B-3X quirks

[funkyhammond]

On 4/8/2022 at 10:29 AM, Al Coda said:

Overemphasized drawbar harmonics,-

I used the default preset "Hammond B3-X", went on the "advanced" page and swapped the 4 organ/tonewheel models.

IMO there´s slight overemphasis recognizable w/ all the models,-. but on different keys,- and the 3. 1956 B3  introduces the most of.

It might also come from different Leslie amps and cabinets as also interaction  w/ Hiwatt- and Marshall sims and cabs,- and I´m not sure if it qualifies for a bug.

 

Yup, I had tried the four organ models and had only noticed a slight difference. But as my post above states, I forgot to play around with the cabinets. Silly me.

[funkyhammond]

On 4/8/2022 at 11:05 AM, EscapeRocks said:

Again, I'll jump onto the rig later today and see about some of these quirks mentioned.

 

That would be nice to get a confirmation on the Mac. The main thing is the percussion. For some strange reason the Fast/Slow percussion decay also affects the volume of the percussion. Most people probably just leave the percussion decay on Fast so I could see the issue going unnoticed for a while. If you don't notice the issue, also check which version you are using in case it's not the latest. There's always a chance it could be a new bug.

[mobi]

13 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

For some strange reason the Fast/Slow percussion decay also affects the volume of the percussion. Most people probably just leave the percussion decay on Fast so I could see the issue going unnoticed for a while

 

 

Did you try the Volume compensation switch in Advanced mode (percussion settings)?

[Al Coda]

5 hours ago, mobi said:

 

 

Did you try the Volume compensation switch in Advanced mode (percussion settings)?

 

I tried several times !

Percussion volume compensation in advanced mode doesn´t change the behaviour of "fast/slow" perc decay switch.

Once perc decay is set to slow, perc volume drops.

It´s a bug.

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

22 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

Yup, I had tried the four organ models and had only noticed a slight difference. But as my post above states, I forgot to play around with the cabinets. Silly me.

 

Not enough, even minor "stomp box" graphic EQ settings and "post FX" EQ81 settings have impact on drawbar harmonics emphasis.

[Baldwin Funster]

The hammond rack module the XM2 had a problem with this. Certain notes would POP OUT with a major jolt and it was un-tameable. Maybe through a real wood leslie it was OK but I never was able to try it that way. 

[funkyhammond]

34 minutes ago, Al Coda said:

 

Not enough, even minor "stomp box" graphic EQ settings and "post FX" EQ81 settings have impact on drawbar harmonics emphasis.

 

What do you mean, not enough? What's not enough? I already reported that I tested the organ in DI mode and didn't notice any significant issue with the tonewheels themselves. And the different cabinets are emphasizing different frequencies, which is to be expected, but not to the point of sticking out like a sore thumb. Admittedly, I haven't had a chance to spend a huge amount of time with it, but my initial attempt at using the Leslie EQ to tame that 'E-note' resonance in the 122 did help. I set the Q to be fully narrow and then found the mid frequency (somewhere around 9 o'clock). I put the gain also at about 9 o'clock from what I remember. I didn't want to cut it too much and create the opposite problem. It didn't work perfectly, but it seemed to work well enough. I'd have to spend more time with it to see how well it worked in a greater context of playing. But I only have a couple of days left of the demo and I'm not sure how much more time I will have to play with it.

 

I just wanted to give the B-3X a test run in case I want to consider it down the road. I do like some aspects of the organ engine a tiny bit more than the VB3-II (like the chorus presence boost -- something strangely missing from many clonewheels) but they are both very good. I might have to wait till I buy a new laptop to use B-3X glitch-free with confidence (one of the things I was actually testing) but if I wind up buying the SK Pro, it may be all moot.

[funkyhammond]

8 hours ago, mobi said:

 

Did you try the Volume compensation switch in Advanced mode (percussion settings)?

 

Like Al Coda says, that has a different purpose. It's to disable the normal behaviour of the drawbars going quieter when the percussion is set to loud/normal. But, yes, I also tried the volume compensation just in case it was some weird bug with that. Are you not noticing the bug I reported with the decay switch also affecting the percussion volume? Are you on a Mac?

