Recognizing chords

[I-missRichardTee]

we could reduce them to even intervals in the first octave by subtracting 7 from them (i.e., 9 - 7 = 2, 11 - 7 = 4, and 13 - 7 = 6). But we refer to them as 9, 11, and 13 so we can maintain the rule of always skipping an interval-- that is, we always skip the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, and 14th.

My understanding has always been that saying a chord is 9th, 11th, etc., implies the 7th. If you say a chord is or has the 2nd, it right just be a 1-3-5 triad with the 2nd (probably replacing the 3rd), not a 7th chord.

 

Yes Joe, that was what Spud Murphy taught me as well.

 

I enjoy reading each of the posts on open ended questions like this.

Michael Rideout.. wow.. you have good powers of focus going on

 

I want to put another spin on this.

I play bass as well as keys. The root motions, bass players grow familiar with, are another helpful factor as well.

 

So recognition of a number of root progressions is something we all get better at over time.

The more time you spend, the more of a growing catalogue of chord progressions become a part of you.. and your ability to recognize chords!

 

Here are some of the simplest ( All in C major ) C G C.

C F C

C F C G C

C Am F G C this single progression was etched in my ear ( sometimes painfully ) during my early years. Why? It was called doc top music.. Some of my first gigs.

 

Stepping up one level above doowop and beatles or Motown come to mind.

Then American songbook chord progressions, with all their typical temporary modulations

In American Songbook music these were the most common modulations

In C they went most commonly to F

or Am

or Dm ( Bewitched bothered )

or G major

or Ab

or Fm

A great source for learning are these Tin Pan alley brilliancies.

 

I do not want to overlook 2 great areas Big band voicings and Gospel harmony!

 

My broad point is you need to be like an absorbent ocean... taking in all of this music

gradually and having these harmonies be a part of you.

THEN you can mess with Bill Evans Brad Meldau Chick Corea who are all based in simpler things.

-------------------------------

There are some general rules I have noted in classical harmony books

If you look at chord progressions from the standpoint of the roots of the chords

 

Down a third is stronger than up a third. ( however I like eg C up to E7 !! ) up.

Up a fourth is stronger than up a fifth.

Are two examples from the classical theory world.

 

I have mentally argued against this theory, and recalled this:

Up a fifth keeps moving you away from the tonic.. more so than up a fourth,

Songs that have many up a fourth progressions, are as common as John and Joe

But songs that go up a fifth repeatedly, are rare!!

 

Fly Me to the Moon ( In Other Words ) is a song jammed with up a fourth... there are tens of thousands

but how many use the opposite, up a fifth?

Hey Joe is one example.. I lack the ability to think of many or any more!!

Going key of C C to G to D to A to E is rare. But C to F B to E A D G is common

And if you take issue with the B use Bb ... C to F to Bb to Eb to Ab Db to C

 

Perhaps some genius will find new ways to use up a third and up a Fifth progressions! This is how theory helps it makes us more conscious of the materials we composers use.

 

Harmony has evolved over centuries

So there are simple harmonies

and mid way complicated ones ( Tin Pan Alley Beatles Stevie wonder )

and Wayne Shorter, Clare Fischer, Herbie Hancock level ones

 

a folk song in major is simple. I would check my ability to rapidly hear those root progressions and the chord qualities

 

then there is the American Songbook level. Same idea

 

Then beyond that level with guys like Herbie and Wayne from the 1960s.

 

Identify what levels of harmony are your point of complexity that need attention.

 

I constantly test my musical ear on simpler harmonies. Melodies too.

[Bobadohshe]

I think you should find a teacher to guide you in a systematic fashion, otherwise, you may go off into too many directions at once.

 

We do not know enough about his circumstance. But we do know a teacher is not in his immediate plans.

 

I missed that part earlier in the thread. There's just so much information here that it is bewildering for a harmonic novice.

 

That's my point. When you're starting out, you need to narrow your focus onto one approach.

