Kurz K2700 leslie sim

[Delaware Dave]

Looks like Kurzweil stepped up their game on the leslie sim front.  In Steve Fortner's K2700 topic here:

 

 

On March 8th Steve posted three audio clips of the new single leslie on the K2700 which I attached one of them below. Not too shabby.  Would be nice to understand if this would end up in or is already in the PC4.  I attached the one with all drawbars out.   

 

 

[Dave Bryce]

I was just listening to those examples in the Gearlab thread as well.  Does sound better than earlier KB3 offerings.

 

dB

[Al Coda]

better, but pitchy still.

 

single- or double leslie ?

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[Mighty Motif Max]

That sounds like my PC4's "Big Rotary" patch. Oddly enough I thought the PC3 sounded better in terms of the rotary sim; the PC4 seems more warbly to me.

[Al Coda]

58 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

That sounds like my PC4's "Big Rotary" patch. Oddly enough I thought the PC3 sounded better in terms of the rotary sim; the PC4 seems more warbly to me.

 

I guess PC3, 4 or K2700 is all the same.

When there are (halfway significant) differences, it´s all about editing the complex parameter set of KURZ rotary algorithm.

I invested too much time, it seems !

 

A.C.

 

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

When the rotors slow down its clear to me that the pitchiness is created by the C/V interaction with the rotors and not the rotors themselves. The C/V needs to be tamed.  I actually think they got the rotors right; next up is to clean up the C/V.

[Al Coda]

15 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

When the rotors slow down its clear to me that the pitchiness is created by the C/V interaction with the rotors and not the rotors themselves. The C/V needs to be tamed.  I actually think they got the rotors right; next up is to clean up the C/V.

 

I didn´t mention C/V at al.

The rotary sim, especially as a single leslie introduces too much amount of pitch modulation when rotary speed is "fast".

I recognized the "Lo Size" and "Hi Size" parameters affect doppler effect pitch modulation, but regardless what I did, it was very hard to find the settings eliminating pitchyness.

It works to some degree, but not perfect,- unfortunately.

I´ve found setings here it was acceptable for "fast" speed, but then, these setting made "slow" rotary effect almost inaudible.

I invested a lot of time editing a single and a double leslie being halfway useful for me,- but some of the software solutions do it much better,- IK B3X or VB3-2 p. ex..

And yes,- compared to the software clones, Kurz´ C/V is also too warbly.

 

I think, the rotary speaker edit page w/ it´s 48 user parameters is too complicated .

No average user understands the interaction of these in depth.

 

Instead of coming w/ 1 dedicated leslie for each organ program, there should be one perfect single- and one perfect double leslie usable for every organ program and it would be good if there were the possibiluty using it global just to route a KB3 organ and a VAST organ (for lower manual) thru the same leslie.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[Delaware Dave]

12 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

I didn´t mention C/V at al.

The rotary sim, especially as a single leslie introduces too much amount of pitch modulation when rotary speed is "fast".

I recognized the "Lo Size" and "Hi Size" parameters affect doppler effect pitch modulation, but regardless what I did, it was very hard to find the settings eliminating pitchyness.

It works to some degree, but not perfect,- unfortunately.

I´ve found setings here it was acceptable for "fast" speed, but then, these setting made "slow" rotary effect almost inaudible.

I invested a lot of time editing a single and a double leslie being halfway useful for me,- but some of the software solutions do it much better,- IK B3X or VB3-2 p. ex..

And yes,- compared to the software clones, Kurz´ C/V is also too warbly.

 

I think, the rotary speaker edit page w/ it´s 48 user parameters is too complicated .

No average user understands the interaction of these in depth.

 

Instead of coming w/ 1 dedicated leslie for each organ program, there should be one perfect single- and one perfect double leslie usable for every organ program and it would be good if there were the possibiluty using it global just to route a KB3 organ and a VAST organ (for lower manual) thru the same leslie.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

i was talking about the K2700 leslie. i agree with you that the PC3's leslie there is a pitchiness that cant be gotten rid of.  On the K2700 it sounds like they fixed it.  There is still issues because if you listen to the K2700 that Steve recorded it has a conflict with the C/V which is warbly.  on the deceleration to slow you can clearly hear that on the K2700 the issue is the C/V and not the leslie itself.  

If you take a double leslie (on the PC3) and use it as an Aux effect then you can apply it to a Setup that has a KB3 upper organ and a VAST lower organ and the leslie will work on both manuals.  i have one working that way.

[Al Coda]

4 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

i was talking about the K2700 leslie. i agree with you that the PC3's leslie there is a pitchiness that cant be gotten rid of. 

 

Dave, I doubt there are different Leslies in the K2700 and PC3 because "a Leslie" in VAST is a combination of different VAST FX.

I guess, there are only 2 ways improving it,- optimize for doubler effect responsible algorithm,- which only DSP coders can do,- or find better settings for the given algorithms.

 

4 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

On the K2700 it sounds like they fixed it.

 

It would be nice to read HOW they fixed WHAT.

And it would also be nice to know what we really hear.

