Bass Player and Keyboardist Playing Low Notes

[Moonglow]

Sorry if this has been posted before, but a bass player friend in one of my bands sent this to me and it gave me a chuckle. Not sure if he was trying to send me a message...

 

 

 

 

[Docbop]

As the bass legend Ron Carter tells piano players he works with....   Stay between the S's in Steinway and Sons. 

[cassdad]

Yeah, it’s a problem.

[KuruPrionz]

Right up there with anybody in the band soloing while the singer is singing. 

 

The bass and the drummer are (presumably) trying to lock a groove. Adding more low notes can and will confuse both of them, it's just un-needed clutter. 

[MathOfInsects]

Obviously I will completely agree that the proper place for your left hand in a band situation is "between the S's" or on your lap. You do not need to root out chords or play what you'd play when you are solo, and if you do, it will sound like warm turd and piss everyone off.

BUT...

 

I also think we've gone a little extreme about this. Piano and bass sound great together, particularly on low ostinati, and there are even times when a low piano note or other sort of basement tone can not just be "allowable," but also make the song better. Sometimes this is when the bass has something higher and riffier at that moment and you might want to slip below it to ground the tune. Other times it's just a thing the piano is going to do at that moment because that's what the song wants there, and it's OK that bass also exists in that range. You're not taking over, you're just producing that tone or timbre because the song wants it for a second.

To be sure, depending on context I might look over at the bass player to let him know that I know I'm walking through his yard for a second. But as long as you're not playing frisbee there all night, most guys aren't as militant about these occasional "walks" as we fear. We're all listening to what the song wants and if that sounds good right there, all for the better.

[mynameisdanno]

I know this is one of those 80/20 things, but it grinds my gears when people talk about this like it's some absolute rule.   It depends on the music and the players, of course.  I always loved Richard Tee on this topic... "if there's a bass player there, then there's gonna be two bass players, my left hand and him... that's just me, I can't help it, and I doubt very seriously whether it will ever change."

 

@ 11:53

 

 

 

One of my favorite things in the world playing country music is to link right up with a bass player.  This was common back in the day but sometimes harder to hear on the old recordings.  Here's a modern recording with one of the originating masters of the style, Pig Robbins, linking right up with Dennis Crouch.  Tell me that doesn't groove.  You just gotta take a few minutes and agree on the line and hook it up.

 

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

I fully agree that it "can sound great" but as both advocates point out, it takes focus, precision and I will add - a solid understanding of the value of silence. 

Maybe Richard Tee doesn't need a bassist, that's fine too. 

 

I've tracked 2 basses on a recording because I wanted them there. There are many lovely symphonies with multiple bass parts, arranged to sound just so and no other way. Works for me. 

 

What I've noticed many times is that most musicians do a fair amount of practicing by themselves and often keyboard players and have bass lines that have become bad habits - they get played because that's how they roll. I've been in a few bands and at a few jams where that's obviously the case. 

 

I've also been in 3 piece bands where the keyboardist's left hand is the bass. Sounded fine, maybe not quite as expressive as a great bassist but plenty enough to get people on the dance floor. 

[MAJUSCULE]

I've been rude about this before, I'll stay out of it this time.  

[The Real MC]

The last band I was in, they had seen my website and they asked if I really owned Moog Taurus bass pedals.  The singer wanted me to use them, the bass player wanted me to use them, the soundman wanted me to use them.  I had never seen a band so excited about Taurus pedals.  And this was classic rock...

Being a bass player myself, I'm conscious enough to stay out of the bass player's way so I approached the use of Taurus pedals as a special effect or an accent.  

 

They encouraged me to find places for that famous Taurus low end oomph.  The synth breakdown in Journey's "Separate Ways", the low D in the chorus on AC/DC "Highway To Hell" (!), piano intro to "On The Dark Side", an Ozzy Osbourne song, a really thick layer of Taurus and CS-80 pad intro to some songs, last song of the set I'd let the Taurus decay on the last note after the band cut off and the singer says don't go away we'll be back for more...  bass player never complained, soundman loved to pump that low end through his subwoofers, singer loved to feel the radiated low end.

It only works in moderation, and with musical taste.

 

One of the very few times I doubled the bass guitar on piano was SRV "Crossfire".  The piano sound I used is high passed to remove most of the fundamental, so the low piano notes are mostly inharmonics.  The layer effect worked.

 

Now playing low notes on a Clavinet in a funky style... that's an art.

[benj2017]

17 minutes ago, MAJUSCULE said:

I've been rude about this before, I'll stay out of it this time.  

Ha ha, come on. We're all keys players here right?

 

14 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

One of the very few times I doubled the bass guitar on piano was SRV "Crossfire".  The piano sound I used is high passed to remove most of the fundamental, so the low piano notes are mostly inharmonics.  The layer effect worked.

