My smallest key rig yet (iOS). For virtual piano nerds only (long, sorry)!

[Reezekeys]

In my quest to have an iPad rig I can enjoy doing smaller & simpler gigs that just need the basics - good acoustic piano, ep, organ and strings for padding – I recently sampled my Native Instruments "New York" piano using Logic's autosampler and imported the resulting .exs file into VirSyn's "AudioLayer" sampler app for iOS. This after buying Pure Piano, and trying Korg Module's Ivory piano (nice of them to give a demo period, I wish more devs did that). Neither of those did it for me, but I wound up a very happy camper with AudioLayer.

 

Recreating the Kontakt program exactly wasn't a goal. The New York Piano is almost 3GB of samples. I'm guessing it uses Kontakt's scripting to activate sustain samples and to trigger specific key-off samples. No way was I going to get that detailed. The question for me was if I could get a workable version that would make me happy on a gig. The answer is yes, and I found out a few things along the way.

 

The VirSyn version I made has no sustain resonance samples, no key-off samples, and no pedal noise samples. I didn't bother looping the samples either. I'm not sure the Kontakt versions' samples are looped - I think they're just very long; I set the autosampler to record 10-second long samples. Perhaps the biggest difference is that the Kontakt version has every semitone sampled with ten layers. I opted to sample every three semitones, meaning I stretch each sample up & down one semitone. I also didn't sample the very top layer, which on the Kontakt version encompasses only the last few velocity steps (something like 123-127).

 

All in all, my resulting piano has 270 samples totaling 644mb. Of course, such a cut-down piano should be instantly evident when A/B'ing to the "real" version, right? Well I nerded out and below is a one-minute video with both versions alternating. See what you think, but imo it's pretty damn close and certainly good enough for any gig in a band situation. Since I know what I'm listening for, I do hear differences at home wearing cans. Through speakers in a club? I'll find out soon, but I suspect I'll be just fine.

 

The kicker is that while I plan to use this in AUM on my iPad Air 2, for grins I got my original iPhone SE from my old phone graveyard and loaded it there. That's what's on the video. AudioLayer ran just fine on this 6-year-old 32GB phone, with more than acceptable latency performance. Of course having a regular headphone output is a major plus. On the iPad I loaded this up next to Pure Piano and did some A/B'ing... it's not even close. PP was completely smoked by my piano, in my opinion of course. Kicker #2 - I'm powering both the phone and my A800 Pro keyboard from a 10,000mah battery pack. I connected it this morning and left everything on all day. Right now, eleven hours later, the charge indicator on this battery pack is at 3/4.

 

Sorry for the usual novel-length post. I hope you enjoy my attempt at playing what Frank Zappa called "the music of unemployment" 🙂 , just one improvised chorus on an old Dave Brubeck chestnut that's not Take Five! I repeat the last few seconds so the two pianos can be compared using the same source material - I think one might more easily hear the sonic differences between them with these held and sustained notes.

 

 

 

 

[yannis D]

The sound both nice - BTW I like the Bill Evans voicings here (I don't remember the song's title, but I remember Evans has recoded it, right?)

IMO in a band context no one can tell any difference between these sounds. And I would add the Ravenscrodt and the Korg Module internal piano I use in my iPad. They all sound convincing. One can only tell a difference hearing a solo piano version and, again, studio kind.

But it sounds nice and this is what is the whole point about    

 

[Dockeys]

In your own sweet way? That’s a nice demo. Hard for me to discern any big difference between them to be honest. I’ve been looking at using the cp73 in tandem with the iPad so might dip my toes in the water with Virsyn. Lovely playing by the way. 

[Al Quinn]

Beautiful playing Rob! The iOS version sounds great. Is the battery pack required or can a fully charged iPhone or iPad provide enough power for a gig?

[Reezekeys]

Thanks guys. Yes, In Your Own Sweet Way - listening more, I think I might have had a bit too much coffee before recording this!

 

On the Kontakt version, pressing the sustain pedal fades in an additional sample of the strings resonating. You can vary the level of this sample layer, or turn it off. I'm pretty sure most if not all higher-end VST pianos do this. The New York Piano is ancient; as some might know, it started as part of NI's "Akoustik Piano" plugin which dates to 2005! I like it because the samples are very close-miked and work better on a gig through my speakers. On recordings I'm using their current model, the "Grandeur." It's a more detailed piano with additional parameters and a superior treble. I'm not sure why, but it just doesn't work on a gig, at all. This might be pilot error so I might try messing with the sound a bit. The NY Piano has been my go-to since I started bringing a laptop to gigs 16 years ago and I haven't felt the need to jump ship. And now, I have it on a phone!

