Digital Acoustic Piano sounds

[kram21]

I have a Yamaha Cp4 -i play it mainly through audio technical M 50 headphones ;all of the acoustic pianos sound rich and full; however when plating thru QSC K10 or yamah HS8 monitors[both in stereo -speaker and piano} the sounds are thin and uninspiring ,very unlike with headphones;

please make any suggestions to obtain a "nicer" sound when playing with speaker monitors

thank you

M

[vanderSchoot]

I think we all experienced what you describe !

In order to get the tone comparable to headphones one has to hit the wallet hard.

And all things that you also have to consider like room type , position and floor/wall materials in the room that influences the outcoming sound of your speakers tremendously.

Let's assume you have a very neutral room that doesn't influences your tone in a negative way....

 

I think only the likes of Fulcrum Aucoustic and L-Acoustics are giving you the same defenition as what comes out a good set of headphones.

 

I believe member Dave Ferris has RCF's and speaks highly about them, a bit cheaper than those mentioned above bit still pretty expensive when you buy two.

 

Again, most keyboard players came to the same conclusion that with a moderate budget one cannot recreate the sound of headphones through stereo speakers.

that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy your cheaper speakers.

I have a stereo amp (MS KP500SN) that i like very much for live usage.

[Reezekeys]

Have you experimented with the on-board EQ settings? I looked at the CP4 manual and it appears to have a pretty good EQ section five bands of parametric, with the low & hi band also switchable to shelving. That's a lot of control for an on-board EQ. Saying it sounds "thin" would tell me to boost between 200-500Hz, with a rather small Q setting. Or, is it possible your EQ is already set to a non-flat curve and that's what's causing it to sound thin? (I'm looking at page 46 of the manual BTW).

[cphollis]

You can get close to the "headphone effect" with a nicer pair of PA speakers, on poles behind you with your head in the sweet spot. "Nicer" has a lot to do with how much you want to spend. You start getting into the zone with something like a pair of QSC K8.2s or similar.

[burningbusch]

When you're listening through headphones, 100% of the left channel reaches your left ear and 100% of the right channel your right. There are no phase cancellation or room issues. When you listen to speakers in a room, that's not the case. A decent percentage of the opposite channel reaches the other ear, so phase cancelation issues resulting in a thinning of the sound is not uncommon. How bad this becomes is a function of speaker placement relative to your ears and the room itself. An untreated room will boost/cut certain frequencies. Experiment by moving your speakers right next to each other. You'll be hearing, essentially, mono with severe phase cancellation of a stereo source like a piano. As you spread the speakers, the sound will improve.

 

You can throw a bunch of money at speakers, and it will help to a degree, but if your placement is off and the room has issues, you're still going to have a less than optimal sound.

 

Busch.

[Dave Ferris]

I have the ATH-M50s and they're pretty good but I prefer the Senn HD650s, they're smoother.

 

Headphones vs speakers on DPs -- Oh man if I could get my Yamahas (or any DP) to sound through speakers, especially live, like they do through the Senns, that would really be a coup.

[PianoMan51]

Have you experimented with the on-board EQ settings? I looked at the CP4 manual and it appears to have a pretty good EQ section five bands of parametric, with the low & hi band also switchable to shelving. That's a lot of control for an on-board EQ. Saying it sounds "thin" would tell me to boost between 200-500Hz, with a rather small Q setting. Or, is it possible your EQ is already set to a non-flat curve and that's what's causing it to sound thin? (I'm looking at page 46 of the manual BTW).

It's amazing how just +/- 2dB at 200Hz can either thicken or thin an AP sound. Don't get new speakers until you've become a master of the CP-4 EQ.

[Mjazz]

Have you experimented with the on-board EQ settings? I looked at the CP4 manual and it appears to have a pretty good EQ section five bands of parametric, with the low & hi band also switchable to shelving. That's a lot of control for an on-board EQ. Saying it sounds "thin" would tell me to boost between 200-500Hz, with a rather small Q setting. Or, is it possible your EQ is already set to a non-flat curve and that's what's causing it to sound thin? (I'm looking at page 46 of the manual BTW).

On the CP4 a better way to implement this might be to use a 5-band equalizer as an Effect within a particular Performance, rather than change the EQ settings for the entire board. Just pick an acoustic piano voice you like, then go to the Effect-B slot, select the EQ501 type equalizer, then fiddle with the parameter settings.

 

EDIT > PART > EFFECT-B

 

For the Category (Ctg) select MSC.

 

For the Type, select EQ 501.

 

Then down-arrow into the 5 band parameter settings and season to taste.

 

Save the Performance.

[Theo Verelst]

Many speakers are not neutral: put a microphone on them, and compare the sound that you hear naturally, for example a human voice, and the tones and colors that come out of the speaker.

 

The problem with the headphone nicety is that it is usually quite fake, and works only at certain volumes for certain material, because that's what some people have tried to program in the sound, which is a lot easier with certain digital signal processing being available, than projecting a decent speaker sound into a listening space. The headphones (in my case) do not please me much either with stock sounds, even through the situation is playable, because I hear the errors, and it bores me which approximation one can play at with the playing style: it's not much freedom to work with proper harmonics and dynamics.

