News from Roland: Fantom 06/07/08

[Charleston]

If you sell the Fantom 0, does the buyer get the expansions (which in turn would increase the value)? 

How does it all work in regards to that?

[Sean M. H.]

Apparently not, according to this thread:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/181859-dont-ever-buy-any-expansion-in-roland-cloud/#comment-2891498

[AnotherScott]

 

4 hours ago, TomKittel said:

Here is another Fantom 0 deal killer: the synth expansions are NOT free of charge as they are with the original Fantom. JP8, JX8P, Juno106 and SH101 would set you back 600 bucks plus taxes.

 

FWIW, they were originally announced for the Fantom as being free only as part of a limited time promotion. But who knows, maybe they'll keep them that way.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

On 4/3/2022 at 5:28 PM, MathOfInsects said:

The "yes-yes-are you sure" pattern on the FA for example, which goes "right button-right button-LEFT button" for no perceivable reason

 

Typically, the reason to have the last step switch the "good" button (as you put it) is to make it harder to do something potentially destructive. Though I don't know if that applies in this case.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 5:28 PM, MathOfInsects said:

And stop dropping me in the middle of a studio set just because that's where my cursor was the last time I saved that set. Time after time I call up a studio set and end up playing some idiosyncratic patch that I'd stuck at the end of it some time in the past, just because that was the most recent thing I did before saving.

 

The "most recent thing you did before saving" is a very reasonable state to save. You may have a Studio Set with a bunch of sounds for a song, but the first sound you need happens to be sound #5. Better to have it come up with #5 selected than to have to hit an extra button every time you play the song, no? I suppose you could move things around so that the first sound you need ends up in spot #1. But what's simpler... Saving the set for the sound you need selected? Or moving things around so that the sound you need first is in spot 1?

 

On 4/3/2022 at 5:28 PM, MathOfInsects said:

And light up the nav arrows. We play in the dark, it's kind of our thing.

 

I've posted it enough that you've probably seen my related pet peeve... boards that are full of black controls on black backgrounds. And yup, Roland is an offender.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 5:28 PM, MathOfInsects said:

And for crying out loud, fix the action. Except for the RD-2000, which is from God, who is their action for? 

 

This is indeed a Roland frustration. For years, Roland offered some of my favorite actions. In non-hammer actions, the RS9, VR700, Jupiter 50, Jupiter 80 are all different, but all among the best actions of their type, and two of the four are even in lightweight boards, yet these days they keep sticking lesser actions everywhere. Right now, the only Roland action I really think is good is the Fantom 6/7 (though the FA-07 and AX-Edge aren't bad). I'm not certain I've played the RD-2000, but I haven't played a Roland hammer action I've really liked since the FP7 and FP7F, they're all too heavy and/or sluggish feeling for my taste. Action used to be a Roland strength, now it's a Roland weakness. (Maybe something for the "Things that Used to be Great, But Have Now Become Really Bad" thread.)

 

 

On 4/3/2022 at 5:28 PM, MathOfInsects said:

And why would you tier the boards so that the action improves with the number of keys? That doesn't make sense to me. I know that's not just Roland, but because their lower-tier action is so crappy, it feels more severe with them. 

 

Hmm... Who besides Roland? At least in non-hammer boards?

 

In the case of Roland, they did it with the FA, the Juno DS, and the VR730 (vs the 09). What I think may be notable in all of these cases is that they 76 came out years after the 61. So I'm thinking that maybe it wasn't so much a plan for 76 boards to have better actions, as much as it was something else. Like maybe their low-end 61 action design was not something they could cost-effectively manufacture in a 7x. Or maybe, having fielded so many complaints about that 61, they decided to address that problem in  their followup products.

 

In hammer boards, it has indeed become common to link action quality with number of keys, but the rationale appears to be not one of giving the one with more keys the better action, but rather, giving the one with fewer keys and action that has a lighter travel weight, on the theory that people looking for fewer keys are often looking for something more easily carried around. But yes, Yamaha does that on their CP73/CP88 and YC73/YC88, Nord does it with the HA88s vs. their HP 7x models, and Dexibell has done it as well.

