News from Roland: Fantom 06/07/08

[AUSSIEKEYS]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:37 PM, AnotherScott said:

 

Here's what someone did to a Krome...

 

 

 

 I have two Roland XP80s. Both suffering from the dreaded melting red glue/goo that holds the key weights in. The red glue melts after years especially in hot climates making weights literally drop out.

 

I may have lost a few weights so i could rebuild one as standard (the as new in its box one). Then remove the keybed of the other (A well gigged by a friend of mine board) to make a desktop.

 

But is it worth it as i probably wouldnt get that into it as i dudnt really like my xp50(which my brother has 7 years after i forgot to pack it for our interstate move which may oneday come back to me) 

 

Dont know if i could be bothered and XP80s are slowly increasing in value so i shoukd just replace weights (I dont think id need to find too many lost ones. Hey i may still have all ofthem???)

 

In the old days I always longed for a cut down Prophet 5 (as I am a module type guy). When i finally got my P5 (the one in my avatar) It was cosmetically too good to contemplate doing that (it had midi so was an approproate candidate). It was to be a retirement resto project but its gone now to "save the ranch" so to speak so i didnt do that.

 

Ironically I believe there is a new P5 module available but my life is now of "trying to save the ranch" so cannot justify any new purchases. But I have many of my old stuff (non musical hobbies stuff and music stuff PAs etc) up for swapping for keyboard stuff on places like gggummtree to see what keyboard stuff i can enjoy as is or chop down as it was swapping not bought so maybe choppable toys.

 

I find I want to chop down many keyboards but that can be an error in judgement if they become valuable down the track. 

 

I was going to chop my spare parts non working Casio PX330 sideways to 73 or so keys to reduce weight for gigging but i hesitate as a rough estimate tells me I wont save much in weight. May as well just get a Numa Cocal 2x and save the agro.

 

I love the thought of chopped keyboards but you have to weigh up the usability and what is already available. Who would of thought all those years ago a P5 module would become available in modern times.

[LarsHarner2]

The Fantom 06 looks interesting to me and isn't priced bad in my opinion for a rompler factoring in a potential discount /coupon from one of the big box retailers. However, considering at some point many romplers have become more derivative vs the 90's when it seemed the every few years  there was a significant increase, the romplers could still be overpriced. Especially considering even though requiring a computer; VST's in general offer a better value in certain instances.

 

I did get a Nautilus and traded in the Krome towards it- IMHO there was a lot of marketing hype about the Krome and to me the sounds didn't really have any significant personality.

 

One of my favorite boards I had was the Roland Juno Gi due to the onboard 8 track digital recorder- could the Fantom 06 function in the same way?

 

 

[AnotherScott]

13 minutes ago, LarsHarner2 said:

One of my favorite boards I had was the Roland Juno Gi due to the onboard 8 track digital recorder- could the Fantom 06 function in the same way?

 

Not as far as I know, but I think you can do the same kind of thing (albeit not as easily) on your recently acquired Nautilus. Actually, I think that may be the only current keyboard you could do it on.

[zephonic]

I remember I got my Fantom X7 back in '05 and I sprang for the 8-track audio recorder upgrade, making it a true all in one solution.

 

Used that capability not even once all this time.

 

[ProfD]

On 4/13/2022 at 1:57 PM, zephonic said:

I exchanged my DS76 for the Fantom-07. Can't wait.

Brotha @zephonic, as a Roland guy, I think you are going to be very happy with that Fantom 07. 

 

This past weekend, I laid hands on both the Fantom 06 and 07 and despite the *shorter* keys it was fine to play. 😎

[zephonic]

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Brotha @zephonic, as a Roland guy, I think you are going to be very happy with that Fantom 07. 

 

This past weekend, I laid hands on both the Fantom 06 and 07 and despite the *shorter* keys it was fine to play. 😎

 

 

Hey D, I sent the Fantom-07 back. Nothing wrong with it, but the touch display was small and they just kinda shrank the GUI to where I felt it would not be very effective on a gig. Mind you, I did not actually gig with it (am out with tendonitis atm). I exchanged it for the Juno-X which should arrive by the end of the week.

 

FWIW, out of the box I found the Juno DS76 a more satisfying instrument than the Fantom-07. I kind of regret returning that one. Might buy it again if the Krome kicks the bucket.

 

[ProfD]

5 minutes ago, zephonic said:

I sent the Fantom-07 back...I exchanged it for the Juno-X which should arrive by the end of the week.

 

FWIW, out of the box I found the Juno DS76 a more satisfying instrument than the Fantom-07.

That's right...lost track of your exchanges. 😁

 

The Juno X should consolidate the Roland flavor and play well too.  😎

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

I laid hands on both the Fantom 06 and 07 and despite the *shorter* keys it was fine to play. 😎

Shorter than what? And just to confirm, the 06 and 07 have the same action, right? That seems to be the general assumption, but I read one report from someone who said they felt different. 