 

A novice comes here asking for some insight into the music he posted and a way to go deeper with it. The thread then quickly descends into sprawling seven paragraph responses on the nature of harmony with voicings cumbersomly typed out along with meandering philosophies that, while maybe fun to chew on intellectually, are not going to serve the OP much.

 

How about instead of trying to make sense of all this, you take the jazz piano book we talked about earlier, which gives wonderfully written explanations of the exact chord voicings you posted, and dive into it for a month or so.

[Outkaster]

I think you should find a teacher to guide you in a systematic fashion, otherwise, you may go off into too many directions at once.

 

We do not know enough about his circumstance. But we do know a teacher is not in his immediate plans.

 

I missed that part earlier in the thread. There's just so much information here that it is bewildering for a harmonic novice.

 

That's my point. When you're starting out, you need to narrow your focus onto one approach.

 

A novice comes here asking for some insight into the music he posted and a way to go deeper with it. The thread then quickly descends into sprawling seven paragraph responses on the nature of harmony with voicings cumbersomly typed out along with meandering philosophies that, while maybe fun to chew on intellectually, are not going to serve the OP much.

 

How about instead of trying to make sense of all this, you take the jazz piano book we talked about earlier, which gives wonderfully written explanations of the exact chord voicings you posted, and dive into it for a month or so.

 

 

Well said.....

 

[chigson]

My understanding has always been that saying a chord is 9th, 11th, etc., implies the 7th. If you say a chord is or has the 2nd, it right just be a 1-3-5 triad with the 2nd (probably replacing the 3rd), not a 7th chord.

I can't remember if I've seen a notation with 2nd in it. I'd probably think of Csus2 chord.

The thing with 'following' note doesn't always work, especially in cases one chord could mean many: for example, chords like Cdim maj7/13 played as , could be Adim 7/9, or even B7/b9. Those are especially hard to guess in a tune

[MathOfInsects]

Too IMRT; didnt read.

[Bobadohshe]

I can't remember if I've seen a notation with 2nd in it. I'd probably think of Csus2 chord.

The thing with 'following' note doesn't always work, especially in cases one chord could mean many: for example, chords like Cdim maj7/13 played as , could be Adim 7/9, or even B7/b9. Those are especially hard to guess in a tune

 

You'll see it from time to time.

 

C add 2 means play a C chord and throw the 2 (D) in there too. More commonly written as C add 9.

 

Csus2 means play a C chord and play a 2 (D) in there but DON'T play a 3rd. (Of course sometimes I do anyway)

 

C2 could mean either of the above.

[chigson]

I can't remember if I've seen a notation with 2nd in it. I'd probably think of Csus2 chord.

The thing with 'following' note doesn't always work, especially in cases one chord could mean many: for example, chords like Cdim maj7/13 played as , could be Adim 7/9, or even B7/b9. Those are especially hard to guess in a tune

 

You'll see it from time to time.

 

C add 2 means play a C chord and throw the 2 (D) in there too. More commonly written as C add 9.

 

Csus2 means play a C chord and play a 2 (D) in there but DON'T play a 3rd. (Of course sometimes I do anyway)

 

C2 could mean either of the above.

Yeah I know these things, when there is a chord written in letters I can play it pretty easily, struggling only with ones that I rarely see, like fully diminished chords.

There are a lot of good ideas in this thread, I'll definitely continue working on that book for now, and will see if I can implement some of the other ideas into my training

[I-missRichardTee]

Too IMRT; didnt read.

 

Whatever

[MathOfInsects]

And D2 is just the name of that particular R2 unit.

[The Real MC]

So, how do you guys train yourselves to quickly figure out which chord is which?

 

PRACTICE

 

Yes, that ugly word - PRACTICE

 

Play them enough, and your ears and fingers gradually learns them on impulse.

 

There is no shortcut.

[Mjazz]

C add 2 means play a C chord and throw the 2 (D) in there too. More commonly written as C add 9.

Known to Steely Dan acolytes as the "mu (µ) major" chord, heard everywhere in SD music.

 

http://www.hakwright.co.uk/steelydan/mu-major.html

[Mjazz]

Down a third is stronger than up a third. ( however I like eg C up to E7 !! ) ... Perhaps some genius will find new ways to use up a third ... progressions!

