llatham

Yeah, here's my take: The A-800 has 12 Velocity Curves - there are 4 types, with a light, medium, and heavy for each. I didn't do exhaustive testing or anything but the A-800 can be set so that no matter how hard you hit the dang thing, it won't put out a velocity of 127 - or, at least, I was honestly scared to hit it as hard as it might need to do that. Now, I'll say that's "better" than the 06. But as I'm sure you're aware, it's not great hammer action either. But I do find playing piano-type sounds with the A-800 to be more of a "I don't have to constantly remind myself not to hit a black key too hard" 😄 The A-800 also has aftertouch. If the A-800 was in the 06, it would have been my perfect keyboard. Side note - the knobs on the sliders on the A-800 are easy to take off, or pull off, or catch on something and drag off, and fall on the floor or parking lot and be gone forever 🙂 You can still move the sliders without the knob but it's just a little metal shaft. Not a big deal to me but it is kind of a QC thing that leaves me wanting. The Knobs and Pads, as well as the transport style buttons are all good. The pads and buttons are similar to the pads on the FA and I like them. I don't use the pads for drums though - on the FA's 16, and the 800's 8, I used them for switching sounds. The thing that really drove me to the 800 was I needed a controller that would let me program SysEx messages as well as THREE messages - Bank Select MSB, and LSB, and PC - all on one button push - I was controlling one of the old sound canvases that had no front controls. I think it was ReeseKeys here who really helped me out a lot with the SysEx programming. Another cool feature about the 800 is there are 4 buttons that are labelled Layer and Split, but you can actually set them up in the software and have them do either - it's only 2 channels per, but you could set up 8 channels in layers and splits this way. There's a soft thru for MIDI as well. So there was a lot to like about it and it worked great for my purposes. The key size seems to be exactly the same as the FA, but the slopes or rounded edges might be slightly different. But the "feel" is the same basically as the FA, but with better/more useful velocity curves and it doesn't have the black/white key issue. Once I realized the FA was doing that, and the 800 wasn't in comparison, I was heartbroken about the FA. I do love the FA for so many other reasons, but I really just need either a better controller to add to the FA for Piano (but who am I fooling - I can neither afford nor do I have space for a great 88 with piano action) and maybe Electric Piano and Clav etc., but for Synths and stuff I love the FA. I was hoping maybe the new Fantom-06 might use a keybed closer to the 800 - if so, I might go for it. Or a 76. Or find an FA-07... always a struggle when you're poor...

I'll make this simple: Roland is a business in 2022, in a climate where, well, you know what goes on. It's all about profit margins. And not good profit margins, but insane profit margins in the form of pay for CEOs and so on. Everything - putting files on a server for Zencore and whatnot costs them practically nothing, whereas in the old days they would have to design, build, ship, etc. a physical card. They can now charge you only $50.00 instead of $250.00 but it also only costs them pennies to put the files on the server once they're made (and they're basically simply copies of existing tech that's long had its R&D covered). Why won't they put a better keybed on it? Because it costs them less and more of what they charge for the board becomes profit. Why are the keys shorter - I'm sure it costs them less. Even a reduction in weight? Reduces shipping costs. They can ship a container over from Japan to the US with more keyboards for the same rate. There's just all kinds of stuff... And no offense, but the day I found out about them, I came here and a number of people already had them. As long as there are people who are going to buy the keyboard the first day it comes out - or a new M1 Mac, or whatever, these companies are going to continue to do what they're doing. In fact, the "market" they are going for is exactly "the person who will buy it the day it comes out". Because they don't have to pay Sweetwater or GC back when you return it. They've already got GC's money for stocking the things in the first place for example. They want to get 20,000 units out and purchased, have the people who are day 1 adopters buy them, and have the stores order another 20,000 units, and then the store get all the returns, and try to get what they can from them. Really, we need to stand up to the retailers, and the retailers need to stand up to Roland. But with no one really willing to do that, it's not going to change. Again no offense to you day 1 adopters - I don't mean you're causing this, but it's just that the companies know that this is a way they can generate revenue - it's the same thing with Video Games that aren't ready for market - they sell them, then make a patch later. It's really all about getting the money up front and then dealing with any fall out later.