[miden]

In regard to keybeds, why didn't they just stick to the A70 for synth keybeds? imo, arguably the finest semi-weighted action Roland ever made AND it had aftertouch (which keybed makers seemed to think was a default thing to add back then), now it's a cost cutting tool. Again, not sure why.

 

Just produce it in 61 and 49 key versions....Korg have used exactly the same Fatar semi in the  PA series ever since the PA1X - (modified slightly for the PA2, but the same in the PA3 and the PA4)  "when you're on a good thing, stick to it" ...yes they are MUCH more expensive 'boards, but I think readers would get the principle.

[EscapeRocks]

My -08 just got here

 

About to unbox

Reports later.

 

[miden]

10 minutes ago, EscapeRocks said:

My -08 just got here

 

About to unbox

Reports later.

 

 

Thanks David - I for one will be VERY interested in your take on it, coming as you do from the FA history.

[miden]

One thing that I cannot figure (and it was the same with Yamaha and Korg) is how to control sounds on the Fantom (08 in this case, but apparently it is reasonably identical to the Fantom) from an external controller  AND have controls attached to the Fantom control the sound being played by the external keyboard.

 

So, I can get the keys to play sounds, that's easy...but then having an expression pedal or sustain pedal attached to the Roland also work is not... and in fact, unless the particular zone is the "focus" zone they do not.

 

I can play notes on any channel I like but the attached pedals (or mod wheel/bend wheel and paddle) do not work...as I wrote it was the same on the Korg and Yamaha...the controls work when the "focus" is on the zone (in this case 2 as it is the only one the VTW engine works on) but if I then change the focus to the piano zone (#1) while I can still play part two, the controllers then stop working.

 

You'd think there would be some sort of "through" control in system to all this...there is soft thru and midi-usb thru and neither of those work.

 

In fact one Yamaha expert told me to setup two full sets of pedal controls to achieve it!! One set for the yammie and another for the controller.

 

So either this is not possible (and I find it incredibly difficult to believe that) or for all three makers I am missing something....these 'boards are all excellent at being controllers, but far less so when being controlled.

 

If I stick a PC in between and use apps similar to Mainstage, I can route whatever I want. I sorta assumed that with a complex OS as the Fantoms have and the excellent MIDI implementation, they'd be able to do it natively.

[MathOfInsects]

20 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

The "most recent thing you did before saving" is a very reasonable state to save. You may have a Studio Set with a bunch of sounds for a song, but the first sound you need happens to be sound #5. Better to have it come up with #5 selected than to have to hit an extra button every time you play the song, no? I suppose you could move things around so that the first sound you need ends up in spot #1. But what's simpler... Saving the set for the sound you need selected? Or moving things around so that the sound you need first is in spot 1?

No, and I explained why. I've almost never run across a situation where the last change I made or tweak to that change, was also coincidentally the first thing I need to hear when calling up that Studio Set. I need to be able to scroll through the sounds in the order I know they are in. And it's not just the patch itself that is left active--it's whatever parameter you just changed. So even if I'm fine landing in some arbitrary spot that doesn't even reveal what's at the top of the list, that's no guarantee that when I spin the wheel to try to quickly change the patch to one I really need, it will be the patch that changes. It could be any aspect of that patch--usually the keyboard range that the patch will play in, which you can't see for awhile, making it especially obnoxious. In fact, it's basically a Murphy's Law guarantee that it WILL NOT be what you need. Who, after setting up a split and saving it, then cursors over to the name of the patch, makes no other changes, and then saves the Studio Set again just to get around Roland's stupid workflow flaw?

Changing Studio Sets is "Studio set level," and they should leave me at that level until I personally depart it (meaning, the first thing I touch should "start" at studio level, rather than skip over a whole bunch of patches from there). This has sabotaged countless solos and songs, to have my (for example) "Organs/Synths/EPs" Studio set leave me on some stupid Bad Guy sound, just because that's the last one I added in the moment, instead of putting me at the top of the list so I can get the sounds I meant to get when I chose the Set.

Not to mention, that's not always the sound you see at the top of the list. It's wherever it was when you last saved. So it looks like you're at the top of the list, where you want to be, and then you start playing and find out you're not.

Not to mention, once you're in the set, you're no longer able to navigate the Studio Sets themselves in the same way, until you figure out what's highlighted and go up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up over over to get back to Studio Set selection screen. 