Here are some jazz examples:

 

Someday My Prince Will Come

Birth Of The Blues

I'll Be Seeing You

I Should Care

On a Slow Boat to China

On The Sunny Side Of The Street

World Is Waiting For The Sunrise

As Long As I Live

Basin Street Blues

I Can't Believe You're In Love With Me

Just In Time

All of Me

Cottage For Sale (A)

After You've Gone

Come Rain Or Come Shine

I'm Glad There Is You

Lady Be Good

Limehouse Blues

Taking A Chance On Love

I Remember Clifford

 

(Courtesy Ralph Patt's Tonal Centers page.)

 

[poserp]

One thing I've found that works for me is to use this app to set up chord progressions, because I don't have to simultaneously (yet) be at the keyboard. For me I'm interested in composing, and then playing, so my mind starts with "what am I hearing", then figuring out how to play it. The iPad version has a keyboard at the top showing the keys that are part of the played chord; I use that as a starting point and move them around in the octaves according to what I think sounds good. Hopefully over time I'll develop a more intuitive see it/play it thing, but I realize that to make that jump I'll have to actually sit down with sheet music. In the meantime, I find it great fun for putting together chord progressions:

 

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/suggester/id504740787?mt=8

 

EDIT: Adding, it might not be clear from the Apple page, but you just tap the chord you want to hear and it plays. You can then add it to a sequence of chords that you might be working on, set the duration for the chord, and then the app will play back your sequence (and it has MIDI out). I don't have it MIDIed up to anything, I just tap around on chords and find combos that I like, then put them together in progressions. Then, I sit down and try to play through them.

 

[Dave Ferris]

Down a third is stronger than up a third. ( however I like eg C up to E7 !! ) ... Perhaps some genius will find new ways to use up a third ... progressions!

Here are some jazz examples:

 

Someday My Prince Will Come

Birth Of The Blues

I'll Be Seeing You

I Should Care

On a Slow Boat to China

On The Sunny Side Of The Street

World Is Waiting For The Sunrise

As Long As I Live

Basin Street Blues

I Can't Believe You're In Love With Me

Just In Time

All of Me

Cottage For Sale (A)

After You've Gone

Come Rain Or Come Shine

I'm Glad There Is You

Lady Be Good

Limehouse Blues

Taking A Chance On Love

I Remember Clifford

 

(Courtesy Ralph Patt's Tonal Centers page.)

 

One of my favorites not played too often is "Namely You". The original definitive version was played by Sonny Rollins. This might be my favorite with Kenny Barron and Ralph Moore.

 

Agree with Bobby in that learn the basics first, stick with one method and/or teacher. Too much detail here. Start out easy. Your first run shouldn't be a Marathon.

 

Levine is a good place to start for an aspiring Jazz player, or someone who just wants to learn the "language" to enhance their pop or classical playing. Better results will be ingrained long term with having a teacher.

[I-missRichardTee]

Down a third is stronger than up a third. ( however I like eg C up to E7 !! ) ... Perhaps some genius will find new ways to use up a third ... progressions!

Here are some jazz examples:

 

Someday My Prince Will Come

Birth Of The Blues

I'll Be Seeing You

I Should Care

On a Slow Boat to China

On The Sunny Side Of The Street

World Is Waiting For The Sunrise

As Long As I Live

Basin Street Blues

I Can't Believe You're In Love With Me

Just In Time

All of Me

Cottage For Sale (A)

After You've Gone

Come Rain Or Come Shine

I'm Glad There Is You

Lady Be Good

Limehouse Blues

Taking A Chance On Love

I Remember Clifford

 

(Courtesy Ralph Patt's Tonal Centers page.)

 

Nice resource thank you. I hope this tool is helpful to our friend.

 

I just noticed Taking A chance on Love Where is the up a third progression?

 

Regarding up a third and up a fifth root progressions... I was saying more than just one up a third

but multiple occurrences.

Again Hey Joe by Hendrix is the sole tune I can think of that has multiple up a fifth progressions. Worth noting, in spite of one of the jackals here.

