great bit of gear and as already attested to, they are built like tanks.  Mines like 15 years old, clonking around in the gig bag, dragged across stage floors, in the grass and on pavement for outdoor gigs.  It doesn't even have a scratch on it.  It will outlive me.

 

Part of being a pro or semi-pro is to guarantee your signal to the FOH.  In an amateur situation, never know what you might encounter. Having a quality DI like a Radial helps to ensure that your providing the best signal.

  

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

21 hours ago, timwat said:

I've said this before on this forum several times, and since you're asking I'll repeat myself when under stress:

 

I spent the time to actually A/B several different brands of DIs a while ago when I was running a worship ministry for a church. Ended up with the context to purchase several DIs from different manufacturers, all different price points and such, and try them with double-blind listening tests on a variety of inputs, through a well-designed fixed installation PA system.

 

Bottom line is there are several brands out there that will very significantly impact what an instrument sounds like. This varies from type of instrument - guitars not nearly as much as electronic drums, for example. 

 

After my several weeks of experiments and such, Radial and Countryman are the two brands I purchased. 

 

I left that gig many years ago - so when it came to spending my own cash for my gig rig, I'm well stocked with several Radial devices, and my current gig rig revolves around a Key Largo. Hope that helps you some.

Can you describe the way it sounds different?  Your perspective? 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

19 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

The cable is just wire with ends on it, beyond what cable does to signals it cannot change anything. 

That's what I meant.

Oh ok.  Yes of course.  I was saying that interface converter/interface could tell what was connected.  

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

5 hours ago, synthizen2 said:

I've been using a pair of Behringer Ultra-DI 400P's for about 5 years... and just a couple months ago, one of them went belly-up. So, I thought I'd just buy a replacement for the one that went bust.

 

But... just in the nick of time... that same Church Basement Flood that netted our band a whole sound system for free a couple months ago... also just netted me a free Radial PRO-D2 (a stereo DI)... as a bandmember overheard me about my broken DI, and said: "Here, try this". 

 

Surprisingly enough... with this DI (and all the other PA gear) having been submerged in water for a couple of weeks (and then dried out)... IT WORKED. YAY!

 

Very nice having a stereo DI so I don't have to have two mono DIs to deal with. And it sounds great!

 

Wow so it was submerged in water, and still worked after it dried off.  😆 That's a testimony! 

[KuruPrionz]

4 minutes ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Wow so it was submerged in water, and still worked after it dried off.  😆 That's a testimony! 

It makse sense to me. I was in a band that was booked to open for Buffy St. Marie at the Festival of the River down near Arlington WA.

We had our gear all set up and ready to go on a HUGE stage with a high roof and a gigantic PA system. 

5 minutes before start time, a torrential downpour of Biblical proportions completely soaked EVERYTHING. 

The sound guys turned everything off and unplugged everything. I grabbed my Peavey guitar amp since we were not going to play and had another gig later. 

When we got to the other gig, I wisely decided not to try and use my amp. I ended up playing the gig through an extra DI that the bassist brought, an Ampeg with a "Scrambler" distortion built in. 

Not my best tones but it did the job and we played the gig. 

 

The next morning I pulled the head on my Peavey, there was water inside. I dried it out, let it sit for 4 or 5 days, put it back together and it worked perfectly. 

Pretty sure if I'd fired it up at our second gig it would have been a disaster. Electronics can survive being wet if you don't try to pass current through them. Patience is key...

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

20 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

The cable is just wire with ends on it, beyond what cable does to signals it cannot change anything. 

That's what I meant.

Also, just still wondering that if the convertor knew the difference, it makes me wonder if it matters as far as processing, noise, etc....  Does going XLR to 1/4 out of the DI negate the fact that it's connected to a DI in the first place (reintroduce noise, take the sound quality improvement away....)

 

I've always gone with XLR out but a recent conversation has made me consider a few other options...

[KuruPrionz]

12 minutes ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Also, just still wondering that if the convertor knew the difference, it makes me wonder if it matters as far as processing, noise, etc....  Does going XLR to 1/4 out of the DI negate the fact that it's connected to a DI in the first place (reintroduce noise, take the sound quality improvement away....)

 

I've always gone with XLR out but a recent conversation has made me consider a few other options...

I run TRS to XLR and XLR to TRS sometimes. I haven't had any noise problems with that so far. 

There are aspects of cable runs that matter, one of those that I try to adhere to is keeping AC power cords away from audio cables. 

If AC and audio must be close then a 90 degree angle is much better than running them alongside. 

 

Recently I've had my cell phone make studio monitors create creepy, weird noises. It stops if I move the cell phone away. Weird.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

9 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

I run TRS to XLR and XLR to TRS sometimes. I haven't had any noise problems with that so far. 

There are aspects of cable runs that matter, one of those that I try to adhere to is keeping AC power cords away from audio cables. 

If AC and audio must be close then a 90 degree angle is much better than running them alongside. 

 

Recently I've had my cell phone make studio monitors create creepy, weird noises. It stops if I move the cell phone away. Weird.