[EscapeRocks]

On 4/9/2022 at 9:41 PM, funkyhammond said:

 

That would be nice to get a confirmation on the Mac. The main thing is the percussion. For some strange reason the Fast/Slow percussion decay also affects the volume of the percussion. Most people probably just leave the percussion decay on Fast so I could see the issue going unnoticed for a while. If you don't notice the issue, also check which version you are using in case it's not the latest. There's always a chance it could be a new bug.

Finally had a chance to test

 

B3X. Ver. 1.3.4

Setup:

Upper Manual Only

888800000

Switches:

Vol Normal

Vib Swell On

Vib Great On

Chorus C3

Perc On

Perc Volume Soft

Perc Decay Fast 

Perc Harmonic Third

Cab = Leslie 122A

Leslie On/Slow

 This was my initial setup

 

I played and held some single notes while changing Decay from Fast to Slow.    I could not perceive a difference

I then changed Perc volume to Normal and did the same test.    Again, no difference switching Decay fast/slow

Reset to initial state

 

Turned off/Brake Leslie

Same tests.    No difference

 

I used my Focusrite 18i20 Gen 3 audio interface

 

Computer is brand new MacBook M1 Pro 14" with 16GB ram and 1TB internal ssd

I used my Shure SE-425 earbuds plugged directly into 18i20 Headphone out in Stereo

 

I would be happy to test mine using the setup you used i.e, drawbars, chorus, Leslie setup etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Al Coda]

9 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

... my initial attempt at using the Leslie EQ to tame that 'E-note' resonance in the 122 did help. I set the Q to be fully narrow and then found the mid frequency (somewhere around 9 o'clock). I put the gain also at about 9 o'clock from what I remember. I didn't want to cut it too much and create the opposite problem. It didn't work perfectly, but it seemed to work well enough.

 

thx for the settings !

 

9 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

I just wanted to give the B-3X a test run in case I want to consider it down the road. I do like some aspects of the organ engine a tiny bit more than the VB3-II (like the chorus presence boost -- something strangely missing from many clonewheels) but they are both very good.

 

Yes, both are good, but also sound significantly different to my ears.

IMO, it might not be bad to have both.

 

A.C.

 

 

[Al Coda]

7 hours ago, EscapeRocks said:

Finally had a chance to test

 

I played and held some single notes while changing Decay from Fast to Slow.    I could not perceive a difference

I then changed Perc volume to Normal and did the same test.    Again, no difference switching Decay fast/slow

 

That´s interesting !

I didn´t test holding notes,- so I now guess it needs re-trigger to become obvious.

Play a single note w/ perc. decay fast, then play a single note w/ perc. decay slow.

In Windows10 Pro x64 and B-3X "standalone" as also as a plugin in Reaper (latest version), perc. volume decreases once the decay switch is set to "slow".

 

7 hours ago, EscapeRocks said:

 

I would be happy to test mine using the setup you used i.e, drawbars, chorus, Leslie setup etc.

 

Sharing settings is possible, but not now.

I´m currently typing on the office machine.

 

But,- it´s already obvious w/ the Windows version and w/ the factory default patch (called B-3X something ...) being recalled once B-3X is up in standalone mode.

 

Thx a lot for testing, very interesting it doesn´t appear w/ the Mac version.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[drawback]

12 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

I only have a couple of days left of the demo and I'm not sure how much more time I will have to play with it.

Just for curiosity then, have you taken a look at Acoustic Samples B-5 V3? No free demo, but lots of info on the website, and a nice price. I haven’t tried it but was interested until I bought B-3X for iOS. 

[Stokely]

I set up my "big" (two keyboard + ipad on the MODX7) rig and once again I was struck by just how good this thing sounds.

