Time for another pedantic theory question

[Reezekeys]

Sumpin' like this. I know some things are misspelled, but that's how I'd do it. lol Sorry stuff is so darn big

 

Wow, thanks for this input Linwood! I'm leaving for a while but will be home later to check this out â I already see one chord spelling I'm gonna steal from you!

[linwood]

No sweat. It's what us nerds do.

[AROIOS]

...

Even if we do go down the path of using a tool for it unintended purpose, wouldn't F#sus2/B take care of that "omit3" problem more concisely?

That's a fair point, if I hadn't written out the voicings. I wanted the chord symbol to correctly reflect the harmony there. That is most definitely a B6/9.

 

Based on my experience, one good indicator of an intriguing chord voicing is often our struggle to "correctly reflect the harmony", in other words, the ambiguity of the voicing's harmonic function when we try to pigeonhole that novel sound into old theoretical frameworks.

 

Take Blues for example, the bIII blues note brilliantly blurs the boundary between our traditional Major and Minor harmonic perceptions.

 

The Isus2/III (or IIIm7#5) chord discussed in this thread is another example of this kind of beautiful ambiguity. I've always considered it simply the "3-2-5-1" chord, or a "Ballad-ish" alternative to the 1st inversion of Imaj if I have to follow notation conventions. So the Isus2/III interpretation fits my bill perfectly. But I listen to a lot of Brazilian music, and can certainly understand where the other folks are coming from when they consider it a m7#5.

 

As others have pointed out already, context matters a lot when we try to shoehorn these ambiguous chords into old harmonic categories. And let's not forget that those categories were created to interpret what our musical forerunners heard and appreciated, not the other way around. When a beautiful, novel voicing doesn't fit squarely in an existing pigeonhole, maybe it's time for us to simply give it a new name it deserves.

[jazzpiano88]

You play "Jazz", and you've somehow escaped learning the notation to this simple chord?

 

That's pretty funny.

 

Seeing how a lot of people in this thread - you included - didn't exactly agree on what to call it, maybe we all have something to learn?!

 

Sorry Reeze, this was really tongue in cheek for you and I and any other forum members who didn't know the title of the Jazz standard Wave. I didn't mind being called out as being an idiot, so I thought I'd dish it back in humor to see if you got it, for which I clearly missed the mark.

 

It's all good though. I'm a huge Jackets fan and would help crowdfund a Russell Ferrante Q&A or to get his take on the nomenclature. For me I go with the notation that makes me hear the harmony in my head. Some refinement of Dbsus/Bb would get there for me.

 

Also, I was going to ask, "What's the bass player playing". When you showed the bass part in your last post, those are the two notes I would choose.

[AROIOS]

As I said before, I prefer m7#5 - even though in American jazz/pop there is no conventional naming of this chord, there is a convention in Brazilian music which even connotes that specific voicing.

 

Speaking of voicing, part of what I consider good chord voicing is minimization of note movement between chords, and in sight-reading I often think in terms of that. Often a set of chord changes can be explained by, say, a guitar voicing where only one finger is moved by one fret. In your example, on the bottom line, starting with the Gb/Db,

 

 

 

... there is good voice leading built into the chord progression already, and the context makes clear that the move from B 6/9 to Bbm7#5 could involve only changing the bass note, if you leave out the 3rd as I did (or put it in, but the shape of the voice leading is clear).

 

In music like this chords can go anywhere, and so key signatures and enharmonic spellings can be problematic. Case in point, going from Db to B natural in the bass is not the greatest, but neither is using a Cb - I too would prefer to use B :-)

 

The "Bbm7#5" in the context you provided sounds more like a Isus2/III chord (Gbsus2/Bb). It's often heard in the popular IVadd9-I/III-IIIb6-IIm7 progression (see attachment) in 90's Pop, e.g. Extreme's "More Than Words". I don't hear anything particularly "minor" about it as the m in "m7#5" would suggest.

 

I think we should be able to come up with a better example to showcase the m7#5 function of this chord voicing.

[ApprenticeGary]

To me it"s a standard (better) version of major chord with 3rd in the bass. A 9th to avoid the doubling of 3rd and make it fuller. If you play a series of this chord in parallel, you"ll sense more of its 'major' flavor. I play it a lot while doing Stevie Wonder tunes.

[Reezekeys]

The "Bbm7#5" in the context you provided sounds more like a Isus2/III chord (Gbsus2/Bb). It's often heard in the popular IVadd9-I/III-IIIb6-IIm7 progression (see attachment) in 90's Pop, e.g. Extreme's "More Than Words". I don't hear anything particularly "minor" about it as the m in "m7#5" would suggest.