 

"What about pad mode?" you say. It doesn't address the changing of Studio Sets, or switching from Prst to User, and also BTW doesn't light up to show which sounds are selected which would seem like a UI no-brainer. So, sure, I can try jumping up to Pad 1 (which BTW is "up" on the patch list, but "down" on the pad array) to shorten some of those up up up up over steps, but then I then have to return, in the dark, to the unlit cursor buttons, hope I find "up" now, get up to the name of the Studio Set, and use the wheel, not the pad, to navigate to the one I really want next, and the whole thing starts again. (BTW, if you actually can use Pad Mode to navigate Studio Sets I'd love to know about it.) It's way more reliable to just do the parade of "ups."

Making it worse is the related element, which is that maybe I could live with this quirk if there was some way to KNOW where you've landed in a Studio Set. But the distinction between a selected patch or parameter and a non-selected one is so so subtle as to seem almost trollish. I think there's a tiny black frame that ever so slightly expands the existing black frame, by maybe a pixel. If you're in the weeds editing patches, it's easy enough to follow. If you're on a gig and someone just tossed you a solo? Sabotage. 

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

No, and I explained why.

 

I'll have to bow out of the rest of this exchange, because I don't have enough understanding of the FA and its Studio Sets to be able to follow this or offer any constructive input.

[Lazerlike42]

After al lot of digging it does seem like (unless someone wants to correct me) the SN pianos on the Fantom-0 (and the Fantom) are extremely stripped down. They're apparently lacking any kind of resonance along with things like tone/nuance and almost all of the other sorts of things that to a large degree made the SN pianos what they are - and this is with a release that includes around 30 different SN pianos. I really don't understand this decision. Do they plan to add these things in an update? Is it part of a strategy aimed at pushing people to get the flagship Fantom with the V-Piano?

I realize that for a board like the Fantom having perfect sounds for one particular instrument isn't really the point, but it still just strikes me as such an odd thing to do given that these sorts of things are a big part of what makes SuperNatural instruments what they are, especially when they've included these kinds of features on the Fantom's predecessor the FA and when they have a boatload of other SuperNatural sounds on this one that has all of these sorts of things. For me personally, it makes what would have been an easy purchase a no-go: it's just such a small thing (I'd think, anyways) given the tradeoff.

 

[Fleer]

And I believe the RD-88 has resonance too. 

[Lazerlike42]

Just now, Fleer said:

And I believe the RD-88 has resonance too. 

Yes, it does. If I'm not mistaken it's slightly different from past implementations: rather than being sort of "built in" to each tone/patch/whatever they're called, I think it's added on as an MFX, but I could be wrong about that. Either way, it has it.

[ChazKeys]

1 hour ago, Lazerlike42 said:

Yes, it does. If I'm not mistaken it's slightly different from past implementations: rather than being sort of "built in" to each tone/patch/whatever they're called, I think it's added on as an MFX, but I could be wrong about that. Either way, it has it.

The RD88 does have Sympathetic Resonance. It is a separate effect available to all parts in a scene. It’s very comprehensive.  Have a look at the panel i programmed for it .  

 

PS - does anyone know how to format these screenshots so they take up less space?

[EscapeRocks]

Finally got to unpacking the new Fantom -08 last night.

 

First thought: Love the design.   It's only @2.5lbs heavier than my RD-88  (and 4lbs lighter than my long gone FA-08)

I found it easier to lift and carry than the RD88, most like to being 1 inch lower, and where the "grooves" underneath are.

The controls are laid out very well. 

The hard "plastic" shell feels just as sturdy as my FA-08, and maybe just a touch, if at all, sturdier than my RD88.   This does not worry me.  Over the last 15 years, I've gigged with these "plastic" boards:

MOX6, MOFX88, MODX6, MODX8, Casio PX5S, and FA-08 to name a few.   Not one problem ever arose from loading, unloading, throw and go gigs, etc.   Heck, I even dropped my FA-08 once, and except for a slight scuffed up corner, nothing broke.

 

The Fantom-08 feels the same to me as my old FA-08

Keys:   I'm not able to get into a long-winded breakdown on how the keys feel to me. There are very, very few keyboard that I don't get along with.