I just wish the Leslie gain didn't increase volume so much.  I often want different amounts of overdrive but on one patch it is usually too extreme of a volume jump.  I've started using different patches, whereas before I just had one   

I also should experiment more with the tubescreamer stomp and/or mixing in the guitar amp as another way to get more overdrive at certain times.  Not sure if either of those are controllable via midi cc, I'll have to take a look.

One "quirk" I've found is that the post-cab reverb is *really* touchy.  Going from 0% to 5% means going from completely dry to "too wet for live".   

[kaptainkeys]

49 minutes ago, Stokely said:

One "quirk" I've found is that the post-cab reverb is *really* touchy.  Going from 0% to 5% means going from completely dry to "too wet for live".

Maybe use an insert effect in the MODX instead?  Or if you're like me who runs a reverb master effect over the entire performance/combi then you can just use that.

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, drawback said:

Just for curiosity then, have you taken a look at Acoustic Samples B-5 V3? No free demo, but lots of info on the website, and a nice price. I haven’t tried it but was interested until I bought B-3X for iOS. 

 

I really have wanted to try B-5 V3 but it really bugs me that it doesn't have a free demo. Stick in an obnoxious sound every 10 seconds or whatever, I don't care, just give me a demo I can play. I like that they made the B-5 organ model really editable. The graphic-eq-like display of the tonewheel settings is cool. Anyway, like I said, I'm waiting to try the SK Pro, so no reason to be spending more money on software organs until I have a chance to try that. If I don't get it, I might wind up buying the B-5 for the editability and just to try it. I have VB3-II and T-Racks Leslie for now.

[funkyhammond]

13 hours ago, EscapeRocks said:

Finally had a chance to test

 

B3X. Ver. 1.3.4

Setup:

 

 

Wow, thanks for all the settings but I doubt they are necessary for this (although I could be wrong). I would just use the default organ preset. I noticed this by hitting a note with the decay on Fast, then hitting the note again with the decay on Slow. The percussion is quieter when on Slow. Think of it like you were trying to test to see how fast the percussion is on fast and how slow it is on slow. You can even push all the drawbars in just to isolate it better. The percussion shouldn't by quieter when on Slow. 

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

I just wish the Leslie gain didn't increase volume so much.  I often want different amounts of overdrive but on one patch it is usually too extreme of a volume jump.  I've started using different patches, whereas before I just had one   

 

I guess they're just trying to be accurate. I do notice that the volume doesn't increase much once it starts getting into the really crunchy territory, which corresponds to how the 40W tube amp would behave. I agree, though, it would have been nice to have had a volume compensation option. Have you tried the compressor/limiter in the post fx? 

 

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

I also should experiment more with the tubescreamer stomp and/or mixing in the guitar amp as another way to get more overdrive at certain times.  Not sure if either of those are controllable via midi cc, I'll have to take a look.

 

 

Midi CC's are available for just the standard organ and Leslie controls. There's a bunch of extra stuff that can be controlled via the automation controls exposed to the DAW/performance software but I haven't looked.

[Stokely]

2 hours ago, GotKeys said:

Maybe use an insert effect in the MODX instead?  Or if you're like me who runs a reverb master effect over the entire performance/combi then you can just use that.

I really should look into that.  I'm currently exploring doing that very thing (one master verb) on my Kurzweil Multis, I'd like to override the program ones so that they don't end up being a mush of different fx.  I didn't realize I could do the same thing on the MODX.  I'm also inferring that this master performance fx can apply to incoming usb signal?  That is pretty cool if so.

I use so little reverb on *most* patches live that it's not a huge deal. 

Responding to the post just above, I haven't dived into the dynamics but I did notice that one of my three custom patches---which I tweaked from stock and then renamed with "aaa" so they'd be at the top!---had the limiter on.  It was a Jon Lord style, and when I turned off the limiter whoo boy did the volume fly up.  It was really squashing things.  That said, I probably could work out a more subtle use with input and output gains so that it engages just near the top of the leslie gain.  It probably wouldn't be an annoying as it would be on another instrument like piano    Ironically, I've started using the master compressor on my Forte just to assist with a bit of patch leveling...the band has complained a bit that my patches jump despite my best efforts, so I'm experimenting with some subtle compression to tame the peaks.   I was actually wondering if there was anything similar on the MODX, but I suspect it would have to be on every patch, unlike the Forte which applies it independently--and after--the patch in the audio flow.  Patch leveling is one thing I dislike about having multiple sound sources, then you start worrying about stereo vs mono....

