Another Rig Advice Thread

[nadroj]

This is my rig thread. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

 

I've outgrown my current gear. It either sits unused in my house, or has become redundant live. I'm in the process of selling my current 3 boards, and the possibility of having a new rig in the near future is now very real. I know we've had a lot of threads about this, but another one won't hurt.

 

My Electro is my favourite board ever, but it doesn't do enough. My MODX does almost everything, but I don't enjoy playing it. My main focus is to condense everything as much as I can into one semi-weighted keyboard. Down the line I may get a weighted controller and build a shell for it, but for now I want one keyboard that can cover all of my bases reasonably well, and that is fun for me to play live and at home.

 

This is going to be my big purchase of the decade, and whatever I get is to last me for the forseeable future. It's very important to me that I get something I enjoy playing, so I don't mind taking a while to make the decision.

 

REQUIRED:

 

1) A good organ. My main and busiest band now sees me playing 70% Hammond/Vox in our set. I've fallen in and out of love with the Nord hammond over the years, but I'm generally happy with it. As much as I'd love to be an organist, the reality is that I'm not. I might get a mid-life crisis dual manual clonewheel once I hit 40, but we're not quite there yet.

 

2) Multi-timbral. Most keyboards have this today, but there have been several rehearsals and sessions I've played in where the limits of my Electro 4 have fallen short of what I've needed. Doesn't need to be workstation like, but just enough to get me by.

 

3) Usable - Good APs/EPs. The Nord pianos remain my favourite hardware pianos, especailly the uprights. I only use 1 or 2 live, though. Any bright sounding piano would do live, but for home use I'd prefer a sound that inspires me. I sometimes get calls from singer/songwriters, and a good piano sound that doesn't embarass me and sounds good is important for those gigs.

 

4) Sturdy, compact, reliable. This will be my main workhorse. It needs to be able to survive gig after gig, it needs to fit in the back of my car and it needs to feel good. As I've said in previous threads, feeling is important to me. I want to feel like I'm playing an instrument. MODX-7 ticked almost all of my boxes, but I didn't like the keybed, and it didn't feel good to hammer away at live.

 

BONUSES:

 

4) Pitch bend/modulation options. I don't do it live much, but I love playing lead synth parts at home. Riffing over a lead synth is certainly an area of my playing I wish to grow in.

 

5) Sample playback. Not necessary, but I'd miss it if I didn't have it. There have been serveral times when I've received a callback for a gig over other players simply because I went to the effort of sampling something from a record and played it live.

 

6) Some sound design options. I like doing my homework, I like tweaking, and I like the challenge of of trying to get as close as possible to a sound as possible. I'm not meticuolous about hitting every part, but I like the challenge of trying to get as much out of a board's capabilities as possible. Also, if I can't be bothered playing at home I sometimes like just sitting down to explore and create stuff.

 

OPTIONS:

 

Shortlist of thoughts, in no particular order:

 

1) Nord Stage 3 Compact

 

PROS: This ticks every box. Everything I need in one, single keyboard. Tried and tested. Supported by my laptop there would be few gigs I wouldn't be able to cover.

 

CONS: Expensive. This is stretching my budget, and there would be no cash left over for any effects pedals or extra accessories. It's also so standard and predictable that it almost feels like the "boring" option...

 

2) Hammond SK-PRO

PROS: Ticks most of the boxes. Probably the best sounding organ out of the lot. It's new, it's cool, it's sturdy. Plenty of extra voices, and it has the flexibilty to split and layer up to 11 sounds at once, which the Nords don't.

 

CONS: Mixed reviews about the extra voices and mono-synth. Not sure how the pianos would stack up in more intimate settings. Would need to try one out before buying, and the only shops that actually stock them are on the other side of the country. No aftertouch. Expensive. No custom sample playback.

 

3) Kurzweil PC-4 + Vent or MOJO Desktop. Previously known as the wild card option.

 

PROS: Good bread and butter sounds, access to Dave Weiser and BurningBusch's excellent programmes. Purgatory Creek sounds are VST quality. Lots of sample memory. Most sonically and programmably flexible keyboard out of them all. VAST synthesis will keep me busy for the rest of my life, and some of the downloable sounds available for purchase are extraordinary. Cheap, with lots of money left over for extra goodies.