 

1 hour ago, Al Quinn said:

Is the battery pack required or can a fully charged iPhone or iPad provide enough power for a gig?

 

In my case, to power both the i-device and my Roland keyboard, I do need help. The A800 draws 300ma. If I power the keyboard separately from the iPad then it's not an issue. That would involve the wall-wart though - so having the battery pack obviates the need to have an outlet nearby, or an AC extension cord. My iPad is old and it has the original battery; it's possible that a new iPad with a fresh battery could power everything, but I'm not sure I'd want to risk it. My 10,000mah battery pack is small enough to not be a burden. I disconnected it late last night - it had been powering my iPhone SE and A800 for about 13 hours and was at half-charge.

[Reezekeys]

16 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

Nice Rob ! You're playing In your own sweet way a half step down, first chord an Abm7b5. Any particular reason ? Just taking it through different keys ?

Thanks Dave, yes a half-step down. I figured I'd keep myself occupied during the pandemic months, so got on a jag of playing familiar tunes in unfamiliar keys. It's nice, I find myself going for different subs and voicings, and the tunes sound a little fresher to my ears too. LOOK MA, NO TRANSPOSE BUTTON! 🙂 

[jarrell]

Nice playing (and judicious use of octave button near the end)!

[David Emm]

Reeze, that was not only a lovely performance, but a big +1 for Autosampler. I get added depth from synthesizers by sampling at greater intervals, as you described. Its not unlike tweaking a filter envelope carefully to provide the illusion of touch sensitivity in a non-t.s instrument. I've also learned how hit-or-miss it is to sample something that features a lot of portamento or built-in tremolo. I make side notes to add those things after the fact. The success rate is so high it almost feels like a venal sin. 😲

 

Your post is like proof-of-concept for how well the system will translate piano as the holiest of grails. Nice work! 👍

[Reezekeys]

Thanks David! I'm not sure my piano was harder to sample than a synth would be - I'm not doing much programming here. I tried to find the exact velocities the sample layers switched and set Autosampler to those same numbers. However the sound evolved was a simple function of louder velocities triggering louder and brighter samples, not opening filters or increasing VCA amplitude with velocity. But your point of using those tools to create a touch-sensitive recreation of a non-ts synth is a good one. I was thinking of doing just that very soon, and will probably compare using the samplers's filters vs velocity-switched multisamples of the actual filter on the synth plugin itself to see how similar or not they are, and which version I prefer.

 

I did run into a snag with AudioLayer - it quit on me a few times when running as an AU in AUM. I've had it loaded as an IAA plugin the last few days and it's been fine. That's a bit of a bummer as an AU can have multiple instances loaded while an IAA can only be instantiated once (at least that how it appears; if I'm wrong someone please correct me). This could be due to the size of my AUM session vs the limitations of my old iPad Air 2 - I'm not sure where the fault is. I'm still stoked to have my regular piano sound happening on my original tiny iPhone SE - with quite acceptable latency as well (AUM is set to 256 samples but it feels like the 128 samples setting I use on my Mac with Kontakt, maybe even a bit less).

 

jarrell - thanks, yes working the octave transpose buttons has become almost second nature! I play this 61-key plastic keyboard way more than any weighted action 88 - be it a DP or a real piano.

[Reezekeys]

A correction (my time window to edit the post above was over): I just realized that on my iPhone SE I'm not running AudioLayer in AUM at all - it's running standalone with nothing else active. I searched but could not find a buffer size setting in AudioLayer! So my earlier mention of 256 samples is wrong, that's the setting I use in AUM on my iPad. I have no idea what the buffer size is on my iPhone – but whatever it is, it's quite low and the piano feels good to play.

[sunspot]

Awesome news, thanks for sharing your setup!  Another reason I'll be hanging onto my original iPhone SE and iPad Mini 5 with their dedicated 3.5 audio jacks until whatever dies first, them or me.

[Reezekeys]

Yes the original SE may just be (or already is?) a kind of cult favorite since no other Apple phone since has duplicated its tiny form factor; even the newer iPhone "minis" are bigger. And the headphone jack is a major plus for anyone like us using it to host instruments. Like you, I'll be keeping this phone as long as possible. I've heard the next iOS won't be installable, but as long as my music apps can work with the most recent version that runs, this is a gem of a device and a perfect "emergency" piano!

 

On another front, I had reported earlier in this thread that my 10,000maH battery pack powered the SE and my Roland controller for over 13 hours. I tried this experiment with my iPad Air 2 instead of the phone and got five hours of use  – enough for almost any gig I'd do. Since I have three of those battery packs it would be easy to pack a spare. For this test I was running ForScore and iReal Pro as well as AUM.