I have the impression, the "Leslies" we hear in these demo vids are the so called "double-leslies" and not a single leslie.

 

So, I´d like to listen to a fast speed single leslie from PC3 and K2700 in a comparison,- no C/V, different single drawbars, some typical drawbar combos,- al in different keyboard ranges.

 

When looking in both the User guides, PC3 and K2700,- the parameters for rotary speaker effect are 100% identical.

So, when Kurz "improved" something, it might be transferable over to the PC3 rotary speaker effect,- perhaps ...

 

☺️

 

A.C.

 

4 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

 

 

[Dave Bryce]

Can I ask a dopey question?

 

We have an interactive review on this very subject going in Gearlab.  This topic was apparently started based on that review.  Is there some reason you guys don’t want to talk about it in the Gearlab thread?

 

Seriously…MPN is paying brother Steve to do the Gearlab review. The idea behind those is precisely to encourage discussion like this…but ideally in the topic itself, not in a different forum.  

 

Are they a bad idea?  Should we not bother with them?

 

dB

[TomKittel]

This example sounds no different to me than the PC3 or Forte. I had spent endless time with the PC3 or Forte trying to program better sounding B3/Leslie patches. Pure waste of time. Any mediocre clonewheel will sound a thousand times more accurate. 

[Delaware Dave]

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

Can I ask a dopey question?

 

We have an interactive review on this very subject going in Gearlab.  This topic was apparently started based on that review.  Is there some reason you guys don’t want to talk about it in the Gearlab thread?

 

Seriously…MPN is paying brother Steve to do the Gearlab review. The idea behind those is precisely to encourage discussion like this…but ideally in the topic itself, not in a different forum.  

 

Are they a bad idea?  Should we not bother with them?

 

dB

Agree 100%...  Any way of porting the contents of this thread into the Fortner thread and then shutting this one down?

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

Can I ask a dopey question?

 

We have an interactive review on this very subject going in Gearlab.  This topic was apparently started based on that review.  Is there some reason you guys don’t want to talk about it in the Gearlab thread?

 

Seriously…MPN is paying brother Steve to do the Gearlab review. The idea behind those is precisely to encourage discussion like this…but ideally in the topic itself, not in a different forum.  

 

Are they a bad idea?  Should we not bother with them?

 

dB

 

FWIW... my bookmark takes me right to Keyboard Corner. I never see the gearlab page. I have made my way over if there's a post about it here, but it's not checked regularly, and if there's subsequent conversation sparked there, I'll probably never see it. I wonder if maybe there's a way to configure Gearlab topics such that they automatically always show up in the Gearlab section as they do now, but ALSO as topics in the KC forum (like one would be an "alias" to the other), so people could see and access them either way?

 

ETA: I think you bring up a good question worth talking about, but it might get buried in this thread (or risk derailing it), maybe move this to the "we're back" topic or somewhere else you think may be appropriate?

[drawback]

Good point, AnotherScott.
 

I also wonder where the line can be drawn anyway, given the tendency of a great many topics to branch off into major, somewhat related technical tangents such as we’re seeing now concerning trigger points in the Yamaha thread. Does that relate better to GearLab? How is one to know or to signal that?

[Doerfler]

maybe everyone  could use this url as their bookmark, new worlds await... 

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/

[Al Coda]

7 hours ago, TomKittel said:

This example sounds no different to me than the PC3 or Forte. I had spent endless time with the PC3 or Forte trying to program better sounding B3/Leslie patches. Pure waste of time. Any mediocre clonewheel will sound a thousand times more accurate. 

 

Thx for confirmation !

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[nursers]

7 hours ago, Doerfler said:

maybe everyone  could use this url as their bookmark, new worlds await... 

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/

This exactly - it's not hard to change a bookmark

[AnotherScott]

52 minutes ago, Dr Nursers said:

This exactly - it's not hard to change a bookmark

 

But then it's 2 clicks to get to where you want instead of 1, for the 99%+ of the time that KC is where you want to be. I guess it couldn't hurt if TPTB wanted to post something at the top of the KC page asking people to do it, and see if that actually changes traffic patterns... but I still like my idea better. ;-)

[Delaware Dave]

20 hours ago, drawback said:

Good point, AnotherScott.
 

I also wonder where the line can be drawn anyway, given the tendency of a great many topics to branch off .........

Like this topic and how the Kurz K2700 leslie sim turned into a a bookmarking topic???  Then we wonder why we read something but cant find the topic where it was posted.

[Dave Bryce]

23 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I wonder if maybe there's a way to configure Gearlab topics such that they automatically always show up in the Gearlab section as they do now, but ALSO as topics in the KC forum (like one would be an "alias" to the other), so people could see and access them either way?

 

I believe there is a way to achieve that goal.  

 

The system is configured so that I can feature things like what’s going in in other select forums for everyone to see - pretty much as aliases - but those would show up as a separate box off to the side of the posts.  Not sure how configurable that is.

 

A version of those were in place when we first moved, but folks complained about all the space the required extra margin left on either side of the posts so I turned them off.

 

If providing an indicator/promoting traffic between the various fora is desired, turning them back on may be a good way to go.