Whoa. That's...horrible. That's good news, but from what I'm reading on other threads the FA-07 either didn't have the problem or was better at this. When the 07s came out I considered moving up to that, but I very much like the footprint of a 61 for what I do. I still need a direct comparison between the FA-06 and the Fantom-06, but it's looking more and more like I might be better off just to try to find a used FA-07...

It's a "little bit" customizable on the FA - but that's not the issue. The issue is that the black keys spit out higher velocities than the white keys given the same amount of pressure. You can't customize that out of there. The velocity settings they give - which are actually quite a few - don't solve this issue - which is not very "pro" at all - and seeing as the Fantom -0 series is coming in around the same price level, that concerns me.

Well, I bet it's probably the same keybed and same issue - or dang close.

Please record into a DAW and check the velocities that get recorded. A Piano sound would be ideal I suppose. Here's my problem: I have the FA-06. I don't play "heavy-handed", but the black keys will send out a velocity of 127 with very little effort. The white keys take a bit more effort, but they're still easy to trigger that without "pounding" on the keys or anything. To compare, I have a Roland A-800 Pro which basically has the same keybed and does NOT exhibit this problem. Now, before you go off, it's a known issue and it happens no matter how you set the keyboard sensitivity and the velocity curves. By contrast, on some of the "heavier" velocity curves in my A-800 (which has 12 IIRC) will not trigger 127 no matter how hard you hit them - at least, I'm not going to hit it any harder than I dare do, and it gets up to 120 ish, but not the tip top. The problem here is that on a sound like the Supernatural Piano sound - the first grand piano in the FA - it "clangs" when it reaches that highest velocity. Now, it's not just the 127, but the fact that it goes from 0-127 faster than a Tesla. Just playing a controlled scale with black and white keys is ilke: C D E-FLAT F G A-FLAT B-FLAT C It takes very little for those black keys to spit out a much higher velocity than the white keys. I actually had the A-800 connected to the FA and was playing both keybeds once and realized that one was different and it took me a second to realize - oh, different velocity curves. So then I started recording into a DAW with them and checking the velocities and sure enough - it's far easier to control velocities (play expressively) on the A-800 than it is on the FA - no matter what you do, it's just always triggering the top end of velocities - and on many sounds that makes a huge difference (on some it doesn't matter of course). I mean you'd really have to play feather light to not trigger them. So I'd love to know about the Fantom-06 - because this is the one biggest thing about the FA-06 I despise - basically I can only use it for fixed velocity sounds. So I'd love to see/hear some average piano playing (or even that which will test this issue) on the Fantom-06 to see if it has this same issue or not (BTW, the FA-07 keybed is different, so I'm not sure the Fantom 07 is the same as the Fantom 06, so not sure if you 07 owners will be able to confirm). Thanks in advance to anyone who can help out.

Thanks for this. So it's no different than the FA unfortunately. I know I could save them as tones, but it's like, I don't want to have to, do I don't, and complain about it instead 🙂 I find organ sounds all the time I like, but by default are set to the rotary fast, and pushing up the mod makes it slow - opposite of what I like So you have to go in and edit the tone and save the new tone with the Rotary reversed. It's ridiculously annoying. At this point, unless the Fantom-06 doesn't have the back keys sending velocity of 127 so much easier than the white keys (and better velocity curves overall) there's really nothing that I need that would be worth taking the hit on the FA-06 on trade in 'cause you know they're not going to be fair on that...

If you hook up a MIDI cable directly from the Fantom-06 to the Nord, the Note messages are going to go from the Fantom-06 to the Nord and play its sounds. You need to filter on one of of the devices so it only sends the PC messages, or only receives PC messages, and not also sends/receive the Note messages.

Oops wrong video. Sorry.