[dsteinschneider]

I know someone I convinced to hang on to their 32GB 6SE iPhone who will give it to me.

 

I've tried to build something like this on the Android platform. I was successful with GSI VB3m but for piano the best I could do was the IK iGrand and iLectric which are enough to get by but not great. The worst issue is I couldn't use external power with the Pixel 4a I was using while it's USB port is connected to USB for the keyboard. 

 

The A800 looks perfect for the job. I'm using an Axiom 61 1st Gen and a NanoKontrol for the drawbars. 

 

Which external battery are you using with the SE?

 

One more question - do you think the IOS IK B-3X would run on OK on the SE?

[AnotherScott]

39 minutes ago, dsteinschneider said:

do you think the IOS IK B-3X would run on OK on the SE?

I believe B-3X is iPad only, not iPhone. It's built around the full screen interface,

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, dsteinschneider said:

I know someone I convinced to hang on to their 32GB 6SE iPhone who will give it to me.

 

I've tried to build something like this on the Android platform. I was successful with GSI VB3m but for piano the best I could do was the IK iGrand and iLectric which are enough to get by but not great. The worst issue is I couldn't use external power with the Pixel 4a I was using while it's USB port is connected to USB for the keyboard. 

 

The A800 looks perfect for the job. I'm using an Axiom 61 1st Gen and a NanoKontrol for the drawbars. 

 

Which external battery are you using with the SE?

 

One more question - do you think the IOS IK B-3X would run on OK on the SE?

 

Apple's USB3 CCK dongle (shown in the poster frame of my video) lets me connect power and USB. There are knockoffs on Ebay and Amazon that add more ports (I've seen some with HDMI, others with 3.5mm audio) but those can be problematic. Too bad Apple doesn't make a CCK that includes a 3.5mm audio output jack - that complicates things for anyone with newer i-devices that lack headphone jacks. For that reason I'm thankful I have an older iPad (Air 2) and my 2016 SE, but I know that spec-wise I'll probably hit the wall sooner if I add more VIs or processing plugins. So far my AUM setup on my iPad has 37 "nodes" that include four instances of Korg Module (piano, clav, strings and Scarbee Rhodes), one instance of AudioLayer with my Native Instruments piano, and seven additional channels, each with a different playalong file. AUM's buffer is at 256 samples. I'm probably not working the processor too hard right now, but to have decent sounds with low latency that get me through the informal jazz/r&b/funk gigs I do, in such a compact form factor compared to my laptop in its SKB rack case, is making me happy.

 

As far as external batteries, I've bought a few Chinese brand-du-jour 10,000 mAh packs when they've gone on special so can't really comment on or recommend any in particular. They've all seemed to work OK when I've needed them to. This is one of them -

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TWN78VJ/

 

Good luck with that SE - hold onto it!

[Jose EB5AGV]

I am happy I took the plunge and bought a second iPad Air 2 (128GB) just some weeks ago. My idea was to pair it with my other one and use ForScore in dual page mode. But it has now evolved to use it also as a VI host, and the 3.5mm jack helps to easily integrate it on my rig. Cost was 190€, so it seems a good buying

[dsteinschneider]

14 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I believe B-3X is iPad only, not iPhone. It's built around the full screen interface,

Thanks, I now recall reading that myself - I'm mostly on PC and Android so don't pay as much attention to IOS announcements. 

[Reezekeys]

Just came back from my first gig with the iPad playing the piano featured in my video above. Up until today I was only listening to it through headphones at home, not through my QSC K8s. Happy to say it sounds fine through the speakers and feels as good to play as the full Kontakt version on my laptop – so I am officially done bringing the laptop to local gigs now. The Scarbee rhodes in Korg Module is a little less satisfying to me due to it's lack of bark but I'm gonna live with it for now.

 

I did try running AudioLayer as an AU rather than IAA, hoping for the best but it shit the bed on me again – however it waited until almost the very end of my 5-hour gig! I have the free Korg Module piano in my AUM setup so quickly switched to that. I'm gonna hit VirSyn's support or forums and see if I can get some answers. This in annoying but not a deal-breaker for these kinds of gigs; I was able to reload AudioLayer and get my New York Piano running in a few seconds. I guess I'll try running AudioLayer in IAA mode & see what happens - it hasn't quit on me yet doing it that way.

[yannis D]

8 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Just came back from my first gig with the iPad playing the piano featured in my video above. Up until today I was only listening to it through headphones at home, not through my QSC K8s. Happy to say it sounds fine through the speakers and feels as good to play as the full Kontakt version on my laptop – so I am officially done bringing the laptop to local gigs now. The Scarbee rhodes in Korg Module is a little less satisfying to me due to it's lack of bark but I'm gonna live with it for now.