 

14 minutes ago, zephonic said:

FWIW, out of the box I found the Juno DS76 a more satisfying instrument than the Fantom-07. 

Action? Sounds? Operation/functionality? In case you say "yes" ;-) can you point to any particular sounds or categories of sounds? Or specific functions you missed, or operational aspects that were more intuitive/straight-forward, whatever? 

[ProfD]

14 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Shorter than what? And just to confirm, the 06 and 07 have the same action, right? That seems to be the general assumption, but I read one report from someone who said they felt different. 

No difference between the Fantom 06/07 keys.  I read they were shorter than the FA keys. 

 

I owned an FA-07 at one point.  I didn't feel like playing the Fantom 06/07 felt any different or worse.😎

[AnotherScott]

13 minutes ago, ProfD said:

No difference between the Fantom 06/07 keys.  I read they were shorter than the FA keys. 

Fantom 07 keys are longer than the FA-06 keys. But yes, I think they are shorter than the FA-07.

 

13 minutes ago, ProfD said:

I owned an FA-07 at one point.  I didn't feel like playing the Fantom 06/07 felt any different or worse.😎

Uh huh. Although FA-06, FA-07, and Fantom-07 use three different actions, I don't think any of them feel wildly different from the others, and that being the case, even if one prefers one over another, you're not likely to prefer it by a whole lot.

[EscapeRocks]

I've had two solid gigs now with my new Fantom-08

 

For these two, I did not use my computer rig.  Rather, all sounds came from the -08

I used my Arturia Keylab 61 up top.  It was plugged in and powered by the Ext Inst USB port on the Fantom.  It worked perfectly.

 

I made extensive use of the INT and EXT setting in the scenes, as well as different pad modes per scene.  Sometimes I had them in part switching mode, and sometimes in Sample Playback trigger mode.

I also made use of importing MP3 to a key for some track we fly in, such as the arpeggio during the last chorus of Faithfully.  I assigned ti to the lowest "A" on its own part.  Then the other parts key ranges were adjusted to their lowest was "B"

I then assign Switch2 ( S2) to Latch mode and CC#64 so I did not have to hold the key. 

 

ToneWheel organ parts were, of course, assigned to part 2 in whichever scene I needed.  While in an Organ scene, pressing the "Param" button brings up the ToneWheel organ screen that has all 9 drawbars. (I used the physical drawbars).     It also has sections to really dial in your percussion, drive, amp, Vib/Chrous, etc... which I did when setting up the sounds for the gig.

 

The aftertouch implementation on many of the the synth tones were programed very nicely by Roland.  I played most synth tones from the Arturia, and made use of its excellent aftertouch keybed.

 

I am very pleased with the new board as a performance board.

 

As with most workstation type boards, you do have to take the dive to really dial in various sound the way you want.  Effects chains, tones, partials, etc.. can get really deep.    My history with Roland started with a Fantom X6, then my old FA-08 so I have a good understanding of their way of menus.    Matrix Mode is very cool

 

All in all, this was a good purchase.

 

That small Mackie Mixer is for my ears.  Feed from FOH for VOX and band, keys direct from the "thru" of my Radial Pro D2 DI.  I used my iPad and X32 App to dial in the relative levels.

 

 

 

 

The obligatory sepia tone artistic shot

 

The setup in my stand lab

 

 

[ABECK]

Great report. This has to be the most scaled down rig I've seen you post!  Awesome to hear you could cover the whole gig with 1 sound source.

[MathOfInsects]

I went to Roland Worldwide Headquarters, aka the local GC, yesterday,

 

I like the sexy clothes they put the middle-aged Roland bodies in.

 

I like Fantom's touchscreen.

 

I was confounded that the faders seemed completely user-assignable--that is, that they didn't seem to be pre-set to control certain parameters. That could completely be the state of the demos at the moment I touched them, and not a "truth" about the Fantoms in general. And it might be something I would have to have "enabled." But for $4k, my initial response was, "Well, what ARE they for then?"

 

We've already covered the missing 9th slider.

 

Action was lovely on the Fantom 6/7's and very Roland-like on the -0X and Junos. I have no idea if the Fantom X is actually better action or that was just the feeling of playing 2.5k more dollars creating some confirmation bias.

 

Fantom 8 had gorgeous action. I assume is the RD-2000 action? It felt much better under my fingers than other Roland weighteds.

I already have Roland's most recent previous middle-aged crisis in my rig. 

Yesterday I thought, "Let me go back through the 12,479 similar-sounding saws and see if there is anything I might have missed or changed my mind about, to use as a starting point for more synth-solo sounds." I have a Studio Set with five or six different patches that I've tweaked to be how I like. 

I sat here and scrolled through literally every lead patch on the FA-06. 12,274 sound the same. Three are squares instead of saws. Two are techno blats. A couple are cool motion-gimmicks. The rest are versions of the main ones that I've messed with. Of course I'm exaggerating, but JUST BARELY.