 

To me the keys feel almost exactly the same as my RD-88, and I really like them.   They are VERY close in feel, to me, as my old FA-08.  They don't seem to bottom out as hard as the the keys did on the FA-08, which is a good thing.     Trills, chromatic runs, and the "prelude/angry young man" test all passed.

I first tested the keys with the board off, just to feel with no other senses, how it felt.    All good.

 

I haven't had a lot of time to explore the sounds.  I just went thru some of the basics.  Mostly the Strings and Brass.   As expected, the brass and strings were phenomenal.  The articulations and nuances were spot on.  The factory programs has the velocity switching dead on for my hands, especially for brass hits.

I already like the pianos so haven't spent much time, yet.

 

One thing I really like:  I understand Roland-Speak. Coming from an old Fantom X6, to my old FA-08, and now this.  Basic navigation around the scenes, and 16 parts was second nature without cracking a manual.

 

All in all I am VERY happy with this. Once I spend more than 25 minutes playing it, I will  answer some of the detailed questions some have asked here.

 

 

 

 

 

[jimkost2002]

Great, David, can’t wait to hear more!

[AnotherScott]

48 minutes ago, EscapeRocks said:

It's only @2.5lbs heavier than my RD-88...

I found it easier to lift and carry than the RD88, most like to being 1 inch lower, and where the "grooves" underneath are.

 

Yeah, nothing tells you how something will feel to carry until you actually get your hands around them. On paper, the Fantom-08 is not just almost 3 lbs heavier, but also over 4" wider and almost 4" deeper (though it is less high, by almost an inch). So one might expect the RD-88 to feel easier to carry around. But the exact weight distribution and how comfortably it can be grabbed at various points can make a big difference. If you can't get your hand around something easily and firmly, because it's too high or because its top surface is angled or because it bulges out or because its edges are rounded, it can be tougher to deal with than something pounds heavier but better designed for carriage.

[ProfD]

On 4/4/2022 at 7:52 PM, miden said:

why didn't they just stick to the A70 for synth keybeds?

Agreed.  Makes no sense that Roland abandoned the A70 and A33 key action.

 

Between Zen Core and every iteration of their KBs, Roland has mastered the art of reselling sounds.😁😎

[EscapeRocks]

32 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Yeah, nothing tells you how something will feel to carry until you actually get your hands around them. On paper, the Fantom-08 is not just almost 3 lbs heavier, but also over 4" wider and almost 4" deeper (though it is less high, by almost an inch). So one might expect the RD-88 to feel easier to carry around. But the exact weight distribution and how comfortably it can be grabbed at various points can make a big difference. If you can't get your hand around something easily and firmly, because it's too high or because its top surface is angled or because it bulges out or because its edges are rounded, it can be tougher to deal with than something pounds heavier but better designed for carriage.

The board that can be thew most awkward to carry is my Nautilus 61, even though it's 4lbs lighter and much narrow than the Fantom 08

 

It is due to the design.   I love the "spaceship" look of it, and it looks killer on my Gibraltar stand from the audience perspective.  However, there's no really good grip points on it.

The hardest is my A88-MKII.   Just a couple inches wider than the Fantom 08, and only 4lbs heavier.   However the way the weight is distributed makes for interesting removal from it's hardshell, or soft sided gig bag.

[llatham]

On 4/3/2022 at 2:18 AM, Sean M. H. said:

So, I finally had my FA-07 and Fantom 07 in the same room at the same time...as my fingers suspected, the Fantom keys are in fact smaller than the FA. 

Whoa. That's...horrible.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 2:18 AM, Sean M. H. said:

 

 

The white keys on the Fantom measure roughly 5 & 5/16" in length...while the FA keys measure about 5 & 1/2"...so about a 1/4" difference.   The black keys are similarly scaled smaller on the Fantom. 

 

With that said, I am not noticing the black key issue that llatham and others are asking about. 

That's good news, but from what I'm reading on other threads the FA-07 either didn't have the problem or was better at this.

 

When the 07s came out I considered moving up to that, but I very much like the footprint of a 61 for what I do. I still need a direct comparison between the FA-06 and the Fantom-06, but it's looking more and more like I might be better off just to try to find a used FA-07...