 

I did try running AudioLayer as an AU rather than IAA, hoping for the best but it shit the bed on me again – however it waited until almost the very end of my 5-hour gig! I have the free Korg Module piano in my AUM setup so quickly switched to that. I'm gonna hit VirSyn's support or forums and see if I can get some answers. This in annoying but not a deal-breaker for these kinds of gigs; I was able to reload AudioLayer and get my New York Piano running in a few seconds. I guess I'll try running AudioLayer in IAA mode & see what happens - it hasn't quit on me yet doing it that way.

Man 5 hours gig is too much  This is the point here, not the ipad 

[Reezekeys]

7 hours ago, yannis D said:

Man 5 hours gig is too much  This is the point here, not the ipad

 

This was Mother's Day in the USA. I played at a private club for their brunch and they had multiple "seatings" throughout the day, hence the long hours. Solo piano, but decent money and – the part I like best – they leave you alone to play whatever you like (within reason - I didn't do my Cecil Taylor medley!). The second-best part? I stuffed my face with sushi and lobster tail.

 

These are the kinds of gigs I use as "test beds" for when I make changes to my setup. I confess that I brought my laptop, just in case of any issues with the iPad. It stayed in the car. The one problem with AudioLayer quitting on me mid-song was easily dealt with but made me realize the iPad is, for the moment, only for local gigs, not touring.

[AnotherScott]

9 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

The one problem with AudioLayer quitting on me mid-song was easily dealt with but made me realize the iPad is, for the moment, only for local gigs, not touring.

 

Hopefully you get to the bottom of it. But as an extension of the oft-mentioned benefit of having 2 boards so you can always keep playing if something goes down, as long as the problems are sufficiently rare, I think a touring scenario is fine, if you're playing from a board that has its own sounds to fall back on at a moment's notice if need be.

[Reezekeys]

I've been at this way longer than I like to admit, and have somehow made it this far without feeling the need to bring a second board. As I said, the keyboard wasn't the issue with my recent problem - it was one slot in my AUM setup and was easy to deal with. I did pack along my little iPhone SE too, in case anything happened to the iPad. But, a second board - no, not for me. And when I tour with AWB there is no second board in case my A800 goes down. Our sax player used to get a Motif to play aux keyboards, so I would normally have that to use in an emergency. For various reasons he doesn't play aux keys anymore, but I never needed his anyway. Ironically, I had more problems when I first joined the band and was getting rented Motifs or Fantoms (before I got United Gold status and could bring my A800 for $0). I had two instances of burned-out LCDs and one time when we got on stage at a "throw 'n go" festival and discovered the keyboard was completely dead.

 

I've toyed with the idea of getting something like a Numa Compact 2 or 2X for the option of leaving the i-devices, laptops, dongles, etc. home when I just need a basic piano. Thing is that the iPad setup I just started with isn't much of a bear to deal with, compared to setting up my laptop in its SKB case. It might be fun to have 88 keys for a change though. I wish I could rent or borrow one of those to see if I'd be happy with the onboard pianos.

 

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Hopefully you get to the bottom of it

 

I have a suspicion that the "bottom of it" may involve a newer iPad! 🙂 

[stoken6]

32 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

've toyed with the idea of getting something like a Numa Compact 2 or 2X for the option of leaving the i-devices, laptops, dongles, etc. home when I just need a basic piano. Thing is that the iPad setup I just started with isn't much of a bear to deal with, compared to setting up my laptop in its SKB case. It might be fun to have 88 keys for a change though. I wish I could rent or borrow one of those to see if I'd be happy with the onboard pianos.

Of course the Numa plays nicely with iPads: one cable MIDI-out-and-audio-in.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

31 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

I did pack along my little iPhone SE too, in case anything happened to the iPad. But, a second board - no, not for me.

I get it... and to be clear, I wasn't actually recommending a second board here, it was just an analogy. That is, for a hardware-only player, a second board provides instant backup. For a single-board-plus-computer/iPad scenario, the instant backup could be sounds that are built into the board. It's just that either way, for emergency use, it's nice to have some second source you can switch to really quickly. 

[Reezekeys]

I guess everyone has their own "risk threshold" for carrying extra gear as backup. Mine is based on the years I've spent doing this and the experiences I've had. I know we've had threads about this very subject, so no need to re-hash here. But yea, statistically I might have a higher risk of someday being high & dry on a gig with no way to make sound. Hasn't happened yet. Did I just jinx myself? 🙂