I would argue that Gbsus2/Bb sounds very different than a Bbm7#5. "Sus2" implies a major second interval - in this case, the Gb and Ab directly above. IMO that clustery sound is very different from the more open-sounding voicing of fourths implied by Bbm7#5. And how is it not minor in quality, when you have a root, minor 3rd and minor 7th in the voicing? Yes the #5 changes the sound, but it's still very much a minor chord to me. But hey... this is music not particle physics!

I think we should be able to come up with a better example to showcase the m7#5 function of this chord voicing.

Maybe so, but once again I emphasize that my purpose in starting this thread was not to analyse this chord in order to figure out what to call it - it was more a simple matter of spelling it in a way that conveys the sound of that open fourth type voicing, without writing it out explicitely. My chart is meant to be seen on a stage at a gig, not in a classroom!

[Reezekeys]

You play "Jazz", and you've somehow escaped learning the notation to this simple chord?

 

That's pretty funny.

 

Seeing how a lot of people in this thread - you included - didn't exactly agree on what to call it, maybe we all have something to learn?!

 

Sorry Reeze, this was really tongue in cheek for you and I and any other forum members who didn't know the title of the Jazz standard Wave. I didn't mind being called out as being an idiot, so I thought I'd dish it back in humor to see if you got it, for which I clearly missed the mark.

 

It's all good though. I'm a huge Jackets fan and would help crowdfund a Russell Ferrante Q&A or to get his take on the nomenclature. For me I go with the notation that makes me hear the harmony in my head. Some refinement of Dbsus/Bb would get there for me.

 

Also, I was going to ask, "What's the bass player playing". When you showed the bass part in your last post, those are the two notes I would choose.

HA - Ok you got me, understood now! I had forgotten about that Wave thread. Touché! I deserved this, and I'm laughing now. I did post a bit of a mea culpa in that thread: https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3082328/re-name-that-tune#Post3082328

 

I just did something I rarely do - sent a friend request on Facebook! To Russ Ferrante. I'm not holding my breath though, he seems to be pretty inactive there.

[linwood]

It's so hard to come up with symbols sometimes. Imagine if you're going from B to Bb but like:

 

B G Bb D F# A to

 

Bb Gb C Db F Bb

 

There's a can of worms for you.

[Theo Verelst]

The CD/album which originally (I think) features the song I just pushed through my studio processing / correction phases to listen to it in enhanced quality. Playing along with a few bits during the first parts of the processing I think there are a few "theme" dual tone combinations going on, of which the example above is one. Another one is like

 

F Bb C F

 

could be F#M7b5 though functionally it could be seen as holding a 4th (the C and F) and searching chromatically or according to one of the features scales for a nice or dramatic major third combination. On a well working piano, I don't know what other instruments do with this, necessarily.

 

This song on the album is the one (or one of few I haven't had time yet to play it all back) with female voice (going back to YJ origins, which is nice I think), and clearly a female touch to the harmonic findings, Duke did some of these things in the "funk" years, too, the function of the chords is more spacious and less droney , and in some cases where the production fits, a matter of leaving out less tones than putting them in.

 

T

[MathOfInsects]

I think the distinction in this thread is one of "describing" vs "prescribing" a chord Basically all of the answers in this thread "describe" the chord in question; I think the spirit of Reezekeys' question was more about how do you name that chord so someone will reliably play it on the fly in real time, even if they've never seen it before. That is, how do you prescribe it.

 

And I think the fact is that it's a slightly weird-ass chord, which is a very proper music-theory term, so all the options are a bit clunky and maybe idiosyncratic to the player.

[linwood]

Peg/Bb

[MathOfInsects]

Peg/Bb

I was headed there too with the "Gadd"2 discussion.

[linwood]

Yeah....it's like a jimi Hendrix E but you drop the top two notes down one.

[jazzpiano88]

Peg/Bb

I was headed there too with the "Gadd"2 discussion.

 

Intro notes to Star Trek in Ab / Bb

[stoken6]

Peg/Bb

I'm sticking with mu major. Everyone should be educated in them before being allowed to play quartal voicings.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[linwood]

"Intro notes to Star Trek in Ab / Bb"

 

 

 

Winner, hands down. lmao

[bfields]

Yes, that wins.

 

But doesn't the star trek theme start on the fifth? So you want it in Db not Ab.