 

CONS: Plastic. This took away from the playability of the MODX. I wanted to love it, but it just didn't feel as sturdy as some of the metal keyboards I've owned. Wall wart - nothing worse than getting to a gig and realising that your external adapter has either been left at home or the tiny cable has got damaged and is unusable. Organ is the weakest of the lot, would need a vent or external module to bring it up to speed. Sonically I can see it working fine, but I'd need to test it to make sure I actually enjoyed playing it. Deep doesn't always mean fun. The Yamaha MODX has some wonderful sound design options, but I've rarely got it set up at home because I don't enjoy playing it

 

4) Yamaha YC 73/61

 

PROS: Feels great, looks cool. One cable attached to my laptop would make suddenly make it about as sonically capable as anything else on this list. Yamaha stuff is built to last. Good pianos, extra voices. The coloured drawfaders look cool. Cheaper option on the list.

 

CONS: Limited editability of on board sounds. Organ simulation is questionable (sounds cool, but nowhere close to the real thing, and the rotary speaker still hasn't been fixed.) No sound design unless I have a laptop attached. No custom sample playback.

 

5) Nord Electro 6 73 + Korg Minilogue XD Module (current wildcard option)

 

PROS: Ticks all of the boxes. Very similar to my current Nord model, but with the added flexibility that I'm currently missing. The Nord alone would cover all of the needs for my main band. The XD would sit neatly on top of the Nord for other gigs or home use. It's one of the few modules currently available with a pitch bend/mod joystick attached. It would give me my first analogue synth. Sound design capabilities would be fun. I could potentially run the output of the XD into the Nord and only need one or two cables for FOH. Even with both of these two there'd still be some money left over to put towards accessories or goodies. It's currently the most exciting and fun-sounding solution, but that's only because I've just thought of it.

 

CONS: This is starting to move away from the one board solution. One instrument wouldn't do everything, and I might grow tired with the faff again and wish I'd just gotten a Stage. If running the XD into the Nord doesn't work out, that's 2 or potentially 4 outputs I have to give to the soundman at a gig, unless I bring a mixer which is yet more faff. ROMpler capabilities aren't great, but the gigs where I need lots of ROMpler sounds are rare. No aftertouch. Limited splitting and layering options, but being able to dedicate a section of the keyboard to custom layered samples helps mitigate that. Nord Electro 6 sucks as a MIDI controller.

 

What do you think, KC?

[ElmerJFudd]

'My main focus is to condense everything into one semi-weighted keyboard.'

 

This is really the crux of it in one sentence. Yes a LOT of people, including me, dream of this single lightweight board that is a pleasure to play in all situations. It doesn"t exist. But the ones you mentioned, you"re on the right track from current offerings.

 

Also add

Korg Vox Continental 73

Roland VR-730

Dexibell J7 Combo

 

Worth a look and more affordable than a few on the list.

 

Since they all have Pros and Cons. I"d say look for one with a semi weight action that works well for both organ and pianos. It should also have good midi controller implementation and features so you can supplement with an iPad, iPhone or laptop running a VST/AU host.

[Delaware Dave]

If you feel that the Stage 3 is the right keyboard then buy the board. An extra $1000-1500 over the course of time will long be forgotten in two years. You could buy the additional accessories over time as budget permits then. Life's short, get what you want and be happy.

[nadroj]

 

 

Dexibell J7 Combo

 

 

 

Never heard of this one before. If I'm reading it right, it has a good organ, along with bread and butter sounds, 4 sounds layered at once AND audio over USB? That's going on the list, if so. No pitch/modwheel, but it's cheap enough that I could still get the Minilogue too.

[Floyd Tatum]

This is my rig thread. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Bit of a coincidence here - I just re-watched Jarhead the other day. Pretty decent movie. Ok, now back to your regularly scheduled thread. Pologies for the detour.