 

 

[llatham]

On 4/3/2022 at 5:28 PM, MathOfInsects said:

I don't want to pile on to a board I've never laid a finger on, or a company whose products I have used throughout my career, but I have to say: I so often wonder about how Roland market tests its products. There are so many little elements that seem antithetical to how "real people" interact with their instruments.

I'll make this simple: Roland is a business in 2022, in a climate where, well, you know what goes on. It's all about profit margins. And not good profit margins, but insane profit margins in the form of pay for CEOs and so on. Everything - putting files on a server for Zencore and whatnot costs them practically nothing, whereas in the old days they would have to design, build, ship, etc. a physical card. They can now charge you only $50.00 instead of $250.00 but it also only costs them pennies to put the files on the server once they're made (and they're basically simply copies of existing tech that's long had its R&D covered).

 

Why won't they put a better keybed on it? Because it costs them less and more of what they charge for the board becomes profit.

 

Why are the keys shorter - I'm sure it costs them less. Even a reduction in weight? Reduces shipping costs. They can ship a container over from Japan to the US with more keyboards for the same rate.

 

There's just all kinds of stuff...

 

And no offense, but the day I found out about them, I came here and a number of people already had them.

 

As long as there are people who are going to buy the keyboard the first day it comes out - or a new M1 Mac, or whatever, these companies are going to continue to do what they're doing.

 

In fact, the "market" they are going for is exactly "the person who will buy it the day it comes out".

 

Because they don't have to pay Sweetwater or GC back when you return it. They've already got GC's money for stocking the things in the first place for example.

 

They want to get 20,000 units out and purchased, have the people who are day 1 adopters buy them, and have the stores order another 20,000 units, and then the store get all the returns, and try to get what they can from them.

 

Really, we need to stand up to the retailers, and the retailers need to stand up to Roland. But with no one really willing to do that, it's not going to change.

 

Again no offense to you day 1 adopters - I don't mean you're causing this, but it's just that the companies know that this is a way they can generate revenue - it's the same thing with Video Games that aren't ready for market - they sell them, then make a patch later.

 

It's really all about getting the money up front and then dealing with any fall out later.

[EscapeRocks]

14 minutes ago, llatham said:

And no offense, but the day I found out about them, I came here and a number of people already had them.

 

As long as there are people who are going to buy the keyboard the first day it comes out - or a new M1 Mac, or whatever, these companies are going to continue to do what they're doing.

 

 

 

Really, we need to stand up to the retailers, and the retailers need to stand up to Roland. But with no one really willing to do that, it's not going to change.

 

Again no offense to you day 1 adopters - I don't mean you're causing this, but it's just that the companies know that this is a way they can generate revenue - it's the same thing with Video Games that aren't ready for market - they sell them, then make a patch later.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps a number of us buy them based on our personal history/experience with a company's products.   In this case Roland.  They've never failed me as an early adopter.

Same with Apple, and the new Macbook M1 Pro's, of which I got a new one last week, setup a concert, and used it this past Saturday, glitch free, as expected.

 

I bought a brand new Nautilus 61 immediately when it appeared. Again, as expected based on my history with KORG, I have had zero issues.

 

What are we supposed to stand up to?  Things that are entirely subjective?

I was able to play a new -07 and a new -06 at the store Monday afternoon as they just got them, and have them on display.  Keys seemed fine to me.

 

My brand new -08 plays wonderfully.  I like the keys. That's subjective, of course.

 

So yeah, your "I mean no offense" is not really true.  It is a bit condescending to call out so called early adopters, as if were' just fanboys drooling for the next piece of gear from whatever company we like.

 

Twit filter it is

[miden]

All I'd like to know is how you can have the foot controllers attached to the Fantom, actually affect any other Zone apart from the one in "focus" IE a zone being played by another keyboard.

[Sean M. H.]

Fwiw, I'd say the last 2 or 3 times I've played my Fantom-07 were the first times where I wasn't thinking about the action and I felt reasonably comfortable.  Surely most of that is just getting used to it by playing it more and more...but there's probably a mental component to it too.  Between 1) seeing that others are finding the action usable/decent/acceptable (and one user on another forum who actually seems to love it)...and 2) realizing that the keys--while smaller than some keys (like my FA-07)--are about the same size as a Hammond organ....I've sort of recalibrated my expectations and made peace with the action lol

 

With that said, I'll be really digging into this board over the coming weekend.  I still have yet to create a "scene"...adjust the velocity curve...assign any controllers...or even so much as hook up a sustain pedal to my Fantom!  I think subconsciously, I was waiting to come to terms with the action before really committing and getting to know the board intimately lol

 

Oh yeah...and I also just sold my FA-07...so...that's another reason I'll be all-in with the Fantom moving forward 😁

 

I'll try to answer the few questions in this thread that haven't yet been answered as I get deeper into things.