 

(I read the thread title, and it promised pedantry, so I'm here to deliver!)

[MathOfInsects]

Yeah....it's like a jimi Hendrix E but you drop the top two notes down one.

I was going for (Steve)Gadd2.

 

[AROIOS]

It's so hard to come up with symbols sometimes. Imagine if you're going from B to Bb but like:

 

B G Bb D F# A to

 

Bb Gb C Db F Bb

 

There's a can of worms for you.

 

First one is 1st inversion of the "Spy Movie Chord" m/M9: GmM9/B.

 

Second one is 1st inversion of the "Ryuichi Sakamoto"/"Joe Hisaishi" Japanese chord, or GbMaj13b5/Bb

 

The overall vibe of this progression would be "James Bond meets Mr. Lawrence", or "Pink Panther Spirited Away".

[nursers]

I always find these posts puzzling. To my mind, you can't definitively name a chord in a vacuum. It is entirely dependent on the context. What key is the song in? What is the progression in front of and after this chord?

 

I am in nappies/ diapers theory-wise but yeah this was even my thought.

[jazzpiano88]

Yes, that wins.

 

But doesn't the star trek theme start on the fifth? So you want it in Db not Ab.

 

(I read the thread title, and it promised pedantry, so I'm here to deliver!)

 

Not to derail too much further, but the first first 8 notes of Star Trek are a beautiful example of voice leading modulation to the major2nd leading from Bbm7+ to Cm7+.

Even Mike Verta is probably impressed by this.

[linwood]

First one is 1st inversion of the "Spy Movie Chord" m/M9: GmM9/B...

 

Yes, it's hard to give that stuff a symbol and if that's all you see it limits you. You can also look at it and see M3 relationships and get much more out of it

 

B D# G Bb D F# A C# F Ab C E

 

You can take this info write spy music for days.

 

Hey...I hope I'm not comin' across like some stupid know it all. I just like talking this stuff and exploring it with like minded folks.. Sometimes with posts and emails things can sound differently than you want them to.

[AROIOS]

First one is 1st inversion of the "Spy Movie Chord" m/M9: GmM9/B...

 

Yes, it's hard to give that stuff a symbol and if that's all you see it limits you. You can also look at it and see M3 relationships and get much more out of it

 

B D# G Bb D F# A C# F Ab C E

 

You can take this info write spy music for days.

 

Hey...I hope I'm not comin' across like some stupid know it all. I just like talking this stuff and exploring it with like minded folks.. Sometimes with posts and emails things can sound differently than you want them to.

 

Not at all, I enjoy exploring and chatting about harmony. And I know as a fact that there's a ton I can learn from your wealth of knowledge and experience in harmony and arrangement.

 

Let's keep these fun and geeky chats going. Cheers.

[AROIOS]

First one is 1st inversion of the "Spy Movie Chord" m/M9: GmM9/B...

 

Yes, it's hard to give that stuff a symbol and if that's all you see it limits you. You can also look at it and see M3 relationships and get much more out of it

 

B D# G Bb D F# A C# F Ab C E

 

You can take this info write spy music for days.

 

Hey...I hope I'm not comin' across like some stupid know it all. I just like talking this stuff and exploring it with like minded folks.. Sometimes with posts and emails things can sound differently than you want them to.

 

Btw, the "spy music" scale you offered is a pretty good example of the "mirroring" technique you mentioned earlier. And my ears (and left hand) can't help adding a G# to the left of B.

[Theo Verelst]

The scales on this album and the pivot chords are pretty accurate and generally do not even allow for random added 9ths and so on, one note wrong and you're out is the situation following the song DNA with a proper instrument. Not "find some fancy chords", mainly!

 

TV

[AROIOS]

Was transcribing a chord from the Taxi Driver theme (0:28 in the YT link) and noticed how this "m7#5" chord we talked about last year can serve tastefully as a dominant chord.
 

This makes it one of the most versatile chords in terms of harmonic function. It can be heard as major, minor or dominant, based on context.
 

https://youtu.be/Ee0HbusYpuk?t=26

[AROIOS]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:38 PM, linwood said:

Lots of things you can do with 4ths and vl and chromatic moves...

Thanks for sharing it, Linwood, don't know how I missed this last year but I dig these type of chromatic movements and play with them all the time too.

[AROIOS]

On 4/5/2021 at 5:40 AM, Reezekeys said:

...
And how is it not minor in quality, when you have a root, minor 3rd and minor 7th in the voicing?
...