I love this on my FA. In some cases, I'll put multiple instruments I need in different octaves with them split up. Then when I press 1 pad, all 4 of those will get selected. Then I can press pad 2 and a separate set of 4 sounds could be selected. Really super useful. And one of those sounds can be duplicated on another part so on one pad it could be limited to the lowest octave, but on the next pad it could cover the entire range (and be in a different octave, etc.). How do the Fantoms implement this? I did come up with another HATE of my FA - that sounds have baked on MFX that you can't turn on and off outside of being on the screen. I don't want to have to save a non-trem version of an EP and a trem versio for ones where the Mod level or a button can't engage it. Or lead sounds with delay I want to turn off. Or turn off and on on the fly - you just simply can't do it without saving two versions of the sound. I had read before that the older Fantoms allowed this (yet people complained about it) so I'm curious about the Fantom-0 line to see how it deals with this. The main attraction for an Fantom-06 for me would be a keybed that doesn't have the black key issue I explained in my other post. If II can use the pads to switch between sounds quickly on the fly and it allows different groupings of multiple parts on a single pad, I'd be pretty well set. The rest is just gravy after that.

This is what I figured. Is there a "quick assign" like the FA - you would hold down Shift and move the control element (Wheel 1 for example) and it would bring up the screen of things you could assign to it and you select from there.

Sean, another question: One thing i would have liked to have had on the FA is the ability to assign the 6 matrix knobs to different channels or parts. For example, I want Piano on part 1, and Strings on part 2. And I want to assign knob 1 (or slider 1) to the volume/expression of the piano, and knob/slider 2 to the Strings - so that way I can simply turn up or down either part to "fade in the strings" for example, and then "fade out the piano" so I can have either individually, or both layered, and adjust what percentage of each I have. This is not something you can do on the FA. I wonder if the pad modes are the same as the FA too - I actually use my pads to select between 16 sounds within the same studio set.

Hi Sean, I've just seen the announcement so I'm playing catch-up with all this. I have an FA-06 and love it. Except for two things: 1. The black keys will send a velocity of 127 if you breathe on them. I actually have a Roland A-800 that I at first thought was the same keybed but I was playing them together once and noticed the difference in sound. I played some stuff into a DAW and looked at the velocity and lo and behold the A-800 would rarely get up to 126 and I had to beat the death out of it get to 127. But the FA will do it with barely a hard strike - like a normal accented note. This is a known issue and there's no fix for it - the velocity curves do little, and all you can do is set the velocity sensitivity to be exponential up to the top velocity, not "compress it down" so to speak. The white keys are less problematic. When the 07 finally came out I was considering that. 2. The other big issue for me is that the keys are all "shaved" in each dimension as compared to most of the other synths I've played my entire life (as well as other controllers). The A-800 actually shares this characteristic. It means your fingers ride high on the black keys, making less leverage on them (maybe this is why they made them so sensitive...) and I the sloped shoulders on the black keys, while making it easy to do grace notes off of, means there is less direct surface are on top. It also seems very easy to accidentally pull down an adjacent black key when playing a white key. My technique is not fabulous, but I do fine on other controllers and both eh A-800 and the FA-06 give me the same issue and they have the same keys. It is amazing, but drives me insane that this is basically the same price as the FA was when I bought it - so what corners did they cut... But it's like an FA with all the features the FA owners complained about not having (mapped samples, drawbar control maybe, more knobs, more wheels, etc.). Basically it looks like the hybrid of an FA and a Fantom, with FA price and build and features from the Fantom series (obviously from the name). So despite the hit I'd take on selling the FA, I would totally get this if the keys are not "shaved" and it doesn't have the issue with the Black Keys. I know you got the 07 to try so it might not be a fair comparison but at least I'd have a reference point to know if there's anything amiss with the 07, then the 06 is even more likely to have it... BTW, I actually use aftertouch quite a bit and my A-800 has it. I love it but I know I could use a controller with AT or assign it to a pedal or control if I really needed it. But basically I can't even really use piano sounds on the FA with any expressiveness at all. I know it's not a weighted 88 of course, but at the same time my scale shouldn't go f FSHARP g GSHARP A ASHARP when I play with the same pressure...

That's what I've heard but I've never really heard from anyone who did a side-by-side comparison. I'd be willing to trade in my 06 for an 07 if it were a significant enough improvement but I'm sure the trade in price I'd get and difference I'd have to pay would be off-putting.