To heartily agree with my previous comments, I feel Roland would need to update its approach to patches and/or its action/interface--including aftertouch basically everywhere--to warrant getting more of my $. But I do appreciate the styling and build quality of its upper-end synths. It just seems clearly aimed at the Rolling Stone Magazine crowd.

[EscapeRocks]

8 minutes ago, ABECK said:

Great report. This has to be the most scaled down rig I've seen you post!  Awesome to hear you could cover the whole gig with 1 sound source.

Thank you!

 

I did miss the computer for some things/sounds that I can only really dial in with VSTs   I just hadn't finished it's setup with the Fantom.     Next gig will have my MBP Pro 14" M1 back on the scene

[zephonic]

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Action? Sounds? Operation/functionality? In case you say "yes" ;-) can you point to any particular sounds or categories of sounds? Or specific functions you missed, or operational aspects that were more intuitive/straight-forward, whatever? 

 

Out of the box, the Juno DS76 seems designed for gigs. No need for a manual, just power up and go. For longtime Roland users like me everything is where you expect it to be. With the Fantom-07 I felt I was not gonna be able to get along with the smaller touch display, at least not on gigs. 

 

But I exchanged it for the Juno-X mostly because aftertouch.

[AnotherScott]

Another thought about the action... As much as people--including me--have found the Fantom-07 action disappointing, I also feel I should qualify that. For pianos, where non-hammer actions are at a disadvantage to begin with, the Fantom-07 is in the category of less satisfactory options. But if you're playing organs, synths, strings, brass, etc.... really, I think it's fine. So while I'd be hesitant to recommend it to strongly as a "bottom" (or "only") board where it will likely serve heavily in piano duties, I'd have no qualms at all about recommending it for a "top" board.

[AnotherScott]

Picking up from my previous post... I think Fantom-07 has a good action for organ, a poor action for piano (probably where the FA-07 action had the biggest advantage), and an okay action for the in-between. Which kind of relates to this next topic, an old favorite... pairings.

 

I'm going to use it on a duo gig this weekend, it's me and a guitarist. I'll be using its drum patterns for some of the songs, which is why it will definitely be one of my pair. I was deciding whether to put it over either the Kurzweil PC4-7 or the Yamaha YC73.

 

PC4-7 advantages over YC73 (for this gig and pairing) = lighter travel weight, aftertouch, 10 patch select buttons instead of 8, more useful for a wider range of sounds if called for (and while it'd not a hammer action board, I still find it better than most non-hammer boards for pianos/EPs)

 

YC73 advantages over PC4-7 (for this gig and pairing) = more satisfying for pianos/EPs (sound/playability), better clonewheel (which I could also play from the Fantom-07 above, though I haven't looked into setting that up on the Fantom yet), and a slightly more compact and (to me) nicer aesthetic

 

Since 75% of my bottom board work will be pianos/EPs, I'll go with the Yamaha... though I have yet to program in my typical bank of favorite sounds into either the Roland or the Yamaha, so I'm just assuming that, between the two of them, I'll find something I'll be pretty happy with for the usual necessary sounds. There's so much I like about all these boards, it would be nice to gig with the three, but that's just silly for a duo! This will actually be my first gig using either of these boards. I hope there will be no unpleasant surprises!

 

Next...

 

On a more typical gig, where the drum stuff is not a deciding factor, I was also thinking about what I'd rather put above a YC73... the Fantom-07 or the PC4-7, and it looks like a close call... with the caveat that there's lots of stuff I haven't yet tried on the Roland, and I may find some of it doesn't work as smoothly in practice as it does in theory. But at least from a superficial comparison, at least for my uses, sounds aside...

 

The main way I think the PC4-7 will beat the Fantom-07 is expressivity/playability... i.e. aftertouch, ribbon, additional pedal, and better action for everything but organ (though for organ, it does have better controls and high trigger... which also means it would be better for controlling B-3X/VB3 on an iPad if I were to go that way, or for playing the organ from the YC73 below).

 

The main way I think the Fantom-07 will beat the PC4-7 is usability... i.e. touchscreen patch selection, one-button access to 16 sounds vs. 10, easier synth programming/tweaking, pads, easier loading of custom samples (though there's a lot less memory for them), what seems a simpler interface in general, and I think easier ability to repeatedly bring the same external sounds into your scenes/multis. Seamless switching works better in terms of not having to think about it (though at the expense of effects flexibility, and dropping the board from 16 parts to 8). I also mentioned the drums earlier... they both do drum patterns, but Fantom is easier to set up, easily switchable in real-time between intro/verse/chorus/ending patterns, and you can more freely change sounds at will while keeping the drums running (nice for segues, for example).

 

I haven't mentioned deep programmability, MIDI functionalities, sequencer functions, DAW integration, arpeggiators, vocoder, etc... because either they're not things I need, or because I think either board is sufficient in these areas for my gigging requirements.