 

My shotgun approach to harmony assistance .. was open ended. Maybe Dave MOI Bobby, missed that?

 

I sent the Bill Evans video that dovetails with my own approach ( though I quit long ago, where Bill did not )

Start where you are at in the hands and comprehension of harmony.. I will stand on that.

Levine is an amazing collection. it should be used judiciously and can easily lead one away from their center of gravity..

That is why I offered an arbitrary division of harmony into 3 historical periods

And to start where you live.

Gradually expand your harmonic knowledge and keyboard hand skills.

Levine is fine... but he is potent... a little goes a long way. I feel Bobby was reminding OP of this.

You cannot rush this kind of knowledge.

 

I have made an open invitation to field questions for OP, as long as they are the result of he wrestling with the material before asking. Not broad questions about harmony.

I do not understand the attitude here from certain respected members

I am not seeking to confuse the OP, but to help him, in lieu of a qualified teacher.

Why not open up a long running thread ( here ) that discusses harmonic problems from early to midway point?

It would be a welcome service to OP, and over time, many others.

 

[I-missRichardTee]

OP... starting from where you are intellectually secure about harmony... Can you describe what harmonic area you feel secure about?

After that is made clear... I am sure you will want to move to the hazy areas just outside where you are comfortable.

When young, Tonic Dominant Tonic and Tonic Subdominant Tonic were comfortable...

then those secondary dominants entered into my life!

These KC fellows here, will make sure what ever I offer will be scrutinized... so let's try this.

 

 

[chigson]

Hmm, I'm not sure how should I describe it? Maybe a few questions to start from would be helpful!

Before diving into jazz, I played a lot of classical music (and I didn't really care about harmony stuff, unfortunately): Chopin, Rachmaninoff, even Liszt's 2nd Hungarian rhapsody). I also loved Czerny's etudes and when I was practicing back a few years, I could play a quarter of them in mid tempo.

I started learning jazz not so long ago, so maybe some of my usual training routine would tell you more about my playing:

I focus more on understanding/hearing stuff instead of playing it, hearing II-V-I's, cadences, etc. I'm trying to get used to all types of chords, like diminished, rootless chords, and not so long ago I started using that knowledge when playing the tunes I already know, like 'Misty' and 'What are you doing with the rest of your life' (they seemed easy to start with). I also often spend time on listening to some tunes and transcribing the melody and basic chords to the note sheet (is that how it's called in english?). I thought it would be a good idea to write down the basic chords for some tunes, and try to add some changes later on. But there are too many tunes I'm in love with, so I need to first transcribe the melodies and basic chords to many of them, haha.

[Quai34]

Ok, but what is your question?

[chigson]

I was talking about the thing that I don't know how to answer the question from I-missRichardTee, so I asked for some follow-up questions.

[Quai34]

Ok, also my bad, I didn't see the beginning of the post and thought you were the first one...Now it makes sense....Ok, what time is it now in Ukraine? 12 o' Clock? Visited Moscou and St Petersbourg but never been in Ukraine....

[chigson]

Yep, it's 11:20 AM here. I'm living in a top-notch-best-ever city in Ukraine, Lviv. Come visit us some time

[I-missRichardTee]

chigson

I seem to be endeavoring to assist you in some small but hopefully ongoing ways, in spite of pressure from some of the better players here who are saying "ignore i miss richard tee's thoughts, which are too confusing, and instead use Mark Levine book or a related book. I feel preliminary steps should be checked out prior to Levine.

 

I was attempting to open up the topic so that multiple forumites could participate in responding to questions about harmony that you might have; over time, in an ongoing manner. Almost a new way to learn online.

I am going against the tide here. But I will proceed if you have a question about eg Misty or What Are You Doing the Rest of Your Life.

Although again, I recommend looking at an easier genre first.

 

 

What simple songs do you know that perhaps western minds might be familiar with?

You know, Twinkle Twinkle little Star, simple.

I always find it best to start where I am very comfortable , whether in music or math or any study that has many layers of increasing complexity.