Yea, that was a total shot in the dark. I know the trimpot for aftertouch sensitivity on the A800 fixed my (and others') issue with aftertouch needing excessive force to work. It's not like Roland is a new upstart company making their first keyboard. What gives with them and this keybed? New design? Why not just use the one in the A800? Why do I ask questions nobody can answer?! I'd be curious to know how well that midi solutions box works for you. Good luck! You know what's funny is the A-800 really feels very very much the same. I mean, I think someone couldn't tell in a blindfold test on feel alone (and not hearing keybed noise or any sounds) - without feeling the aftertouch part of course. But yeah you're right - I do have to bang down it pretty hard to get the aftertouch to work. They're also the same kind of "shaved dimensions" I've complained about everywhere :-). So you'd think it's the exact same keybed. Do people in Japan just not press keys very hard at all and have really small hands? Maybe the Suzuki Method has really impacted synth manufacturing! I mean you can easily take down a black key just by having a finger adjacent to it on the next white key - by "dragging it down from the side". I do way more "flams" on this than my other older keyboards (and this is true of the 800 for me as well). My problem is I really like a lot of the aspects of this board the price was really really good and I hate to sell it. My friend has an MX61 and we use that at gigs and I like the key size and action way better (though still not for piano of course but it's better than the FA by a mile) and many of the more stock keyboard sounds (EP, Wurli, etc.) are better IMHO. However, the synth stuff on the Roland is a lot more to my liking (as well as orchestral stuff). I think I'm going to try this Velocity Converter - based on my experiments thus far, it should work. If it does, that'll make a big difference.

It's a huge common complaint on this instrument so I don't think it's just a defective unit. Way out of warranty anyway. When the 88 and the 61 first came out people were shocked at how bad the Piano was on the 61 and someone connected the FA-08 to an 06 to use the 08's keybed MIDI'd into the synth engine of the 06 because at first it was believed the samples were actually different. However once they did this they confirmed that they sounded identical - it's just the keybed in the 06 was so horrible. I mean, if it was a simple as a trim pot...that would be wonderful. I started to say I found a new kink in the plan last night but I just tried turning Local Off and switching sounds with the Pads as I do and it still worked - I was afraid it would always stay on Channel 1 like an external keyboard does. But it looks like it's going to work as planned so I'm thinking of going ahead and trying this. I emailed MIDI Solutions last night and I may not hear from them until Monday but I think this might be a viable solution. Based on all the other research I've done I can't really believe it's just a trimpot - sounds more like it was just typical Roland shortcutting.

Not sure why you'd think this. I can turn the Local Off and plug single MIDI cable from the out jack to the in jack and it plays fine. Back in the old days we used to do goofy stuff like plug up two keyboards and use one to play the others sounds, and the others keys to play the first one's sounds. Just because you could.