 

But sounds are also pretty important. ;-) I haven't had an opportunity yet to really compare them, based on the sounds I most need. Off the bat, I like that the Kurzweil has DX7 FM synth compatibility. I suspect each will have numerous sounds I will prefer over the other, but... TBD.

 

Although as I said it would be silly for a duo gig, I could see possibly sometimes gigging with all three. Despite overlaps, they have unique strengths, too.

Moving on...

 

So anyway, as you've guessed by now, I've decided to keep the Fantom-07. Considering what else I have at my disposal, there's no one thing that makes it a must-have (I'm not sure it's best at any one thing), but the combination of what it does in a single, light board makes it really appealing... and despite some quirks, I'm generally feeling good about just the way it works. And I think it's going to facilitate selling numerous other boards. Not that it "fully" replaces anything I've got in sounds/functionalities, but it's "close enough" that it's probably not worth keeping the other things for the differences. Things that may be finding their way to the Garage Sale include...

 

Korg PA1000 -- the Fantom can do the drum accompaniment as well. I'll miss the aftertouch but not the weight, and since I got the Dexibell P3, I haven't been using the Korg for its speakers (though it does have some particularly nice sounds).

 

Casio MZ-X500 -- I got it before the PA1000, but I kept it as an alternative for its own advantages... lighter weight, 16 trigger pads, 9 slider organ control, which the Fantom-0 pretty much does as well (with a better drawbar organ engine than either the Casio or the PA1000). Also, I'm picking up an extra octave of keys compared to the Casio or PA1000. Yes, I'm losing the full arranger functions of both of them... but while I always liked the idea of dabbling with that, I've never actually done it, and don't think I'd really miss it.

 

Roland Integra-7 -- yeah, it's got way more SN Acoustic Tones in it, but the Fantom-0 still gives me a bunch of the ones I like, and realistically, I'm much less likely to bring a rack module to a gig than to bring the Fantom-0. In fact, I've never actually brought the Integra to a gig. It's a really nice piece, but not necessary enough for my gigs for me to bother with a rack. (I'm hoping we'll see more of the SN-Acoustic tones coming to the Fantom platform, but I'm not counting on it.)

 

Roland AX-Edge -- I have another possible keytar solution if I feel the urge. The AX-Edge is the most full-featured keytar, but for my minimal use of one, I don't necessarily need it all. Plus I never warmed to its look anyway. Even as keytars go. ;-) But the reason the Fantom-0 purchase pushes its relevance down a little further is that an extra perk of the AX-Edge was it also added a Roland sound set with ZEN-Core expansion capability, and now I've got that and more in the Fantom-0 as well.

 

Nord Stage 3 -- believe it or not. Actually, I was leaning toward selling this anyway, I've so rarely gigged with it, due to its own limitations for my purposes (discussed a bit in the "disappointments" thread), even though it is a really great board. But coincidentally, it's another board where I'm not sure it's best at any one thing. (Maybe acoustic piano.) What I liked best was that it was the board I could most quickly put together a custom patch on. But I think the Fantom-0 might not be far behind, we'll see.

 

MODX7 -- maybe the one I'd most miss, it's one of my favorite boards. But there's so much overlap, between my recently acquired YC73 and the capabilities of both the Fantom-0 and the PC4-7.  (Other than maybe the PA1000, it's the only board here I'd be about as likely to miss for its sounds as for its functionalities.)

 

That'll do for tonight. ;-)

[Stokely]

I'm (kind of) losing my GAS for a Fantom, simply due to practicality.  Bird in the hand and all that.  Speaking of my MODX7 of course.  I have seriously undervalued it I fear.  It's never been a keyboard I "loved" probably due to build and keys and wall wart, and I don't care for touchscreens much.  However...it simply sounds great.   Besides the easy ipad integration, I think I let the lousy stock synth patches influence  me.  When I have finally sat down and started constructing some from scratch--just simple leads and poly synths--they sound pretty much other synths.  A little less "wobbly" and alive than my Summit, but for live use that isn't a horrible thing.  I wouldn't expect a workstation to compete with a Summit or Prophet let alone an OB6 or something in the analog sound area.  FM pads and poly synths in particular work well live as they have a clarity (or can have) and of course I can layer these with sample-based sounds.

I think I'd be equally happy with the Fantom-0s, from playing my buddy's I think there would be leanings and pros and cons between them.   The biggest pro for the Fantom is that I wouldn't feel the need to use an ipad because the organ is good.  Then again, despite some hiccups months ago, B-3x and the ipad have functioned flawlessly to the point where it acts like a second screen of the MODX.  I hit a patch with zones set to the B-3X channel and it simply works.

Bottom line, the grass always looks greener over there....

[AnotherScott]

37 minutes ago, Stokely said:

I'm (kind of) losing my GAS for a Fantom, simply due to practicality.  Bird in the hand and all that.  Speaking of my MODX7 of course.  