 

EDIT: (I know this the Marine Rifleman's Creed, but I learned about it from watching Jarhead)

[cphollis]

FWIW, I just went through the process of evaluating my main board options. Although I love my NS3C, I was curious to see if there was anything better out there. Short answer? No, not for me. So now I own two NS3Cs, with one as a backup.

 

Yes, the NS3C is the boring / safe / predictable answer for many people, and with good reason. It's not the best at any one thing, other than getting you through a gig with a minimum of fuss and a maximum of fun.

 

The best deal was "b-stock" which saved many hundreds of dollars. Like all b-stock keyboards I've bought in the past, it arrived in like-new condition. After getting my first NS3C, I lost all interest in external pedals. It's addictively easy to simply step through each song part and have the internal effects come along for the ride. The Vent II stays home, as does the Strymon etc.

 

My current rig is the NS3C above, a NP4 used as a weighted midi controller, a few foot controllers -- and that's it. No external effects, mixing, etc.

 

Best of luck!

[AnotherScott]

MODX-7 ticked almost all of my boxes, but I didn't like the keybed

For something like a MODX7 but with a better keybed, you could look at Kurzweil PC4-7 or Roland Fantom 7. Bonus... they both have better organ than MODX and also both have the aftertouch that MODX lacks (and routable outputs if you decide you want to add a Vent or whatever). Kurzweil's big advantages over the Roland are price and travel weight. Roland wins on interface/programming and not having your plastic build/wall wart drawbacks. (There's also the Nautilus option here, I suppose, but in light of your interest in 9-drawbar organ control and aftertouch, I suspect it would lag the Kurz and Roland choices for you... though it is cheaper than the Roland and still gets you away from the pastic chassis/wall wart issue.)

 

1) Nord Stage 3 Compact...Supported by my laptop there would be few gigs I wouldn't be able to cover.

Well, supported by a laptop, there are few gigs ANY of these boards couldn't cover.

 

2) Hammond SK-PRO...Mixed reviews about the...mono-synth. ... No custom sample playback.

Hmm. Other than (obviously) not being polyphonic, I actually haven't seen any knocks on the mono synth. (And it certainly beats the YC there!) As for custom sample playback, since it incorporates 4-zone MIDI control, you could grab that kind of thing from something like an iPhone/iPad if needed. (Same for the Yamaha YC.)

 

3) Kurzweil PC-4...Organ is the weakest of the lot, would need a vent or external module to bring it up to speed...Deep doesn't always mean fun.

I'm not sure about the organ ranking... I think the YC Leslie effect is likewise substandard, and due to the lack of assignable outs (or even sound panning), doesn't even give you a practical way to address it with a Vent as you could on the Kurz. (Using it instead to drive VB3m from your smartphone might be the way to go there... which actually you could also do on the Kurz.) As for the programming, that's a whole other can of worms. Simple performance stuff (splits/layers, controller assignments, etc.) are fine on the Kurz, but I haven't even begun to tackle actual sound editing, which looks to me to be deep but not fun. Personally, ease of sound editing could be my biggest issue with this. (Of course, as you point out, on the other end, the YC eliminates the problem by basically not offering you any editing in the first place. ;-) So this can be a big issue or a non-issue.)

 

4) Yamaha YC 73/61

remember, 73 is not semi-weighted.

[Delaware Dave]

Dexibell J7 Combo .... If I'm reading it right, it has a good organ

 

I've auditioned this keyboard multiple times, including the upgraded leslie. I would not agree.

[Delaware Dave]

I've fallen in and out of love with the Nord hammond over the years, but I'm generally happy with it

The NS3C has the same C2D organ; there may have been small tweaks along the way but 95% of it is the same as the E4.

[rickzjamm]

Noticed the Korg Kronos 73 wasn't mentioned., that's my gigging board & it does pretty much whatever is needed for just about any gig. APs aren't great but no board's perfect.

[AnotherScott]

Dexibell J7 Combo .... If I'm reading it right, it has a good organ

 

I've auditioned this keyboard multiple times, including the upgraded leslie. I would not agree.