[Aynsley Green]

Tempted to pull the trigger and sell my MODX6. 

 

Can anyone confirm the Model Expansion situation? Can one fully load a Fantom-06 with the full complement of Jupiter, Juno, JX8p etc? Or are there space limitations?

[Lazerlike42]

27 minutes ago, Aynsley Green said:

Tempted to pull the trigger and sell my MODX6. 

 

Can anyone confirm the Model Expansion situation? Can one fully load a Fantom-06 with the full complement of Jupiter, Juno, JX8p etc? Or are there space limitations?

I can't give an exact explanation, but apparently the way that expansions are stored involves compression, meaning that you can get a lot more stuff on the board then the numbers would seem to suggest. I could be mistaken, but I THINK some people have previously commented on some examples of how much stuff can be fit earlier in this thread. If not, it may have been this one: https://gearspace.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1375752-roland-fantom-0-series-06-07-08-a-11.html

[AnotherScott]

 

On 4/3/2022 at 12:58 PM, AnotherScott said:

Assuming Fantom-06 has the same action as Fantom-07, it would not seem to be very different from what was in the FA-06, though the keys are a bit longer.

 

So when we compare Fantom-0 to FA actions, I think we end up with one that's better, one that's worse, and one that's about the same.

 

According to someone on Gearspace, the 06 and 07 actions are not identical after all (the 07 keys being a little better, a little longer). Is there anyone else here who has played both and can confirm? Possibly more support for MoI's irritation...

 

On 4/3/2022 at 5:28 PM, MathOfInsects said:

And why would you tier the boards so that the action improves with the number of keys? 

 

 

[EscapeRocks]

Next finding on my -08

 

I though the native Mainstage  integration on my RD88 was/is cool.  The new Fantom ups that, in large part due to the touch screen.   It give you a visual representation of which knobs, etc are naively mapped.

I haven't played with it yet, but the Logic control also looks to be robust.

 

Here's a picture of the basic screen in Mainstage mode

 

The knobs on the Fantom-08 are also push buttons.    Push those and they change my patches in Mainstage. No need for any other controller

[jeffincltnc]

I played the Fantom-08 today at my local Guitar Center for the first time.

 

As a Fantom 8 owner, I hated the stripped down version of the Fantom-08.  Not just for what it's missing, but everything about the Fantom 8 is quality at every touch point to the instrument.  Fantom 8 = great action, high quality knobs, sliders, inputs/outputs and so much more to work with.  Everything about it is flagship.

 

The Fantom-08 just felt like a cheap imitation of the flagship and reminded me all of the reasons I didn't care as much for the FA series and the compromises of the trickle down boads.  You get what you pay for.

[Sean M. H.]

29 minutes ago, jeffinpghpa said:

I played the Fantom-08 today at my local Guitar Center for the first time.

 

As a Fantom 8 owner, I hated the stripped down version of the Fantom-08.  Not just for what it's missing, but everything about the Fantom 8 is quality at every touch point to the instrument.  Fantom 8 = great action, high quality knobs, sliders, inputs/outputs and so much more to work with.  Everything about it is flagship.

 

The Fantom-08 just felt like a cheap imitation of the flagship and reminded me all of the reasons I didn't care as much for the FA series and the compromises of the trickle down boads.  You get what you pay for.

 

Asking this honestly/sincerely (not to be a smart ass), are you merely stating the obvious here?  Or are you suggesting there are other boards out there that feel/play/sound just like their flagship counterparts but still cost half the price? 

 

If the former--I certainly get it.  If you can afford the price (and weight) of a flagship, it would make sense that mid-tier boards don't do it for you...

 

...but if the latter, please let us know...because I am unaware of such a board and would hate to miss out!  I think the concessions Roland made here are about as expected given the price difference...and no better/worse than the other big manufacturers.