MODX7 is, as I said, one of my favorite boards. Compared specifically to the Fantom-0, for my particular uses...

 

...I prefer its action (by quite a bit)

...I like that it has the DX7-compatible FM synth (though I have that in my PC4-7 as well)

...it's got more user sample space (though I haven't used any of it, in part because it's complicated)

...it's nice that it takes audio in from an iPad over USB

...it has endless encoders for some things where Fantom-0's equivalents are fixed pots

...I think it's generally stronger at acoustic instrument sounds, though this is always going to be a subjective mix, I'd expect most people to find some sounds they prefer on each. (Technically, Yamaha's sampled sounds can consist of many more elements which is an advantage; though OTOH, Roland also has a bunch of SuperNATURAL sounds which add modeling components.) In my case, though, since I always use (at least) two boards, that increases the odds that I'll find something close to my favorite MODX sounds in at least one of the pair.

 

Fantom-0 advantages:

... the seamless switching works with up to 8 Parts instead of up to 4 (though the part that really annoys me about the Yamaha here is that, if you have anything assigned to any of Parts 9-16--as you are likely to if you're using MIDI to integrate with other gear--seamless switching stops working, even if you haven't exceeded 4 Parts)

... assignable outs

... the easier and more flexible drum accompaniment mentioned earlier

... more hard controls (both assignable ones and ones that are dedicated to certain functions)

... better organ (in sound and controls)

... should be better sounding VA synth (I haven't actually played with that yet)

... trigger pads

... generally simpler operation from what I've seen so far

 

(Again, I'm not mentioning things like differences in sequencer functions, DAW controls, arpeggiators, etc., because they're not very relevant to me.)

 

But yes, bird-in-hand can easily be a factor, both financially (no out-of-pocket in staying with what you have) and presumably in time invested (since you'd have to commit the time to recreate patches you've already created in the MODX).

[Stokely]

That pretty much sums up my impression of the two instruments.  I never use more than 3 (maaayyyybeee 4 on a song or two) parts, don't sequence and never use the motion or arp stuff simply because we don't run a click live.   I may like the Fantom-0 keybed a bit more, I tend to flail too fast on the ultra-light MODX keybed.  Especially if I'm going back and forth between the Forte and MODX!  

When making patches, I try to use the ones that are one part only, because some of them when combined end up being too many parts to manage.  Now that I'm going mono all the time, this also makes more sense because it seems that some of these multi-part performances are that way simply to have a more stereo sound (parts are panned out).

The VA engine(s) are my main point of interest in the Fantoms, specifically I'd be very keen to try out the JX plugin even if I had to purchase it.  I did a lot of gigs with a JX10 and there's definitely a nostalgia factor.   My rig at the end of the 80s was that JX10 and a Proteus, and I think for a while I had a Kawai something that I used mainly for leads.  That was a very capable rig for that time period!    But as I say, I'm finding the MODX pretty good for making the type of simple synth sounds I tend to use live.  I heard a recent recording and it sounded better than I expected on some early 80s tunes.

[AnotherScott]

8 minutes ago, Stokely said:

When making patches, I try to use the ones that are one part only, because some of them when combined end up being too many parts to manage. 

Yes, I also prefer sticking with single-part sounds when working with combinations of sounds, because then you actually get a slider-per-sound for volume controls. And the sonic advantages of multi-part instruments over single-part equivalents are unlikely to be very noticeable live, especially if you're playing them in combination with other sounds as well.

 

8 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Now that I'm going mono all the time, this also makes more sense because it seems that some of these multi-part performances are that way simply to have a more stereo sound (parts are panned out).

Interesting point, I never thought about that.

 

17 minutes ago, Stokely said:

The VA engine(s) are my main point of interest in the Fantoms, specifically I'd be very keen to try out the JX plugin even if I had to purchase it.  I did a lot of gigs with a JX10 and there's definitely a nostalgia factor

What a perfect segue to the next thing I wanted to discuss!

 

I was looking at the synth expansions for the Fantom-0, and there are some interesting ways of looking at it. The first one I'm looking at is the JX-8P expansion, which is close to my old MKS-70 (rack version of JX10) that I also liked a lot. In fact, I believe the biggest difference compared to the JX-8P is that the MKS-70/JX-10 let you layer split/two sounds while the JX-8P didn't... but as an expansion, I figure you could just load two instances into two parts, and then really, this becomes more of an MKS-70/JX-10 emulation anyway!

But before spending $149 on the JX-8P expansion, I also started thinking about the alternatives...