I'd put the Dexibell's leslie effect above the ones in the YC or Kurz... but Dexibell, like the YC, doesn't provide a great way to try to fix it with a Vent if it's still not sufficiently satisfying, leaving you again with the possibility of supplementing with VB3m or B3x... though at least with the latter, I was still able to take advantage of the moving drawbar feature which is pretty cool.

[Outkaster]

Nothing wrong with the YC or SK Pro

[stoken6]

Hi Jordan,

 

1) Nord Stage 3 Compact: I wouldn't be worried that it's boring/predictable. If budget is a problem, could you stretch to a s/h NS2/2EX? It has a lesser synth compared to the 3, but much of the rest is comparable. It's built to last, and if you don't like it, you can sell it for what you paid. (Mine is going strong 9 years after I bought it). A Classic or EX would provide a greater saving at the expense of sample playback (so only piano/organ/synth - no ROMpler).

2) Hammond SK-PRO: Nice board for an organ-rich gig. I find the AP a fraction disappointing.

3) Kurzweil PC-4 + Vent or MOJO Desktop: The PC4, like the Nord Stage and SK-PRO, is one of those boards that can grow/evolve into any rig. With strong MIDI slave/master capabilities, good controller features (aftertouch, pedals, wheels, zoning...), audio in and so on, there's a lot to like. I'm happy with the Kurz organs, but I'm not an aficionado.

4) Yamaha YC 73/61: Is the 61 big enough? (The 73 is hammer-action). With pannable outputs this would have been a great choice. Otherwise you're stuck with the onboard rotary sim - which may or may not be good enough.

5) Nord Electro 6 73 + Korg Minilogue XD Module: Also a nice choice, if the Electro gives you enough multitimbrality. I was thinking a Roland Boutique module as an alternative companion - pitch/mod on ribbons.

 

I would add the Vox Konti and Roland VR730 (not VR09 - EPs lacking) to your list. Both have external power supplies and no aftertouch.

 

It's a shame you didn't like the MODX keybed - a MODX7 + organ app on iPad is the same rig as a KCer here (Stokely?), and seems to work really well. A Crumar Desktop module would be an alternative to the app - but it relies on you liking the keybed!

 

Cheers, Mike.

[confidence]

LOL, you know you're going to buy the Stage 3 you're just looking for permission.

 

You came to the right place. We give you permission.

[ElmerJFudd]

On the other hand the Stage 3 Compact action is not a compromise semi weight action that feels good for pianos. It"s just another model using the Fatar TP-8O, and tightly sprung at that. Same action you get on a Nord Electro.

[cphollis]

I can confirm that the NS3C action sucks if you're expecting a somewhat weighted piano feel. I use a weighted controller for those bits.

[MAJUSCULE]

LOL, you know you're going to buy the Stage 3 you're just looking for permission.

 

You came to the right place. We give you permission.

 

Lol! Yep, absolutely. Went through the same process just pre-pandemic (there's a thread where I went full Charlie Kelly on it), and ended up with the NS3. Still some corners cut on that board, for sure, but it serves the same role as my old Electro while doing about 400% more work. Made sure to get the hardcase at the same time, but only now getting around to the other accessory stuff I was planning on including in the rig refresh.

[ElmerJFudd]

I can confirm that the NS3C action sucks if you're expecting a somewhat weighted piano feel. I use a weighted controller for those bits.

 

I like this solution. There are affordable, fairly light weight, weighted actions that are significantly more pleasant to play piano on. Like the the Kawai ES-110, PX-5S, P-125, FP-30X. Others that are lighter schlep tend to use the Fatar TP-100 which is meh for me. ymmv

[AnotherScott]

I'm going to come at this from another direction, nadroj. Based on your post, I think I would focus most on feel and operational ergonomics, especially considering you're also talking about sometimes using a computer, and also in light of the ease of using an iOS device to possibly fill some gaps or strengthen some weaknesses even when you don't want to bother with the computer. Basically, I'm thinking maybe you should focus on the things you can't change as the things you need to be their best, and that would be the feel and ergonomics/interface. Personally, that would prompt me to take a good look at the Fantom 7. Subjective as it may be, I think most of the sounds will usually be good enough for whatever you need, but they can easily be improved via computer/iOS if and when you need those improvements, whereas there is no way to make a board better in its feel or basic operation.