 

Anyhow, my latest experiments with a certain (very complicated) dual path digital processing setup show a strong congruence between certain sub-signals that both the PC3 and the CP4 produce, and those signals (in every A grade mix I threw at the processing they are easily recognizable as well) can be made to balance up with the use of the multicompressor and the equalizer. I've made more than few sounds with, at first sight, strange use of the powerful CP4 effect units, and I have the impression there's good progress possible with exact settings of the global eq and mastering compression. Maybe tomorrow I'll try, and possibly I'll share the results.

 

T

[area51recording]

I've got a pair of Sennheiser HD 600's, and even my ancient Yammie P90 sounds goo through them. I NEVER was able to make that thing sound palatable live through anything.....

[Reezekeys]

It's amazing how just +/- 2dB at 200Hz can either thicken or thin an AP sound. Don't get new speakers until you've become a master of the CP-4 EQ.

1 pair L-Acoustic 108P = ~$5,000

1 pair Fulcrum Acoustic FA28ac = ~$6,500

 

Adjusting the EQ on your patch = ~$0

 

Hmm, I wonder what I'm gonna try first? Anybody want to help me out here?

 

[Dave Ferris]

1 pair L-Acoustic 108P = ~$5,000

1 pair Fulcrum Acoustic FA28ac = ~$6,500

 

Keep going, those are old prices.

[Reezekeys]

1 pair L-Acoustic 108P = ~$5,000

1 pair Fulcrum Acoustic FA28ac = ~$6,500

 

Keep going, those are old prices.

Keep going indeed... holy s&&t... https://factorysound.com/products/108p. That makes this deal on a used one look pretty good: https://www.shsglobal.store/lacoustics-108p/. It's in Europe but so what? Fly the family over, have a nice vacation, bring one home and you still might be out less than what a new one costs!

 

As for the FAs, I can't find a web page with a price on a new one... I guess they figure that if you have to ask, you probably can't afford them!

 

[EDIT - That 1st price was Aussie dollars!! That's about $4800 US, so $9600 for a pair. Still a lot of cake...]

[cphollis]

Yeah, you won't probably find a web page with Fulcrum Acoustic pricing on it. They cater to sound installers. It was a major effort on my part to track down a pair, audition them, and bag them.

 

A labor of love?

 

That being said, their magic juju time-domain coax correction is the complete bomb. As I understand it, it's a patented algorithm from the MIT founder.

 

All I can say is that it rawks in a live situation, or if you happen to want a nice pair of 2000w 12" studio monitors. Not dissing the other brands, just that I've never ever heard anything better.

 

BTW, during the audition, the 12acs completely dominated the 28acs. You know when you buy something and think "I want for no more". Yeah, that's the deal.

[Al Quinn]

I play my CP4 either through a pair of RCF TT08As or one TT08A on top of a Spacestation V3. Lately, I've been favoring the latter as it's easy to place on stage -- it has a small footprint and requires no poles -- and it disperses sound in a way that's more similar to an acoustic piano which, for me, provides a more inspiring experience. The TT08A provides clean sound and has plenty of power; the SS V3's only role is to add omni-directional sound which is a very cool feature. I face the SS V3 front speaker into the floor to silence it because to my ears the front speaker is not up to the task of reproducing the CP4's AP properly.

 

Here's a couple of gig recordings of the CP4/TT08A/SSV3 rig. Both were recorded with my iPhone with a Shure MV88 clip on stereo mic.

 

On the first recording the recorder was placed on my keyboard. So, it's basically what I heard while playing (i.e., not a representation of what the audience was hearing). Because of the position of the recorder the band mix isn't good but the CP4 is loud and clear. Sorry about the sirens: we were playing outside and there was a fire down the road.

 

 

And, on this recording the recorder was off to the side of the stage. So, it's a representation of what the audience was hearing rather than what I was hearing. Piano solo begins around 3:30.

 

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

Really nice solo on Footprints Al !

 

[PianoMan51]

Al, how do you feed the stereo outputs from the CP-4 into the two speakers?

[Al Quinn]

Dave, thanks!

 

PianoMan51, CP4 left and right outputs are connected to SS V3 left and right inputs. SS V3 Sub Out is connected to the TT08A input.

[PianoMan51]

That means that the TT08A is receiving the mixed sum of L and R from the CP-4.

 

Then the next question is: which CP-4 piano are you using that sums nicely?

[kram21]

Thank you so very much for your replies and comments

will work with internal setting for patches on AP-esp S6

will NOT spend a lot of $$$on speakers

will eventually get the real thing 7ft grand or larger

and have the real thing

 

Al-nice playing and sound on your Cp4

Dave will give SEnn HD650 ago at some point

 

 

Mark

 

[Al Quinn]

Thanks Mark.

 

PianoMan51, Im using the CFX piano with the EQ adjusted for the room and band. As mentioned previously by others, EQ adjustments are very important.