... for $399, you can buy the JX-08 Boutique, which should be sonically identical (and surprisingly, it lets you split/layer two sounds too!). You can run it as an external sound in a zone on the Fantom-0, so it kind of can do the same thing the model expansion does (more on that in a minute)... but it has the advantage of hard physical controls for programming, and not having to navigate from screen to screen to get to all the parameters, plus I could even bring it to gigs where I decide the Fantom-07 is not coming. As a bonus, someone is working on a program that he says will let you move programs from the JX-08 to the Fantom-07, even without having the model expansion installed, so it really can fully take the place of the model expansion IF you don't care about tweaking/editing it once it's in the Fantom-0. (For that, you'd need to have the model expansion installed, or you'd have to go back and do the editing in the JX-08.) But this software isn't available yet, and who knows, there's a chance it may never happen.

 

OR...

... for $149, you can buy the lifetime license to the Roland Cloud version, and load that onto (in my case) a Surface Pro (which I keep threatening to gig with some day). Again, I'd still be able to access it from the Fantom-0, as an external sound... though it's a little complicated because Roland Cloud stuff doesn't recognize MIDI Program Change. (Boo!) I'm told you can get around this by accessing the VST through Gig Performer, though... which I'd probably be using anyway if I were going to gig with the Surface. And again, like the JX-08, it means I could have access to it even on gigs when I don't want to bring the Fantom-07, and the computer screen interface similarly provides simultaneous  access to many more controls, compared to the screen paging of the expansion models for the Fantoms. I'm guessing this version splits/layers as well (worst case, by running two instances). That same software I mentioned above is also supposed to support moving patches back and forth between the keyboard and the Zenology software, so again, as long as I don't mind doing all the editing/tweaking on the computer, it could give me basically the same functionality as the model expansion (again, if and when that software evolves from vaporware). Compared to the JX-08, you lose the hard controls, which are really nice for patch creation and live knob-grabbing. OTOH, when editing, there's also something to be said for screen controls which are always in the "right" place. One more benefit... It's been mentioned that, when you buy a model expansion for the keyboard, you can't transfer its license if you end up selling the keyboard in the future. So putting that $149 into a Lifetime License for your computer might be more sensible from that perspective, since you can keep using it even if you end up selling the keyboard at some point, as opposed to having the product (and the $149 you invested in it) simply "evaporate" when you sell the board.

There are similar, though not identical, considerations when looking at some of the other model expansions, like the Jupiter 8. The one you load into the Fantom is the ABM version; but if you take the Cloud route, you actually have the option of installing either the ABM or ACB versions. The short version is, one emulation is more sonically accurate and the other has less CPU overhead and more polyphony. They also have different on-screen interfaces. See THIS POST for further discussion of this. All three versions (keyboard model expansion, and the two cloud versions) cost the same $149. But of the two cloud version, only the ABM version could create patches that that future software might be able to load into the Fantom keyboards; the ACB version would be something where you'd always have to be connected to the computer for those sounds.(There was also a hardware ACB module, the JP-08, but it's no longer available... it would have the advantage of hard controls, but it also has only 4 voice polyphony, unless you buy two of them.)

Anyway, I just figured I'd toss all that out there, to think about if you're considering buying model expansions. If anyone has gone down this route and thinks I've missed some important differences among the versions of these things, let me know. All my knowledge here is theoretical, I haven't used any of them.

 

So, Stokely, getting back to your particular scenario, another possibility you have here, if you're tempted by Roland's JX emulation but want to stick with your MODX, is to consider the JX-08, or, if you have a giggable PC, possibly one of the $149 Roland Cloud implementations. The complication could be finding the smoothest way to integrate that device in conjunction with the iPad you've already got attached for organ. Assuming the JX-08 for now, the complication I see is that the iPad is already on your USB port, and the MODX doesn't directly let you simultaneously directly use its 5-pin port. I think the answer might be to use another iPad app (i.e. Camelot Pro or Keystage) to route MIDI to both your organ app and the external JX-08, which you could either also attach to the iPad (through some kind of additional interface or hub or possibly bluetooth with a CME WIDI), or you might be able to attach it to the 5-pin jacks on the MODX since, with software routing via the iPad, I believe there's a way you can then address the 5-pin and USB ports of the MODX simultaneously and independently. I've come across discussion of that, but haven't paid much attention since I haven't needed to do it.
 

[Fleer]

If the Fantom-0’s action is worse than the MODX’s, I’ll never ever get the former as I already deeply dislike the latter for its clacky flimsiness. 

[AnotherScott]

17 minutes ago, Fleer said:

If the Fantom-0’s action is worse than the MODX’s, I’ll never ever get the former as I already deeply dislike the latter for its clacky flimsiness. 

Well, the good news is that the Roland action is not at all clacky. But it pushes back more than the MODX, and is less even front-to-back, and has a squishy landing. But actions are always subjective, I'm sure there are people who think the Fantom-06/07 action is better than the MODX6/7. You'll have to try it yourself to see what you think.