 

I'd have been tempted to go this way myself except it's too heavy for me, but you did not mention light weight as one of your criteria. (The nearest lightweight equivalent might be the PC4-7.) Honorable mention to the Nord Stage 3 here, for a really nice layout for real-time sound manipulation that can be auto-mapped to Omnisphere for the synth section, while using drawbars for either its own organ sound or an external one. I haven't tried this approach myself, but I'm intrigued by the possibility of using the nice NS3 control surface for your favorite VSTs. The front panel patch selection mechanism is still weak, though (maybe use an iPad for that?) and you have to be okay with its action. And yes, NS3 is the priciest option (albeit only slightly beating the Fantom)... and it becomes even more so if your intent is also to budget for VSTs to use with it.

[nadroj]

Thanks for the responses. Nord Stage 3 makes the most sense given my needs, but there's a part of me that really wants to go for something else lol.

 

There was once upon a time when the Kronos 73 was my dream board, but its big, bulky, and while I do like the action for piano, it wouldn't suit most of the playing I do in my main band. The LS is too big. I vowed years ago never to gig an 88 again.

 

I'm aware the YC-73 is weighted. If it's the same "balanced" weighted action I've played on other Yamaha keyboards I wouldn't mind it as an allrounder.

 

I've tried the Fantom. It sounds fantastic, is built like a brick, and while the 7 keybed is indeed a very nice synth one, again, it's not the kind of action I'm looking for for my workhorse/allrounder.

I'm well used to the TP80 for piano playing, so don't mind that.

 

The truth is that the more I look at the Minilogue XD the more I want it. 4 voices, but it sounds and looks like I'd enjoy it much more than the Stage 3 synth section. Ideally this new rig will have be both practical for gigging and inspiring to play at home. If I could fit the module onto a keyboard and only bring a couple of extra cables, I wouldn't mind if the other board lacked the synth capabilities. If Yamaha could just sort out the organ on the YC, that and the Korg would make a nice combo for me.

 

It's just a pity that the Nord Electro 6 sucks as a MIDI controller. Am I right in saying it only has 1 split point for 3 sounds, and that the external part can only be played on one of the splits?

[Delaware Dave]

Thanks for the responses. Nord Stage 3 makes the most sense given my needs, but there's a part of me that really wants to go for something else lol.

 

PC4-7 with a Vent for the leslie sim. Great keybed for playability. All bases covered. Affordable.

[AnotherScott]

I'm aware the YC-73 is weighted. If it's the same "balanced" weighted action I've played on other Yamaha keyboards I wouldn't mind it as an allrounder.

The only other board with that exact action is the CP73.

 

I've tried the Fantom. It sounds fantastic, is built like a brick, and while the 7 keybed is indeed a very nice synth one, again, it's not the kind of action I'm looking for for my workhorse/allrounder.

I'm well used to the TP80 for piano playing, so don't mind that.

Yeah, that gets into very subjective territory. I just played piano on the Fantom 6/7 action this week for the first time, and I found I could easily control dynamics, more so than on the TP/8O on the NS3, which is by no means terrible. From that perspective, I also prefer the actions of the PC4-7, the YC61, and the Vox Continental to that of the NS3, and I even prefer the TP/8O as it is found on the SK Pro. OTOH, I prefer the NS3 action to the Numa Compact series, the Korg PA1000, the lower end Korgs (like King Korg and Kross), the lower end Rolands (like VR-09 and DS61), the MODX6/7, or the TP/8O as found on the Dexibell (and among that list, there is substantial variation as well, I by no means mean to group them all into a category of being of similar quality).

[nadroj]

Thanks for the responses. Nord Stage 3 makes the most sense given my needs, but there's a part of me that really wants to go for something else lol.

 

PC4-7 with a Vent for the leslie sim. Great keybed for playability. All bases covered. Affordable.

 

Dave, your input here is valuable because I once saw a post from you when you said a PC3 with a vent was your single board solution for 10+ years, and it judging by your sig you're quite the hammond guy. How satisfied were you with KB3 + Vent?