I've heard that cell phone interference before too.  

 

And the way my desk is set up wires definitely run parallel.  Haven't had much noise issues except from two (unbalanced) keyboards (Korg m3 and a Yamaha MODX).  

 

As far as the trs to XLR and back, you do that from a DI?

[KuruPrionz]

58 minutes ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

As far as the trs to XLR and back, you do that from a DI?

As I posted above, my DIs are all Tech 21 and all of them can be run at microphone level powered by phantom power. I could still use them with 1/4" but I don't know of any interface that runs phantom power to anything but an XLR at microphone level, so no, I don't.

 

Mostly speakers, currently running my monitor speakers from TRS outputs on the interface into XLR inputs on the speakers. Works fine for me so far, other than the phone noise. I haven't done testing to see if the cables are the source of that noise or just the speakers pickng it up. Since the noise goes away when the cell phone is moved back, I just take the easy way out. 

[timwat]

10 hours ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Can you describe the way it sounds different?  Your perspective? 

 

Yes, I can as I remember it vividly. With V Drums, for example, other brands often choked the bottom end response and some of the dynamics - essentially leaving the net sound lifeless and lacking drive. Moving to either a Radial JDI duplex or a couple of Countryman Type 85s is like taking the blanket or "baffle" away and hearing a drummer in the same room. With keyboard played across the 88, things are more "alive" and fuller, with more "oomph" and similar. Not only was the difference undeniable to untrained ears, it was significant enough that the layman could pick it out in double blind. 

 

 

[analogman1]

I have the KL-8 racknount keyboard mixer.

Incredible piece of gear... I will never get rid of it!
Their stuff is expensive BUT worth every penny...

[cphollis]

Yes, you *can* hear the difference with better transformers, Jensen or otherwise.  Not being a MSEE, but I think it's all about the subtle EQ'd compression that's applied to the transients.  My JDI Duplex does things to percussive keys sounds that are nice to the ear.   Side note: guitarists who play with longer cables get used to a somewhat similar effect (treble attenuation) so there's a plugin for that

[NewImprov]

On 6/30/2022 at 2:32 PM, analogman1 said:

I have the KL-8 racknount keyboard mixer.

Incredible piece of gear... I will never get rid of it!
Their stuff is expensive BUT worth every penny...

I was pretty much going to say the same thing. I just recently upgraded to a KL-8, and it has solved so many problems in my rig, and it sounds great. Highly recommended.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

On 6/30/2022 at 4:32 PM, analogman1 said:

I have the KL-8 racknount keyboard mixer.

Incredible piece of gear... I will never get rid of it!
Their stuff is expensive BUT worth every penny...

So it serves like a DI right?!   What made you try it verses a traditional mixer or even a rack DI (by radial)?

 

What advantages does the keyboard mixer have?

[nursers]

6 minutes ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

So it serves like a DI right?!   What made you try it verses a traditional mixer or even a rack DI (by radial)?

 

What advantages does the keyboard mixer have?

It covers three things beautifully: DI, ability to merge up to 4 boards into one output and allows you to accept a FOH mix and monitor it and your mixed in boards via the headphones. Just love mine.

[analogman1]

Besides what Dr Nursers says, I also love the fact that it provides a phase free mono send.

So important, especially with my Nord Electro 5 D which really cant provide a suitable mono output without sacrificing a lot.

[allan_evett]

Did a gig last night, once again a Radial Pro D2 was the main link for FOH sound and personal monitoring.  I've had that Pro D2 for at least 10 years. And I'm taking a second look at the Key Largo, now.

Radial gear has always been rock solid.  I've worked with a lot of sound engineers that swear by their products.

 

I run one or two keys in mono to FOH, then connect the thru(s) to my powered cabinet, adjusting my listening level from there. It's been disruptive to reach down and adjust the volume on stage, so I'm reconsidering the Key Largo.  I'd initially rejected that idea a while back, when having an input channel for full-mix monitoring - but not routed to the mains - was critical (small act PA shortcomings, and at the time a single-input personal monitor).  It was suggested then  that I pick up a KL-8, but with my live rig being a no-rack, plug-n-play setup, I found that idea to be overkill.  The Key Largo does provide an independent monitor out with level control, so that could easily feed my stage cabinet, leaving its other channel available for a full-mix monitoring return, when needed. 

[NewImprov]

On 7/4/2022 at 6:21 AM, Dr Nursers said:

It covers three things beautifully: DI, ability to merge up to 4 boards into one output and allows you to accept a FOH mix and monitor it and your mixed in boards via the headphones. Just love mine.

And, additionally, it acts as a USB Audio interface, and it sounds great and has very low latency, so if you run virtual instruments, you can mix them with hardware instruments. 

 

Also, the ability to monitor in phase-free mono while sending a stereo feed to the house is pretty great. 

 

The KL-8 is, as far as I am concerned, the best mixer/DI/Interface  on the market for the gigging keyboardist.