[Biggles]

First of the Roland Playlist is now live

 

 

[Stokely]

I've only played the Fantom-07 once, but to me it feels a bit more "quality" than the Modx.  I'm not going to say it's tp-9 from my old Virus, but it's somewhere between that and the MODX.  IMO of course.  Definitely more pushback but I think I prefer that.  I didn't play any piano on it though.  I probably would not do so unless it was my only keyboard.  I find the MODX very difficult to play piano on and it took a while to get a light enough touch to make it work (and choosing a velocity curve).

I have given serious thought to he JX-08.  To the point where I'm considering where I'd put the darn thing in my rig.  My spider pro has a laptop tray option (much cheaper at Thomann) but it only goes on top, so my handy mic boom adapter would have to be sacrified and I'd be back to bringing--and maybe forgetting--a mic stand.    K&M also had a mic mount adapter that can go anywhere on the central stalk, with the JX-08 being so light that could be an option if I could affix it.   The problem with putting certain things on the spider pro though, like a 3rd set of arms--it would no longer fold up neatly.  The two arms that come with it leave little room for anything else once folded, and taking something off requires (iirc) you to unscrew the top.  Blargh on that.   I could potentially put the JX-08 in the bare space on my MODX7--but that's where my ipad is! 

Honestly using an ipad poly synth like Zeeon probably is the more practical approach if I want to add anything.  I'm frankly getting some pretty nice poly sounds out of MODX now that I'm taking the time to program it a bit.   I've also considered adding the "Analog experience" library, it comes with 230MB of samples and a lot of patches.  Thinking back to my JX-10, I certainly did not do much heavy programming.  I used the stock "Poly synth" WAY too much, along with the strings and one of the Moog-ish solo patches.  Those sounds I can readily achieve.  I'm sure there are some Jx-specific sounds that could be more difficult but I'm not stringent on matching sounds for anything.

One thing I always try to remember about adding more sound sources--that's more patch leveling headaches.  I'm already having issues with just one or two keyboards.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail into the MODX so much.  I really like what I saw and heard of the Fantom-0 and will likely take it for another spin when I get a chance.  I might consider the big brother as well if I see a good new or used deal.

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, Stokely said:

I have given serious thought to the JX-08.  To the point where I'm considering where I'd put the darn thing in my rig. 

 

Thinking back to my JX-10, I certainly did not do much heavy programming.  I used the stock "Poly synth" WAY too much, along with the strings and one of the Moog-ish solo patches.  Those sounds I can readily achieve.  I'm sure there are some JX-specific sounds that could be more difficult but I'm not stringent on matching sounds for anything.

It reads like the questions to answer are 1) which Roland sound(s) do you feel are missing from your toolbox and 2) is it impossible to get a reasonable facsimile of those sounds from the MODX.  

 

Adding a JX-08 could be a more viable alternative in getting a handful of necessary(?) Roland sounds rather than swapping out the MODX you kinda know and enjoy kicking it with for a whole Fantom you've gotta learn to love.  😁😎

[Stokely]

You know how it goes--once you open up a new "line of thought", which is in this case, tabletops....then you start thinking "well why not do *this* then".

I started looking at various other synths before you know it.   I'm not really set on using Roland sounds, in fact even when I owned the JX10 I pined after Prophets and Oberheims!  I do like them and as I said there is that nostalgia factor.

If I made room for a tabletop and committed to using one in the rig, who knows I might end up with a Peak (I like my Summit's sounds) or the comparatively huge Ob-6....

[Aynsley Green]

11 hours ago, Stokely said:

I've only played the Fantom-07 once, but to me it feels a bit more "quality" than the Modx.  I'm not going to say it's tp-9 from my old Virus, but it's somewhere between that and the MODX.  IMO of course.  Definitely more pushback but I think I prefer that.  I didn't play any piano on it though.  I probably would not do so unless it was my only keyboard.  I find the MODX very difficult to play piano on and it took a while to get a light enough touch to make it work (and choosing a velocity curve).

I have given serious thought to he JX-08.  To the point where I'm considering where I'd put the darn thing in my rig.  My spider pro has a laptop tray option (much cheaper at Thomann) but it only goes on top, so my handy mic boom adapter would have to be sacrified and I'd be back to bringing--and maybe forgetting--a mic stand.    K&M also had a mic mount adapter that can go anywhere on the central stalk, with the JX-08 being so light that could be an option if I could affix it.   The problem with putting certain things on the spider pro though, like a 3rd set of arms--it would no longer fold up neatly.  The two arms that come with it leave little room for anything else once folded, and taking something off requires (iirc) you to unscrew the top.  Blargh on that.   I could potentially put the JX-08 in the bare space on my MODX7--but that's where my ipad is! 

Honestly using an ipad poly synth like Zeeon probably is the more practical approach if I want to add anything.  I'm frankly getting some pretty nice poly sounds out of MODX now that I'm taking the time to program it a bit.   I've also considered adding the "Analog experience" library, it comes with 230MB of samples and a lot of patches.  Thinking back to my JX-10, I certainly did not do much heavy programming.  I used the stock "Poly synth" WAY too much, along with the strings and one of the Moog-ish solo patches.  Those sounds I can readily achieve.  I'm sure there are some Jx-specific sounds that could be more difficult but I'm not stringent on matching sounds for anything.