 

Yeah, that gets into very subjective territory. I just played piano on the Fantom 6/7 action this week for the first time, and I found I could easily control dynamics, more so than on the TP/8O on the NS3, which is by no means terrible. From that perspective, I also prefer the actions of the PC4-7, the YC61, and the Vox Continental to that of the NS3, and I even prefer the TP/8O as it is found on the SK Pro. OTOH, I prefer the NS3 action to the Numa Compact series, the Korg PA1000, the lower end Korgs (like King Korg and Kross), the lower end Rolands (like VR-09 and DS61), the MODX6/7, or the TP/8O as found on the Dexibell (and among that list, there is substantial variation as well, I by no means mean to group them all into a category of being of similar quality).

 

Action is very subjective, which is why I don't want to get into it much. I should elaborate that when I say "feels solid" I'm mostly talking about the instrument itself. I don't want to play something that feels like it's going to slide off of the stand if I do a palm swipe, or like I'm going to break it if I'm really getting into it, or that might be destroyed by a single bump. My Electro has survived vans and cars and bumps and jostles and scratches and has taken a beating from me at many, many gigs, and it still works like new. I'm a sucker for marketing, and when Yamaha wrote on the product page about the YC61, that it was designed to be "crammed into vans, cabins, scratched, knocked and bumped with you every night gig after gig" it got me sucked in. They may be the worst for over the top marketing jargon, but Yamaha know their target audience. That's the kind of keyboard I'm after, which kind of puts me off the PC4. I wouldn't say the MODX wasn't well built, but it didn't feel as solid as I'd have liked for regular gigging. I'm afraid the PC4 may have that same problem.

 

That guy in the other thread was right, maybe we do fret about this stuff too much lol. On the other hand, if I'm gonna drop around £2000 on an instrument I don't care how picky I seem, I want to know I've explored all of my options

[AnotherScott]

If the PC4-7 is appealing to you except for the plastic rather than metal build and the wall wart, and you're not necessarily averse to a hammer action if it is a light feeling one, then you could possibly consider a Forte 7. It looks like maybe it's being closed out at a nice price, about a grand less than it was. It's got some other nice advantages over the PC4 series as well (though is lacking the knobs).

[nadroj]

The Electro 6's crappy MIDI implementation has put a dent in option 5. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I used the Minilogue for a synth bass part to be controlled by the Electro, along with a polybrass sample and a piano sound up top both coming from the Electro, because the E6 only transmits on one global channel the synth bass would end up playing over every other sound too? If I'm correct, there's no way of telling the Electro not to play the external synth past a certain range? That's crippling if so.

[stoken6]

It's threads like these that allow Nord to maintain the Stage's cost premium over other boards...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[nadroj]

It's threads like these that allow Nord to maintain the Stage's cost premium over other boards...

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

I might not buy a Stage just to spite them.

[AnotherScott]

If I'm correct, there's no way of telling the Electro not to play the external synth past a certain range? That's crippling if so.

Yes, that's my understanding as well. (The Electro 5 was better, in that you could at least limit your external synth to only keys above a certain note, but there was still no way to limit it to only keys below a certain note.) You can get around it, by operating in Local Off and managing all your splits and layers externally, e.g. through an iPad app like Keyscape, Camelot Pro, iMidiPatchbay, etc., or through various PC/Mac apps. But the Nord is hardly alone in this limitation.

 

In terms of built-in management of external MIDI triggering, the boards mentioned stack up this way:

 

Nord Electro 6, Vox Continental, Roland VR-730: single zone

Nord Stage 3: 2-zone

Hammond SK-Pro: 3-zone

Yamaha YC, Dexibell J7: 4-zone

MODX: 8-zone

Kurzweil PC4/Forte, Roland Fantom, Korg Nautilus/Kronos: 16-zone

[Delaware Dave]

Dave, your input here is valuable because I once saw a post from you when you said a PC3 with a vent was your single board solution for 10+ years, and it judging by your sig you're quite the hammond guy. How satisfied were you with KB3 + Vent?

 

see this post: https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3102137/re-broken-equipment#Post3102137

[eric]

I"m here to recommend the NS3.