As I mentioned above, Bernard's usage of this chord in the Taxi Driver theme demonstrates its tasteful application as a dominant chord. And several folks in previous replies already mentioned how they hear it as 1st inversion of a major chord under different contexts. On top of my head, another example of a dominant chord that features "a root, minor 3rd and minor 7th" is the 7alt chord, typically played as 7#5#9.

This reminds us how theories and rules can sometimes be limiting rather than liberating. Thanks for starting this thread, Reeze. It's one of the most enjoyable discussions I've come across here.

[Rodan88]

I'm definitely in the Gbadd9/Bb camp.

 

A few  thoughts: (By the way I wrote this post before reading through all of the replies to the OP's post, so pardon some repetition of ground covered by others!)

 

1) It's in no way a sus2 chord, as the 3rd is included.

 

2. Though I've seen it many times - and God knows, you can write whatever you want - but Bbm7b13 (and similar symbols) really aren't "legit."  (OK, under extreme duress, if moving from, say Bbm7 with an "F" on top, to Bbm7#5 to Bbm6, I could see using the minor 7#5 nomenclature.) I don't bat an eyelash at very complicated symbols, but non-standard symbols and enharmonically incorrect spellings are apt to make me stumble quicker than something that looks like what it is.  ( I discussed this - which is my religion -  in a similar thread with you not too long ago, Reezekeys.) Sight-reading is all about pattern recognition.  Chord symbols ideally need to be drawn from accepted conventions,  notes need to be enharmonically correct, intervals should be properly spaced, etc.

 

3) Since the chord symbol specifies that the Bb is a bass note, and we all (should) know to avoid doubling the 3rd in any chord (as it greatly weakens the sonority), we're left with 3 pitches in the right hand - Ab, Db and Gb.  Any inversion of these 3 notes gets the idea across, but by far, the best spacing and most effective voicing is the voicing in 4ths, spelled Ab, Db, Gb from the bottom up - exactly as in Reezekeys' original post.  Playing higher inversions sound less cohesive, as the distance increases from the bass note.  The 2nd best voicing would be 1 inversion BELOW the original voicing - starting a 6th above the bass note, and spelled Gb, Ab, Db from the bottom up.  That's a good-sounding voicing!

 

4) Of course, the real issue is - how do you best imply this EXACT voicing from the chord symbol alone?  In my opinion, you really can't do it all that successfully.  The quickest solution (and it's a common one) is to notate the exact voicing you want whenever you want an exact voicing.  That might only happen once in a chart.  Or every time a certain voicing comes up.  Or frequently, when you're in what I'd call the "Steely Dan Situation" - where you MUST play a voicing in a very specific way to achieve the "right" sound.  I've transcribed many of their tunes, and that's how my charts are designed.  We've all experienced the letdown of buying badly arranged published sheet music when we were younger/less experienced, and before our ears were highly developed.  (I remember being really excited to get the Steely Dan Complete book when I was in high school, only to discover what a travesty it is!)  And, speaking of Steely Dan's famous "Mu" chord - while it's a specific voicing that they use all the time, it's not a term used elsewhere in music, and is only familiar to those who read the interview where they describe it.  As usual, I'm sure they were having fun at the interviewer's expense (a favorite sport of theirs, especially back in the day), and probably made up the name on the spot.  Of course, they didn't "invent" the chord, it was just a favorite device of theirs.

 

5) If, for example, you're in a band where the composers/arrangers tend to use certain voicings often, you can come to know their tendencies, and learn what they want, and what they MEAN when they use certain chord symbols.  A little discussion during rehearsals can iron this out quickly, too.

 

6) Though I'm a longtime lurker on this forum, I don't weigh in too often.  But this type of topic really strikes a nerve with me.  One of the beauties of having clear charts and a bandstand filled with excellent readers is the welcome avoidance of time-wasting that will result.  Time that can be so much better invested in making music, rather than arguing about everyone's opinion of "hmm, what happens in this spot?"  Put it in black and white, unless you want to want to feel like a member of Spinal Tap.  To that end, Linwood's more score-like approach and the suggestion to use guitar-style "top-note stem voicings" are both good solutions.  And Reezekeys - although you felt you didn't have enough space to write in your voicing, I think there are variously workable solutions, involving adjusting the layout/using an "ossia" staff above the main staff/using cue-sized notes in parentheses, etc.

 

I love the energy we all have to examine this issue from a myriad of different angles!  Another example of what makes the Keyboard Corner so unique!