So the FA has 3 keyboard "settings" of light, medium, and heavy, with a + and - 10 value for each. This setting affects the instrument globally. Then, each of the 16 parts has its own velocity curve - Off, and 1-4. But even at the highest settings, in any velocity curve, it's easy to trigger 127 on the black keys. Let's say you play a Bb chord - the Bb is hitting 127. the D and F may not. However, it's also fairly easy to get the white keys to trigger to 127 too. There is a "sensitivity" setting but what this does is bring the bottom velocities up so that no matter how lightly you play, it's sending say from 125-127 instead of 64-127. There are Velocity Limits but these are to do stuff like keep a sound from triggering until it reaches a certain velocity, or having it stop after it reaches a certain velocity. There's really no way to just keep it from sending 127 other than playing what I would consider extremely lightly. Now part of the issue is the sound - the piano sounds pretty darn good, but when you hit that 127 or near the top, it "klangs" - I mean it is like you'd expect a real piano to do but on a real piano you'd need to break a key to get it that tone - here, you just press a little hard and you've got klangy notes. Not all the sounds are like this so it's mainly a problem with the piano more than anything else - though some EPs will be too much bell to lightly, or trigger into bark before you want them to, etc. What I kind of need is a "compressor" or "brickwall limiter" on velocity values - so it never goes above say 120, but still gives me a decent amount of range from 0-120 (or even 48-120 or something like that). I found the manual for that device and it's got like 32 different curves. I see some of them never go above 104, some never go about 112 or 120, etc. So I'm thinking if I have it where the box just limits it to 104 at the most, even if I wang down on the black key and it sends a 127, it's going to get "compressed" down to 104 - while if I play 105 on a white key, it too will get compressed down 1 unit. While I realize I can't really separate the white and black keys, when I use similar curves on the A-800 it at the very least doesn't trigger the sound into the "klang". So what I'm hoping is that even though the internal keybed is sending values higher than I need, the curve will "limit" them to the top end I pick just as if they were coming in from another keyboard with that same kind of curve. The first time I plugged the A-800 into the FA and realized how much better it sounded and went "why?" I realized it was the different velocity curves in the A-800. I do have an experiment I can try because some of the Arturia instruments I have have a velocity limiter (and there might be one in Logic IIRC that I can try with the FA and see how that works - that'll give me maybe a better idea of these curves will have a similar playability. I mean realistically, ANYTHING is an an improvement. Right now about the only thing I can do is bring the sensitivity up so that I compress it upwards - light playing gives you 100s and hard playing still gives you 127 - but at least then the sound is consistently annoying and at a similar volume! But I'd rather compress it DOWN so that the top end gets limited. And BTW, audio compression is not an option because it's not really a volume issue but a timbre one mostly. So what I get is a quiet annoyingly clangy note rather than a loud annoyingly clangy note! I already did the Local Control Off and just ran a cable Out to In and that works fine (why wouldn't it!). Don't know how much latency if any such a device would impart but I can't believe it would be too much if even noticeable.

My FA keybed sucks. You even think about touching a black key and it immediately sends a velocity message of 129 (and I know there's only 127!). There is simply no way to limit the velocity to play Piano sounds and some other more dynamic instruments. I'm wondering if I can take a MIDI Cable out to a device like this: https://www.perfectcircuit.com/midi-solutions-velocity-controller.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwjdOIBhA_EiwAHz8xm5G-X9nt8mEv32kpl24nMbXlcqZWLZEFP3bDlLEBIO2zm4pXGC-k7BoCsGkQAvD_BwE And then back in from this same device, with Local Control OFF, and have the key bed feed through a velocity curve that's better for Piano (and other) sounds. Does anyone have any experience with these? It seems like it should work fine - at least better than the internal keyboard - I'm not expecting hammer action or anything but even my A-800 Pro has enough different curves that I can hit it as hard as I possibly can and can't get it to trigger 127.

Oddly I couldn't seem to find this one on YT but it is the Isolated Audio track that I have. But no one seems to know how to play just the keys.

Thanks all. Last night I used my current one at the next notch up, with the guitar case on it, and it was a much better height and still plenty stable. I had to drill an extra hole for the carabiner to go through but I'm pretty happy with it now. I haven't tried the 2nd tier in this configuration - it'll be pretty high but it may be OK as little as I use it now. Probably need to concentrate more on learning the tunes at this point ;-)

Mine is pretty deep actually - the bottom "rails" - the feet it stands on, essentially "poles" are 26" deep. If I align my keyboard with the front edge of the first tier - which is the same distance forward as the feet, they probably stick out about FOOT from the back of the keyboard to any wall I might be up against. Sometimes, putting them at the edge of the stage without going off is an issue!I just tried drilling another hole as in my other response and I'm going to try this higher setting tonight. That one moves one of the hole to the outside of the brace so I still have another position if I need something in-between. It's still wide enough. And if I need to still use the guitar case I can try that. This this is not going to topple over, so that's good...

No it is good to hear because essentially, I may not really need to upgrade. It is dang fast to set up and tear down - except a little extra time these days to put the carabiner in and out. It folds up with the 2nd tier locked down and fits in the car - carry it long ways and carry it at the same time as the keyboard bag. Honestly the angle and wobble are not really huge things - I could probably get some rubber or something to put on the upper tier. Except for the pin failure possibility, it's extremely sturdy. I'm just sitting here looking at it and thinking maybe I could drill a hole in the pin plate where I want the height - the pin won't engage at that point, but I can put the caribiner through and it ain't going nowhere. Of course the problem with an X is the taller you make it, the narrower it is...