 

Now playing low notes on a Clavinet in a funky style... that's an art.

 

So I like to play octaves in my LH for acoustic piano in pop/rock settings but not as a bassline, just holding the root.  I also think the low-end of a clav, wurly, or rhodes can be great in a band context. Usually what I do is try to get my amp off the floor, roll of frequencies below 80-100hz, and make sure the sound guy isn't sending my keys to the sub. The low-bass knob on the motion sound is useful for this too.

 

I have a couple friends who do pro-sound at big venues nationally and they often put a high pass filter on the keys if there is too much mud. This can sound good or bad depending. I saw Dr. John at the Wilbur Theatre in Boston in 2015 and his piano sounded terrible through the PA, probably for this reason.

 

But to be crystal clear, I would never play anything super busy or double the bass player unless it was worked out beforehand as an effect.

[Iconoclast]

I high pass all my piano sounds unless I'm solo with the singer.  I usually shelf it pretty hard at 80-120 hz. Actually do the same with a lot of my guitar rhythm tones for the same reason.
 

I don't with low synth tones though as they usually tend to be a little tighter in the frequency spectrum and don't bloom as much, so there's way less conflict (depending on a lot of other variables though).

I think a lot of bass players could certainly work to get a tighter tone that doesn't take up as much of the freq spectrum. That would help. But talking that kind of subject with a bass player will get you a dog-looking-at-a-wristwatch kinda response frequently.

[MathOfInsects]

54 minutes ago, MAJUSCULE said:

I've been rude about this before, I'll stay out of it this time.  

Do it.

[miden]

Wherever the music takes you, that's what you play - too, too many rules - just create and be done!

[funkyhammond]

 

😁

Just having some fun. For the record, I love good bass players.

[Steve Nathan]

5 hours ago, mynameisdanno said:

I know this is one of those 80/20 things, but it grinds my gears when people talk about this like it's some absolute rule.   It depends on the music and the players, of course.  I always loved Richard Tee on this topic... "if there's a bass player there, then there's gonna be two bass players, my left hand and him... that's just me, I can't help it, and I doubt very seriously whether it will ever change."

 

@ 11:53

 

 

 

One of my favorite things in the world playing country music is to link right up with a bass player.  This was common back in the day but sometimes harder to hear on the old recordings.  Here's a modern recording with one of the originating masters of the style, Pig Robbins, linking right up with Dennis Crouch.  Tell me that doesn't groove.  You just gotta take a few minutes and agree on the line and hook it up.

 

 

If I had a nickel for every time I played something like this......Oh wait....I do!    Notice the piano fills are overdubbed so the groove never lets up. This style also has a lot of colorful "Country" descriptions for how to play your left hand with the bass, including my favorite (which happens about a half dozen times in this track), the "Bucket a Fish".  

 

[KuruPrionz]

I'll just add that I record the band I'm in with a Tascam DR40 - any modern portable digital recorder should do the trick and get a gorilla pod so you can put it somewhere fairly out of the way. 

 

I post it to bandmembers via WeTransfer. I don't say anything beyond "here it is."

Over time, every member of the band (including me) has become a better part of the ensemble. 

 

Most of us can solve our own problems if we hear how it sounds in context. Nothing to do with rules but 45+ years in on gigging I do have vivid memories of those who impress, both good and bad.

 

Not sure why y'all get so twitchy?

 

There are lots of classic cliche musician bumbles, guitarists who know 5 licks (sort of) and take 3 minute solos, drummers who speed up, WAY up, players who solo over the vocalist, players who sing unison and think it's "harmony", keyboardists with overly busy left hands and plenty more. 

 

I've heard them all and caused many of them myself, not pleading innocent or looking down. It's more about getting better, music is an infnite mountain and climb though we may the peak eludes us. Our habits define us and are difficult to relinquish. It takes time. 

 

Keep on climbing brothers and sisters, it's the journey not the destination!!!!! 

[Tom Williams]

Perhaps the wrong thread, but Keith Emerson's LH  doubling the bass often annoyed me.  Sometimes they would even clash, as in the second-to-last note of Pictures at an Exhibition, where there is a minor third (3 and 5) in the low register.

[MathOfInsects]

What's the Bucket a Fish?

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

What's the Bucket a Fish?

I'm just singin' in the rain...

[ProfD]

Thank goodness for funky music where low KB notes are welcomed. Of course, it still has to be tastefully done.

 

I think like a bass player and often play LH bass but I know when to turn off my inner Willie Weeks and Pino Palladino. It also sets a bar for bass players too. 

 

The good *problem* I have is bassists will want me to play bass while they hang out between frets 14-22. 😁

 

Otherwise, keys and bass can coexist very well and add extra weight to the low end theory.😎

[yannis D]

Playing bass notes along with a bass player is one thing. But trying to play bass lines against him is another and better to be avoided IMO. 