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

Okay, I found one thing I like.

 

I enabled there different ways to view the forums. Go to the main page (forums.musicplayer.com) and check out the tso boxes next to the START NEW TOPIC button under the Kraft banner.  Let’s you toggle between standard TABLE view of the forums, and one called FLUID - which is kind of cool - that lets you see the forum you like along with a menu for all the others.  

 

Right now I have it set so members can choose, but I can make that the default.  I believe doing that would kill the bookmark jump straight to any one forum, though.

 

dB

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Dave Bryce said:

The system is configured so that I can feature things like what’s going in in other select forums for everyone to see - pretty much as aliases - but those would show up as a separate box off to the side of the posts.  Not sure how configurable that is.

 

A version of those were in place when we first moved, but folks complained about all the space

 

It looks good to me, and actually adds a benefit (space-wise) that, when you first load the KC page, you see more of its posts right away (because the top section is no longer occupied by Garage Sale and Shameless Plugs, yet those sections are still clearly accessible. Less scrolling when checking for new posts. Heck, if you could add one for the Stickies, that would be great. You'd want to have it default to On, so that every new user indeed sees them at the top (which is why they are stickies in the first place), but it would be great for people who have been here for a while to be able to filter them out of the main posts page, again, to reduce scrolling and present a greater amount of relevant content at first scrren-load. (ETA: While writing this and checking behaviors, I noticed that suddenly all the stickies seem to have disappeared entirely...)

 

Cool tip, if people haven't noticed... while clicking on one of those  right-column subjects--or in its box--adds its topics into the currently viewable topic list, you can also right-click and open the link in a new tab or new window, if you want to see ONLY those posts, i.e. for it to work the way it did when they were at the top of the KC page. Personally, I'd rather that the check box did just what it does now, but I think clicking on the actual subject name should actually function as a link to just that section's posts (just as clicking on those subjects used to do when they were at the top of the main KC page), rather than doing  exactly the same thing as clicking in the box (and requiring the right-click to view that section exclusively). I don't know whether that behavior is something you can control, or if everyone would agree that that would be more desirable, but I figured I'd mention it...

[Dave Bryce]

Re: stickies - in FLUID mode they all get preference if I turn that on.  They’re all at the top.

 

I had enabled three modes at first, but I switched it to only two.  The one I disabled is a GRID mode that’s kind of dopey.

 

dB

 

 

[AnotherScott]

What happened? It looks like the sidebar is gone again...?

[Dave Bryce]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

What happened? It looks like the sidebar is gone again...?

 

If you mean the one from Fluid mode, I still see it.

 

dB

[AnotherScott]

No, just the regular KC page, whether in the default, MPN, or blue themes, they all look the same to me as they did before the change where you added the sidebar. IOW, Garage Sale and Shameless Plugs are back at the top, and there's no sidebar for other sections. And the little two boxes next to Start New Topic are gone. I had been playing with those to see what they did, and then suddenly... poof.

[Al Coda]

6 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

No, just the regular KC page, ... look the same to me as they did before the change where you added the sidebar. .. Garage Sale and Shameless Plugs are back at the top, and there's no sidebar for other sections.

 

confirmed

 

A.C.

[Dave Bryce]

Weird…I’ll try and figure out what I changed.  I can still see them.  

 

I have to ask - you guys are clear that this menu is only available on the main forum page, right?  It’s not available if you’re browsing KC.  Another dopey question - is it obvious that clicking the MPN logo in the upper left hand corner will take you to the main forum page?

 

Hey, look at the bottom of the KC Topics menu now.  Can you see the block I installed?

 

dB

[AnotherScott]

49 minutes ago, Dave Bryce said:

I have to ask - you guys are clear that this menu is only available on the main forum page, right?  It’s not available if you’re browsing KC.

 

Here's what I'm now seeing, where I had been seeing that sidebar of sections. The boxes to the left of "Start New Topic" have come back, but the sidebar is still missing, while Garage Sale and Shameless Plugs have returned to the top, as I said.

 

 

1 hour ago, Dave Bryce said:

Another dopey question - is it obvious that clicking the MPN logo in the upper left hand corner will take you to the main forum page?

 

That's supposed to be obvious? LOL. But I'm terrible at that kind of thing, so I guess you shouldn't go by me. But no, I'd never have guessed that's a link and not merely a logo. 

 

1 hour ago, Dave Bryce said:

Hey, look at the bottom of the KC Topics menu now.  Can you see the block I installed?

 

Just checked... yes, I can see it.

 

[Dave Bryce]

31 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Here's what I'm now seeing, where I had been seeing that sidebar of sections. The boxes to the left of "Start New Topic" have come back, but the sidebar is still missing, while Garage Sale and Shameless Plugs have returned to the top, as I said.

 

 

 

 

You're not in FLUID mode.  You're set to TABLE mode, the usual default.  See how the first of the two icons is lit up (blue) next to START NEW TOPIC?

If you change that back to FLUID (the second button - currently white on your linked graphic - directly adjacent to the START NEW TOPIC button), the sidebar should come back and the subfora should vanish.

 

dB