I am looking to maybe upgrade my Proline stand I got for $99. It's a double-braced X-Style with a spring loaded handle you can pull to pull a pin out and adjust the height/width and release to pop the pin back in to lock it in place. The 2nd tier is pretty janky - it uses toothed "gears" and a tightening screw to lock them down - so like it has to be at the angle/position where a tooth exists - maybe 16 around the whole "sprocket". And it's manufactured poorly so you can't get it quite square. The top will angle down using the same toothed gears. But the whole 2nd tier is dependent on the lower tier width, and then if you angle it "splays" the upper tier arms in such a way that your top keyboard is never "true" in terms of horizontal level, front to back angle, and it'll wobble. It's not horrible and it's been working fine for me - paid for itself many times over. But it also tends to be such that to get the top tier at the position I want it's far enough forward to obscure the bottom keyboard. Also, even for the bottom tier, it's either too tall or too short for standing. I actually put a guitar case on it to add a bit of height - both my cases would probably be OK but I don't always bring 2 guitars and the extra weight seems silly just to do that! The pin has rounded off a bit and I actually had it collapse years ago. I drilled an extra hole and put a carabiner through it now as a safety backup, after making sure that pin is pushed all the way through (which I have to do manually with a tool as the spring alone is not enough force). But still, it's fast to set up and tear down, reposition, etc. I don't always use the upper tier and I can just leave them locked down so that's really nice. Nonetheless: I'm considering something like an Ultimate. My pedals are mounted on a board with feet but still walk, and I can touch the edge against the stand I have now to keep them from running away, so the whole "T" shape of the legs on an Ultimate might be a good thing. But I worry that an Ultimate isn't going to be tall enough. I would need the Lower keyboard to be up at a standing level. Someone else recommended a Standtastic that comes in a "tall" version. That thing just doesn't look very stable to me. I have reservations about both - I kind of don't like the idea of the "V" point of the Ultimate at the back - so there's no width at the back so I worry about that becoming a fulcrum point. I know people have been using them for decades (saw a video of a guy who's gigged one 27 years with minimal issues) but they always seem like a single column is just inviting disaster. But again, people seem fine with them. I just can't really justify sinking the money into a Spider. I'm looking for more like $200 and the Ultimate is right in there (don't really need the mic...) I don't think durability with the Ultimate is an issue. Bug I am concerned about stability and height - plus no angles on upper tier. The Standtastic is a bit more pricey, but has the angles, but I'm worried about durability (two people have now mentioned "cheaply made parts") and stability. Portability is an issue - I lug it int he floorboard of the back seat of a car. Not sure how the Standtastic breaks down (there don't seem to be any reviews or videos of it either, which never bodes well). BTW when one keyboard I use a Roland FA-06 which is pretty light (61 keys) and I'm worried without the width on the back side with an Ultimate one pound on a low octave C means the dang thing is going to flip off! Maybe I just need to keep what I have, and find some way to elevate it a bit more - I need to set it on some cinderblocks but who wants to haul those around!

And would care to share it? I'm getting triads like C and Bm (to make Am7 and D6) for the RH - seems like it basically does first inversion versions of C, Bm, and Am, and sometimes a higher 2nd inversion C, then down to a plain D triad. Though it varies throughout that seems to be the basic gist of it. The LH is a different story - I can hear "in between" low notes like a D or an E here and there...but the rest I have no clue - slow downer apps - I can pick some things out but just not skilled enough to really know if something "obvious" is going on. I'm not looking to exactly transcribe the whole thing but it would be nice to get at least a basic pattern down for both hands and then just kind of vary the upper triad parts for variety. Also the break - seems like something like A7sus4 - A-D-E-G - I've seen all kinds of variations - Am9 or Em/A or a G/A and things like that...Since the horns are also playing that one's not as big a deal. Too many things online are just "piano arrangements" that try to include the vocal lines or horns and so on. I just want what the EP actually plays, or at least a pass or two that I can use as a jumping off point - I prefer to play "note for note" outside of obvious improvisatory things, but while there's some improv going on here there is a "basic principle" and that's what I'm looking for. TIA if you can help.