One thing I always try to remember about adding more sound sources--that's more patch leveling headaches.  I'm already having issues with just one or two keyboards.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail into the MODX so much.  I really like what I saw and heard of the Fantom-0 and will likely take it for another spin when I get a chance.  I might consider the big brother as well if I see a good new or used deal.

 

I use the 'Analog Experience' library almost exclusively on the MODX, the factory patches aren't great. 
Also true for the 'Purgatory Creek' electric pianos.

 

Now I've upgraded to the JX-08, and yeah, big jump in quality (it's the same JX-8P engine as in the Fantom). It's far less flexible than a workstation, but you do get the knobby interface.

Really, if one needed the workstation firepower AND convincing fake-analog, the Fantom-06 is the only real choice. But then, the pianos/electric pianos on the Fantom-06 kind of suck.
For a double rig, I would go Yamaha YC88 on the bottom (great pianos) and Fantom-06 on the top (covers everything else).
But, because I am lazy, I bring the JX-08 module and sit it on the YC88 music stand. Gets you most of the same sounds, if you're not doing anything too fancy.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

Really, if one needed the workstation firepower AND convincing fake-analog, the Fantom-06 is the only real choice. But then, the pianos/electric pianos on the Fantom-06 kind of suck.

I think you're short-changing Nautilus and Kurzweil PC4/PC4-7/K2700... both of which are "true" workstations and have above average VA capabilities.

 

2 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

For a double rig, I would go Yamaha YC88 on the bottom (great pianos) and Fantom-06 on the top (covers everything else).

As I mentioned in this earlier post, I'm about to do my first gig with what is almost that pair... YC73 on bottom, Fantom-07 on top. It's a duo, just me and a guitarist. The Yamaha will do all the usual "bottom keyboard" stuff (pianos, EPs, etc.), and also most if not all of the organ. The Roland will do the strings, brass, etc., but also, for the rockier stuff, I'll be using it for LH bass and drum patterns. On the Yamaha, I'll be using one of my old tricks, layering piano and organ, with the expression pedal affecting the organ but not the piano. I can get almost organ alone by playing softly with the pedal at max; almost piano alone by playing at any velocity with the pedal at minimum; or play them together. I find that works really well when my left hand is busy playing bass on the other board, it gives me a lot of range of things to do with my right hand sound as I play, without requiring my other hand for anything.

 

2 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

But, because I am lazy, I bring the JX-08 module and sit it on the YC88 music stand.

I don't actually need a lot of really synthy sounding stuff on most gigs, but I do like those JX-8P/JX-10 sounds. As I discussed in this post, I haven't decided the best way to get them, between the JX-08, the JX-8P Fantom model expansion, or the JX-8P Zenology model expansion, running on the Surface Pro that is sitting around here not doing much. I'm a hardware guy, so my instinct is to get the module, but really, I'll probably never touch a slider during performance, which makes me think the zenology approach is probably best, if can just get past my windows resistance! If that app comes out that would let me move the patches into the Fantom, I think that would push me over the edge to take that route.

[Aynsley Green]

On 5/14/2022 at 1:36 PM, AnotherScott said:

I think you're short-changing Nautilus and Kurzweil PC4/PC4-7/K2700... both of which are "true" workstations and have above average VA capabilities.

 

True, but the Virtual Analog technology in both of those guys date back to the 90s (Korg Oasys and VAST), and sound their age. ZenCore is actually new, and of comparable quality to today's VSTs.

 

On 5/14/2022 at 1:36 PM, AnotherScott said:

On the Yamaha, I'll be using one of my old tricks, layering piano and organ, with the expression pedal affecting the organ but not the piano. I can get almost organ alone by playing softly with the pedal at max; almost piano alone by playing at any velocity with the pedal at minimum; or play them together. I find that works really well when my left hand is busy playing bass on the other board, it gives me a lot of range of things to do with my right hand sound as I play, without requiring my other hand for anything.

 

I shall give this trick a try.

 

On 5/14/2022 at 1:36 PM, AnotherScott said:

I don't actually need a lot of really synthy sounding stuff on most gigs, but I do like those JX-8P/JX-10 sounds. As I discussed in this post, I haven't decided the best way to get them, between the JX-08, the JX-8P Fantom model expansion, or the JX-8P Zenology model expansion, running on the Surface Pro that is sitting around here not doing much. I'm a hardware guy, so my instinct is to get the module, but really, I'll probably never touch a slider during performance, which makes me think the zenology approach is probably best, if can just get past my windows resistance! If that app comes out that would let me move the patches into the Fantom, I think that would push me over the edge to take that route.

Laptop-route is also valid, but you lose the tactile element, reliability and the cool-factor.