Back on the topic of digital piano amplification in stereo

[PianoMan51]

On 1/12/2023 at 5:29 AM, stoken6 said:

I've done this at jam sessions where my wedge has to serve as FoH and monitor. I've angled it over my left ear - if North is "straight at the audience", I've rotated it about 20 degrees east to give me a hint of my sound. It worked OK. (I much prefer a proper monitor mix into my wedge, or in-ears).

 

Cheers, Mike.

Yes Al, it works. In my case it’s just a single speaker but the idea is the same. You raise the speaker behind you and above your head, then adjust the distance between the speaker and the keyboard to ‘scoot’ under the main speaker volume. Been doing this for 15 years. It looks unconventional, but I don’t care! BTW, I’m often singing with this configuration too, without a FOH PA and without feedback issues.

 

I do have a secret weapon: Yorkville SKS-ADAPT15. This is a $9 adapter (FullCompass) that fits between the top of the speaker stand and the hole in the bottom of the speaker. It tilts the speaker down by 15 degrees. This allows me to raise the speaker to the maximum height. Way above my head, slightly above my bandmates heads, and pointed directly at the audience. Better volume balance for everyone. And because the speaker is facing slightly downward this cuts down reflections from the ceiling and back wall and in most cases makes keys in the FOH unnecessary. I seem to remember some QSC speakers having built in tilt features.

 

 

[Al Quinn]

Thanks for the tip PianoMan51. That's a cool secret weapon! 

[cassdad]

2 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

Yes Al, it works. In my case it’s just a single speaker but the idea is the same. You raise the speaker behind you and above your head, then adjust the distance between the speaker and the keyboard to ‘scoot’ under the main speaker volume. Been doing this for 15 years. It looks unconventional, but I don’t care! BTW, I’m often singing with this configuration too, without a FOH PA and without feedback issues.

 

I do have a secret weapon: Yorkville SKS-ADAPT15. This is a $9 adapter (FullCompass) that fits between the top of the speaker stand and the hole in the bottom of the speaker. It tilts the speaker down by 15 degrees. This allows me to raise the speaker to the maximum height. Way above my head, slightly above my bandmates heads, and pointed directly at the audience. Better volume balance for everyone. And because the speaker is facing slightly downward this cuts down reflections from the ceiling and back wall and in most cases makes keys in the FOH unnecessary. I seem to remember some QSC speakers having built in tilt features.

 

 

Just FYI, the Yamaha DRX-10 powered speakers also have this feature built in…. the bottom of the speaker has dual pole mount holes…. 1 that keeps the speaker flat, the other insert that tilts the speaker 7 degrees.

[Reezekeys]

My 14-year-old QSC K8s have a feature they call "tilt direct", you rotate a sleeve in the pole mount receptacle at the bottom of the speaker which tilts the speaker down down 7 degrees. The K.2s have dual pole mounts.

[cphollis]

On 1/11/2023 at 7:56 PM, b3plyr said:

Maybe the original QSC Ks but not so much the .2 series. The bottom end on the K8.2s is also pretty impressive.

I did some side-by-side testing of full-range keys (AP-centric player) K8.2 vs RCF TT08a (original model) several years ago.  The K8.2s were notable in that they could keep up with RCFs 98% of the time for about half the cost.   I really liked both pairs, so I kept them both.  The K8.2s always surprise people.

[bill bosco]

34 minutes ago, cphollis said:

I did some side-by-side testing of full-range keys (AP-centric player) K8.2 vs RCF TT08a (original model) several years ago.  The K8.2s were notable in that they could keep up with RCFs 98% of the time for about half the cost.   I really liked both pairs, so I kept them both.  The K8.2s always surprise people.

how are they set up , did you adjust any EQ on the K8.2s ?

[cphollis]

47 minutes ago, bill bosco said:

how are they set up , did you adjust any EQ on the K8.2s ?

Live band gigs, set behind me over shoulders using the Yorkville short poles, flat EQ for both.  APs were exceptional for both, with the RCFs being just a bit more exceptional.  Everything else sounded brilliant.  At the time, I was providing "stage volume" (keys not in the PA!) so I had to be CLEAN and LOUD without damaging my hearing.  A bit of ear protection, and I was good!  But I'm never going back to doing that again ....

 

EDIT: the differences are less pronounced in a quiet setting, but in the fog of war, the RCFs stood out better from the sonic chaos.

[b3plyr]

Also note that the .2s are rugged. I had a speaker stand with a k10.2 fall over, off a stage. No damage and I’ve been using the speaker for several years since the “fall”.

[cphollis]

@anotherscott, I just noticed the MarkBass thread you resurfaced (https://www.markbass.it/product/ergo-system-1s-121/) and I have to say I am super intrigued, but not necessarily from a keyboard player's perspective.