I would say if a keys player is not playing rootless chords it's better to accentuate some basic bass notes just like some organist are doing with their feet when their left hand is playing the bass, and let the bassist do the job with the interval or the passing notes 

[CyberGene]

How do you play rootless chords in a hard rock or heavy metal band? For instance, if we’re on the C power chord, should I only play G?

[yannis D]

4 hours ago, CyberGene said:

How do you play rootless chords in a hard rock or heavy metal band? For instance, if we’re on the C power chord, should I only play G?

In such a context i would double the guitar's 5ths - maybe with the 5th as the root note and vice versa

[KuruPrionz]

15 hours ago, benj2017 said:

Ha ha, come on. We're all keys players here right?

 

But to be crystal clear, I would never play anything super busy or double the bass player unless it was worked out beforehand as an effect.

Well, maybe not ALL... 😇

[octa]

guess there are too many variables (sound being used, type of music, # of players) to have a strict rule but if it's a jazz trio, single low notes seem to work fine. Levine talkin' about it: 

 

[ABECK]

6 hours ago, yannis D said:

Playing bass notes along with a bass player is one thing. But trying to play bass lines against him is another and better to be avoided IMO. 

I would say if a keys player is not playing rootless chords it's better to accentuate some basic bass notes just like some organist are doing with their feet when their left hand is playing the bass, and let the bassist do the job with the interval or the passing notes 

Rootless chords allow for much more interesting extensions, but damn if it isn't hard to play around the root.  I've conditioned myself to always have that home base represented somewhere in my chords.  Tough habit to break.

 

[ProfD]

2 minutes ago, ABECK said:

Rootless chords allow for much more interesting extensions, but damn if it isn't hard to play around the root.  I've conditioned myself to always have that home base represented somewhere in my chords.  Tough habit to break.

 

There's nothing wrong with touch and go on the root and/or having that home base represented in the chords.  The main thing is keeping a governor on that left hand when a real bass player is present. 😎

[yannis D]

10 minutes ago, ABECK said:

Rootless chords allow for much more interesting extensions, but damn if it isn't hard to play around the root.  I've conditioned myself to always have that home base represented somewhere in my chords.  Tough habit to break.

 

IMO rootless does not mean to erase totally the root note, but to sneak it somewhere inside the chord and leave the root to the bass. I play the note inside the chord. Let's don't forget that the concept or the rootless chords itself started out of the problems in the old jazz recordings where seldom the bass player could not be heard and was slightly out of tune, so a root chord with the piano would create a catastrohpy. Nowdays it's not a big problem IMO

[Stokely]

Agreed and it can be applied to other combinations, as mentioned in posts above.

Keyboards and guitars are perpetually at risk of clashing in the same frequency ranges.  I stay out of his way when he's soloing (whether by volume or by choosing a different octave) and he stays (mostly) out of my way though I very, very rarely solo

I remember one noodling solo player in a 2-guitar band (NEVER AGAIN!).  He not only noodled over and around vocal lines, he'd double my rare chances to stand out with signature keyboard melodies.  Super annoying. I'm like, dude there's a ****ing guitar solo in just about every song and you feel the need to cover over my paltry moments.

The only time I might be tempted to play low notes would be for special effects on intros etc, but then again the bass player looks at these as HIS chance to shine!  I've actually been using the master EQ on my Forte to take a bit of low end off, so that affects every single patch.

[KuruPrionz]

2 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Agreed and it can be applied to other combinations, as mentioned in posts above.

Keyboards and guitars are perpetually at risk of clashing in the same frequency ranges.  I stay out of his way when he's soloing (whether by volume or by choosing a different octave) and he stays (mostly) out of my way though I very, very rarely solo

I remember one noodling solo player in a 2-guitar band (NEVER AGAIN!).  He not only noodled over and around vocal lines, he'd double my rare chances to stand out with signature keyboard melodies.  Super annoying.

The only time I might be tempted to play low notes would be for special effects on intros etc, but then again the bass player looks at these as HIS chance to shine!  

I saw Ray Charles twice. Both times with a huge band - 20+ people on stage. At any given moment there were usually more people NOT playing than playing. Every single note was intentional and had meaning. The level of charting and rehearsal goes so far beyond the usual gig format down here in the trenches that I simply mention it in passing. 

I'm not afraid to turn my guitar all the way down and either stand there or pretend I'm playing. I'm not afraid of silence. I'm also not afraid to find a part that doesn't cover another part, a friend told me once "Whatever I play, don't play that." and it's good general advice for all band members. Guitar doesn't have quite the total tonal range that most keyboards have but there is usually room for both if both listen and adapt. Sometimes it's as simple as alternating your silences in time with the music. Or, keys go high, I shift to the middle, keys go middle, I shift up to the higher registers. 

 

None of this is difficult or cryptic if everybody just listens when they play.