[Mark Schmieder]

Been through a bunch of them over the years. I only sell them when my needs change, and usually it means I've bought a newer model that covers more of my bases and allows me to consolidate to a simpler setup.

 

Last summer, I got rid of all of my remaining rack gear, and sold all my radial boxes (PC, PZ, Re-amp, and Phono). I replaced them with a Cambridge Audio phono preamp and the latest edition of the rather large JDV mk V, which is an active single-channel direct box (I no longer need stereo), and has the best quality output of any DI box or DI output from a device/amp that I've ever experienced. I also like the large curved over-the-top carrying handle, and bought a nice SKB bag for it.

 

Just this minute, I ordered a used Radial EXTC-SA guitar effect active re-amp direct box -- mono edition. I debated the new stereo edition but found that only two of my effects pedals have stereo outputs and I always use them in mono anyway. Also, the actual tech specs on the new stereo box aren't as good as on the older mono box; compromises were made for the sake of functionality and a stereo signal.

 

I didn't think I needed this box at first, but I tried re-amping a bass part with the JDV last weekend and discovered that it isn't really compatible with that operation, due to its topology and partially because it is an active box. Yet I'll never go back to passive boxes now that I have experienced the gigantic headroom and more natural signal of transformerless active boxes. So I had already decided I'd go active if I got another re-amp box anyway.

 

Another cool thing about the ETC-SA is that it can also serve as a standard mono active direct box, or a standalone effects loop for using one's high impedance effects modules and pedals in a send/return from the computer vs. depending solely on plug-ins. One can also take a signal from any source and put it through effects before re-amping. It converts signals to unbalanced high impedance as-needed. A very clever design.

 

I still can't quite tell if there's feature parity with the stereo version or vice-versa as they're written up differently and Radial no longer gives complete specs for their gear. A case in point being that I only found out via a forum that they installed a 5kHz LPF on this box, and it can't be bypassed. They figured no one ever needs signal above 5 kHz when going through effects pedals anyway, and that it improves S/N ratio and headroom. They're probably right, but I imagine it also limits its use when it comes to keyboards, whether plugged in directly or processed from a pre-recorded track.

 

As it's been a few years since I gigged live with keys, I don't remember whether they always need a passive box or not. If so, the JDI Duplex that I sold years ago, is probably still the best bet, unless one finds a great keyboard stereo rack unit that includes a DI feature and also includes other useful features for keyboards.

[Mark Schmieder]

If looking at the used market, don't forget that Radial moved away from Jensen for a few years, due to supply chain issues, which in turn is a big reason they bought them. I don't remember which years off-hand, and the topic where I wrote about in detail, is probably difficult to locate at this point, but someone with more patience than I have might successfully locate the forum page, or did the old stuff get archived somewhere else (I forget)?

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

15 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

If looking at the used market, don't forget that Radial moved away from Jensen for a few years, due to supply chain issues, which in turn is a big reason they bought them. I don't remember which years off-hand, and the topic where I wrote about in detail, is probably difficult to locate at this point, but someone with more patience than I have might successfully locate the forum page, or did the old stuff get archived somewhere else (I forget)?

So does that mean that there are a few years where the JD6 used transformers that aren't Jensen?  Wow... seems like they would have had to CLEARLY state that.... 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

I emailed Radial just to ask them about the ability to use XLR to 1/4 inch cables to come out of the DI boxes/racks.  And they basically said, NOT to do it.  Use XLR to XLR.  

 

Here is a copy of the mail. 

 

THIS IS THE QUESTION THAT I ASKED:

I have a question concerning the ability to use XLR to 1/4 cables coming out of the DIs (into a console or audio interface).

I want to know if it defeats the purpose of having the DI, if it degrades the signal, if it's as robust as intended...

If anything at all negative could happen by using an XLR to 1/4 vs an XLR to XLR. 

AND THEIR RESPONSE WAS:

Thank you for your interest in Radial Engineering.

 

Typically, we recommend connecting DI boxes to mixers or audio interfaces via the use of XLR to XLR patch cables instead of XLR to TRS adapter cables. This is mainly due to the fact that the vast majority of 1/4" TRS input connections on mixers and interfaces are reserved for use with line level connections, while XLR input connections are usually mic level.

 

Since the outputs of DI boxes are almost always at mic level, connecting the outputs of DI boxes to XLR mic inputs on your mixer or interface will usually allow for the best results possible in terms of gain staging, noise floor, and overall signal quality. 

 

Kindest regards,

 

So, I got the answer straight from them.  I do believe that it would work... but I wanted to know if there was any risk at a negative effect on the signal, and there is.  

[KuruPrionz]

2 minutes ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

So, I got the answer straight from them.  I do believe that it would work... but I wanted to know if there was any risk at a negative effect on the signal, and there is.  

Line level is much higher than mic level. 

Turn up the level and your noise floor will go up as well. 

 

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

8 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

Line level is much higher than mic level. 

Turn up the level and your noise floor will go up as well. 

 

hopefully these expensive DI boxes/racks will help eliminate most of that problem.