 

There's a lot of territory to cover between "singer/songwriter background at a bar in mono" and "five piece acoustic band in concert with stereo" that you could cover with these smart-looking modules.  They don't seem to be available in the US quite yet, but the EU pricing seems reasonable for what you get.  If you wanted to play single pole mono, (e.g. small acoustic) the top modules splay nicely as a tower would.  If you want a directional and stereo sound with more modules, it looks like it could get pretty loud before you'd want a more traditional top/sub design.

 

When my Bose pole dies, I would definitely look to this as a replacement.  And the MarkBass stuff always sounds great.  I hope these come to the US.

[ElmerJFudd]

this looks very interesting. 

[Theo Verelst]

I know for a fact that in order to treat this subject with some scientific appeal it's needed to keep a number of main issues in mind. First, a digital piano will in by far the most cases sound "digital" and even if the playing capacity of the machine is decent because it uses advanced DSP tricks (actually advanced), Spectral Component Modeling, or physical modeling, that "digital" "character" is going to have a major impact on the sound system perception.

 

So taking a stereo microphone setup on an ok acoustic piano, and amplifying the signal with an analog mixer and power amp to big, accurate enough speakers is going to always sound different than some plastic on poles with a switched amp and a rompler chucking away some piano lines/chords.

 

Of course digital means you'll have eq, dynamic control and effects to play with, and maybe you can get some sort of produced sound from a light keyboard and small PA system which is actually enjoyable. Which is then good for you, an intersting linage, but as things are, the search for a good stereo piano sound will fail in predictable ways.

 

Even a digital well recorded stereo mic-ed piano on a good PA system is going to sound "digital", by lack of proper signal reconstruction in the DAC, and because stereo requires even more accuracy in that department, and in general studio signal creation that does no grow on the current trees of digital instruments or their signal processing, unless you look very specific and do a lot of work.

 

To have the already difficult stereo signal of a piano reach the listener via two speakers you  need to create signal components which "flow" around the heads of the listeners in ways such that (outside of the sweet spot) the difference in distance between left and right speaker to the ears of the listener doesn't cause complete left or right soud experience. There are a few tricks to wor on this, but only the more complicated signal processing can actually perform ok in that sense.

 

Then the general sound of a (digital) piano is an Equal Loudnes Curve + acoustics challenge of the first kind, as well as keeping the screeching mid frequency components out of the true power potential of modern amplification (especially with small speakers).

 

Now, I can create and successfully play at 90dB or so with my big speaker system and specially prepared digital piano, but that has taken me a long time, and cannot just be reproduced except by using the same instrument and program, which wasn't created by me.

 

THeo V

 

[ElmerJFudd]

55 minutes ago, Theo Verelst said:

I know for a fact that in order to treat this subject with some scientific appeal it's needed to keep a number of main issues in mind. First, a digital piano will in by far the most cases sound "digital" and even if the playing capacity of the machine is decent because it uses advanced DSP tricks (actually advanced), Spectral Component Modeling, or physical modeling, that "digital" "character" is going to have a major impact on the sound system perception.

 

So taking a stereo microphone setup on an ok acoustic piano, and amplifying the signal with an analog mixer and power amp to big, accurate enough speakers is going to always sound different than some plastic on poles with a switched amp and a rompler chucking away some piano lines/chords.

 

Of course digital means you'll have eq, dynamic control and effects to play with, and maybe you can get some sort of produced sound from a light keyboard and small PA system which is actually enjoyable. Which is then good for you, an intersting linage, but as things are, the search for a good stereo piano sound will fail in predictable ways.

 

Even a digital well recorded stereo mic-ed piano on a good PA system is going to sound "digital", by lack of proper signal reconstruction in the DAC, and because stereo requires even more accuracy in that department, and in general studio signal creation that does no grow on the current trees of digital instruments or their signal processing, unless you look very specific and do a lot of work.

 

To have the already difficult stereo signal of a piano reach the listener via two speakers you  need to create signal components which "flow" around the heads of the listeners in ways such that (outside of the sweet spot) the difference in distance between left and right speaker to the ears of the listener doesn't cause complete left or right soud experience. There are a few tricks to wor on this, but only the more complicated signal processing can actually perform ok in that sense.

 

Then the general sound of a (digital) piano is an Equal Loudnes Curve + acoustics challenge of the first kind, as well as keeping the screeching mid frequency components out of the true power potential of modern amplification (especially with small speakers).

 

Now, I can create and successfully play at 90dB or so with my big speaker system and specially prepared digital piano, but that has taken me a long time, and cannot just be reproduced except by using the same instrument and program, which wasn't created by me.

 

THeo V

 

Yes, Theo.  Your desire for real world accuracy in a digital piano from a technical standpoint goes beyond KC’s pickiest promoters of acoustic pianos.    

 

Portability definitely forces compromise, as does affordability.  If someone hasn’t already developed and is selling a solution at a reasonable price - one has to be willing to take time away from practice, gigs, work, family and social media to build it oneself.  😂

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Yes, Theo.  Your desire for real world accuracy in a digital piano from a technical standpoint goes beyond KC’s pickiest promoters of acoustic pianos.

Very true. Hey, everyone needs a hobby...

Cheers, Mike.