 

An concrete example is the centrality of the role Tonality plays in harmony; which immediately brings up Tonic Dominant and Subdominant harmony. If these most basic concepts of harmony are too quickly passed over, I think more complex ideas become more vague.

Prior to a comprehensive book Like Mark Levine's:

There are many ways of incorporating basic harmony into your hands, ear and mind.

Your hands playing these 3 chords and sensing through hearing and understanding how they make tonal music make sense.

ii9 V9 I9 is a more advanced step than I IV V I harmony. That is my reasoning anyway.

And not just your hands on the three basic chords, but your understanding from a composers pov. as in Composition 101.

I am not disagreeing with esteemed people here like Ferris and Bobby.. but suggesting postponing Levine or berklee until a more basic understanding is clear... just a few months. You can still ask questions about Misty etc.

 

There are many smart minds here.

Perhaps a few here would wish to participate... constructively!

[I-missRichardTee]

[video:youtube]

 

A genius at work. He is in C major .

[chigson]

I appreciate your help! Yeah at first I though there would already be a place here to ask such questions, but didn't find it.

I didn't quite understand the part about "Composition 101", what do you mean by that?

Also, you're saying it would be good to pay attention to more basic stuff for a couple of months - could you describe that more? I've heard the 'Twinkle Twinkle little Star' and some similar songs (I actually can come up with only one example for now - 'Oh My Darling Clementine', would that count?). I could already play them from the first try probably, with basic tritones in the left hand. Could you describe how would you recommend to approach studying such tunes?

[I-missRichardTee]

Composition 101 was meaning the simplest aspect of Composition.

 

Yes Clementine is a fine simple song. Do you feel confident in its harmony?

How about Happy Birthday?

Amazing Grace?

Add more simple songs to this list. then check your ability to harmonize them... not reharmonize them with so called jazz harmony. That is later in the process.

 

I am not a teacher but I am told i need to learn more about your knowledge of songs, and what pianist or genre you might be especially drawn to. Speaking autobiographically I think what worked for me, may well work for you.

As a little boy, I liked Fats Domino. A few years later, I was attracted to Dave Brubeck .

Then I later fell under the sway of Miles Davis and his masterful pianists such as Bill Evans, Victor Feldman, Wynton Kelly etc etc.

The beauty of dealing with your strong attractions {affinities} ( players and styles of music ) is this fortifies you for the extended amount of time you necessarily have to listen for hundreds of times to certain aspects of their playing of a piece. If you were not strongly attracted to this or that player, repeated listening would be intolerably monotonous.

 

So in an effort to know you better. Do you have a favorite player? A favorite genre?

 

More basic stuff? I can think of a number of ways, but the most expedient in my case, was the reality of making a living in music business.. So as a beginner I played very basic rock and roll music. And the two basic chord progressions ( which I did not appreciate at the time! ) were

DooWop music which is characterized by this chord progression in key of C

C Am F G . That is I vi IV V

The other chord progression was from blues from the fifties I IV I V IV I V that is 12 bar blues. I played in famous bands that used these chord progressions.

Now these basic chords are a part of me.

As a very little boy I played boogie woogie at a basic level... again The most basic harmony there is... I IV I V IV I ( V is optional in the cadence ) .

 

I recommend spending some time with ultra simple pop music of USA from 1950- 1960. That, and folk like songs such as Happy Birthday Twinkle Star, Clementine etc.

 

This is all pre Levine. and Pre american song book.

 

Misty is american songbook, and involves modulation.

 

Guys here may laugh at what I am suggesting but listen to doowop music and be sure you can easily discern the I chord the IV and the V before you move up the degree of difficulty.

 

Same idea with blues.. in jazz almost everyone I know is in a hurry to play more advanced forms of blues and rarely spend time on C F and G kind of Blues that BB King was a master of.

Am I making any sense for you?

 

One point I failed to make... you want to associate chords progressions with melodies.

[chigson]

Do you have a favorite player? A favorite genre?