[funkyhammond]

@drawback, I forgot to ask, can you try the percussion issue on iOS to see if you can reproduce it? Does the percussion sound quieter when on Slow decay vs Fast decay?

[drawback]

3 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

@drawback, I forgot to ask, can you try the percussion issue on iOS to see if you can reproduce it? Does the percussion sound quieter when on Slow decay vs Fast decay?

 

Just did it, same result.

[funkyhammond]

Forgot to mention this days ago. I contacted IK Multimedia through their support page about the percussion issue and they looked into it and confirmed. They said it should be fixed in a future update. And I don't even own the damn thing.  Maybe I will in the near future and it's nice to know they are very responsive.

[Al Coda]

I discovered another bug just only appearing occasionally:

 

I´m doin´ my edits in "standalone mode",- so at least running in that mode and on a Win10 machine,-

 

when changing parameter values by selecting a parameter by mouseclick, then typing the desired value and you try to save by pressing "enter", B-3X crashes sometimes.

Luckily no BSOD, just only the "organ" disappears and has to be re-launched.

 

Changing parameter values by (vertical or circular) mouse-hoovering doesn´t result in occasional crashes,- but it´s harder to enter a precise value that way.

 

It can happen with every parameter existing in organ-, stomp boxes-, amps/cabs- or global FX  sections.

 

The organ engine never crashed while playing up to now.

Assigned MIDI CCs work and realtime parameter changes didn´t cause a crash.

So it can be narrowed down to "typing a value and press enter (save)"

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[funkyhammond]

4 hours ago, Al Coda said:

when changing parameter values by selecting a parameter by mouseclick, then typing the desired value and you try to save by pressing "enter", B-3X crashes sometimes.

 

 

I no longer have an active demo to try to reproduce this but I'd say report it to their support. As someone who has experience with coding, it sounds like there is some kind of mismanagement of the memory used for the string being entered; that type of thing can cause random crashes.

[funkyhammond]

BTW, has anyone that is running B-3X in Windows 10 tried it in both an older/slower machine and a newer/faster one and gotten any kind of sense of what is a general minimum CPU requirement to ensure it runs smoothly with no glitches (assuming maybe a few other light VSTs also running)? Or has anyone seen this topic covered in a different thread or different forum? I'm trying to determine what would be good enough in a used laptop or a new budget/mid-range laptop.

[Baldwin Funster]

51 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

BTW, has anyone that is running B-3X in Windows 10 tried it in both an older/slower machine and a newer/faster one and gotten any kind of sense of what is a general minimum CPU requirement to ensure it runs smoothly with no glitches (assuming maybe a few other light VSTs also running)? Or has anyone seen this topic covered in a different thread or different forum? I'm trying to determine what would be good enough in a used laptop or a new budget/mid-range laptop.

Not exactly what you're asking but I can say that b3x runs on my iPad4 which is now about 4 years old and it runs good with almost no detectable latency or glitches...IF...I run no stompboxes or effects. Just running the organ and leslie is OK, just not if the other internal fx are used.

[JimboKeys]

7 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

BTW, has anyone that is running B-3X in Windows 10 tried it in both an older/slower machine and a newer/faster one and gotten any kind of sense of what is a general minimum CPU requirement to ensure it runs smoothly with no glitches (assuming maybe a few other light VSTs also running)? Or has anyone seen this topic covered in a different thread or different forum? I'm trying to determine what would be good enough in a used laptop or a new budget/mid-range laptop.

I'm running B3-X on a 5-year-old 1.5GHz i5 Lenovo Yoga 11S.  Had to increase the buffer size to 512 to get it to run without glitches, but i'll put up with the latency to get the B3-X goodness.

 

- Jimbo