Yeah, totally. I dig Bill Evans very much, and he's the guy I listen to 50% of my time now. I also like Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, Miles, Oscar Peterson, Ahmad Jamal, Hiromi Uehara, Thelonious Monk and many others. I like many musicians - I won't even start naming non-pianists, haha

Judging by style - the closest ones to my 'feeling' of music would be Bill Evans,

(not sure if you've heard of him, great pianist) and Keith Jarrett

DooWop music which is characterized by this chord progression in key of C

C Am F G .

Yeah, that's a common one. I even remember improvising on a song based on that progression yesterday

 

There is definitely some truth to what you're saying! I'll try to include some of the simpler songs to my training routine.

 

The thing that bugs me is that I'm not sure on how to spend time with that music. With jazz tunes I usually figure the basic chords and try to go away from the tune little by little, adding some extensions, changing rhythm/ melody, and that's the way I learn them for now. Should I do the same with these tunes you suggest?

[Theo Verelst]

The OP can be answered mathematically for the most part. It is quite possible to translate those notes from the scorein the image into chord symbols.

 

There's usually a pattern in the chords that comes down to one of the main chord types, translated to any of the semitones in an octave. So in the key of C, it's a matter of collapsing the main parts of the chord into one octave, and seeing whether they are one of major, minor, sus2/sus4, diminished, augmented, possibly with a major or minor 7th. This spans most traditional chords.

 

Of course, there's a difference using octaves or not. A major 7th sounds different when you span an extra octave or not. But apart from transition chords and specific added notes, which apart from 2 and 6 (and the traditional dominant 7, with some level of dimishing (undiminished, once diminished, or double diminished)) are usually an octave higher than the rest of the chord notes, in basic form. Of course the main notes of the main chord types can be in all kinds of inversion taking pretty much any number of added octaves.

 

The point is every sensible chord except for advanced (seldom the RealBook ones) can be called by a singular name, so e.g. a Ebmaj7 is not simultaneously another chord, even if parts coincide with more than a few. So a chord is a chord, and is normally one of the main forms, maybe with a 7th or some additions, but then too, the naming is pretty much unique. A combination of a major chord type and the specific key of the chord. So a C major is never another chord, and the structure in terms of the distance of the notes in the chord (in semitones) is the same for the major chord in all other keys, so C# major has the same distance between the notes constituting the chord.

 

That's the theory in a nutshell, took me a while to figure out when I was a teen, works perfectly and is consistent and a chord language spoken to my knowledge throughout the world.

 

Learning to recognizing those chords and playing them quickly is another matter, for human being that takes time to practice, or put a mathematical part of the brain to work to analyze. Getting fluent with all these chords and some interesting combinations of the main chords and additions is hard, and cannot be easily learned, probably takes time for everybody, especially when subtlety and taste are a requirement!

 

T.V.

[Pianolando]

I can highly recommend Mark Levines books, this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jazz_Theory_Book is pure gold.

 

 

(Btw, the answers in your linked image is neither right or wrong, just one of the options these chords could be, but without bass note/root there cannot be a definitive answer)

[chigson]

If I recall correctly, those chords are from 'Beautiful Love' by Bill Evans. That progression is part of the harmony of the song, so I figured that chords were the ones he implied.

[I-missRichardTee]

I am busy today ( it is morning here ) learning songs for a gig. I am hoping someone will offer suggestions for how to drill simplest triads of I IV V vi chords

I want to give this thought in terms of how to illustrate the notes, and which triad drills.

 

Bill Evans is a magnificent choice for an artist. He is deeply steeped in European music from Bach to Hindemith.

 

One other suggestion you may or may not appreciate

On youtube you can find these old recordings of American pop music from the 1950's.

I was forced to play this music, but if you do not mind, learning to imitate the pianists on those recordings, this is one direct way to connect those simple triads with actual melodies and the rhythms associated with that genre.

Many may say no this idea.. but it helped implant these most basic musical structures in both my

1. my ear

2. my mind ( theory of music.. " Tonic( 1) Subdominant(4) Dominant(5) Submediant (6)

3. my hands on the keyboard

 

This primitive training will set you up to play the next level of harmony more easily.

 

I will be back.