new Vox Continental - Some thoughts

[AnotherScott]

I was able to spend some more time on a Vox, and also had it next to my Kronos 61. Some observations:

 

I brought up some of my favorite EPs on the Vox, and located the seemingly identical patches on the Kronos. The action really makes a difference. Although they sounded the same from low velocity to high, they are MUCH more enjoyable to play on the Vox. (Without even engaging the Dynamics knob, or the tube.)

 

The nutube does make a difference, but even when maxxed, it did not alter the sound as dramatically as I'd expected. It is more subtle than what you can get out of the tube in the SV1/SV2, or an Ibanez nutube-based Tube Screamer, for that matter.

 

The Vox appears to have 2 grand piano samples (with the other piano programs being variations based on those two sample sets, I believe). One of them seems to be the German Grand of the Kronos. I could not identify the other... it was not the Japanese or the Berlin, which were the only other pianos on my Kronos.

 

I've mentioned before that the Dynamics knob and the action make the Vox about the most playable non-hammer action I've seen for piano sounds. The shortcoming here is that I am not particularly enamored of the acoustic piano sounds themselves. They can certainly get you through a gig, but I'd like to have the opportunity to see how the board feels playing a piano from an iPad or Surface Pro. (Not that that would work particularly seamlessly with the rest of the board's functionality, since its MIDI functionality is minimal... there's no quick way to switch between an internal and an external sound with just a button or two.)

 

Playing the same drawbar configuration in all 19 CX3 presets indicated huge variations among some of these CX3 sounds. Of course, the CX3 engine in the Kronos is very tweakable, so this represents, in a sense, a handful of "sample" CX3 organs one could create on the Kronos. But I was surprised at just how different some of these CX3 sounds were from each other (just plain, with no effects, percussion, or CV enabled). Again, it is irritating that percussion settings are not independently selectable. I'd have designed it so that you could hold the Percussion button down and then use the up and down buttons to cycle through the 9 possible settings. Instead, each Program is locked to its own Percussion setting. So while you might find a Program that has the persussion settings you want, you won't necessarily be able to enable that percussion on the organ sound you prefer.

 

I got more comfortable with the LED strips for organ manipulation. While subtle/precise manipulation is awkard (and not completely reliable, though I don't know whether that might improve with experience), it's really not bad for typical use, and has its own advantages. It benefits from thinking about new techniques that let you do things you couldn't traditionally do with drawbars, like tap a drawbar location and have it instantly "move" there, or use your finger to draw a shape across the 9 strips. Plus, of course, the LEDs always indicate the status of a recalled preset, and can be altered from that position without the "jump" or "catch" of typical faders. I was less happy with using the strips to control synth parameters. I didn't have the time to look at this in more detail, but I think an issue might be that the strips are designed/optimized for 9 discrete values, which is sensible for drawbars organ but not sufficient for synth parameters. I suspect these synth controls are more useful for leisurely programming in your own variations to the synth sounds than for real-time performance manipulation, where I had a hard time getting them to do what I wanted. That said, at least the strip for pitch LFO is a better-then-nothing substitute for the typical mod wheel usage when needed (since the board has a pitch bend lever, but no dedicated mod control).

 

I was not able to locate some of the Vox lead and synth category sounds in the Kronos, based on searching for similar names. I don't know if these sounds are unique to the Vox, or if they might be in the Kronos under very different names.

 

Answering a question no one has asked, what appeal would this board have to someone who owns a Kronos? I think quite a lot. Even though it is largely Kronos derived, it is really a whole different thing, rather than being strictly a Kronos subset. It has the transistor organ engines, the dynamics knob, the nutube, an action I consider MUCH nicer to play than the K61's (albeit lacking aftertouch), the much lighter travel weight of course, the LED strips for the organ (which, despite some shortcomings, I prefer to the Kronos faders on balance), high trigger for the organ, and possibly its own unique sound set which appears to include some sounds that are not in the Kronos despite the same engines.

 

Back to the organ control, even as faders/drawbars go, the Kronos implementation is weak because there's no way to hit a button and have the organ sound instantly reflect the positions of the faders, something most clonewheels support. So on the Kronos, essentially, the faders never match the sound unless you take the time to move all 9 faders manually (same problem I have with the VR-09); whereas on the Vox, the LED strips always match the sound. This is part of what tips the balance for me of preferring the Vox LEDs to the Kronos faders. All in all, for organ manipulation, I'd prefer the Vox... though the Kronos has a significant organ advantage in tweakability, and of course in its indepdendent selection of all the percussion and CV parameters. Considering that the underlying CX3 engine is ostensibly the same, it would be great if a Kronos owner could customize his organ sounds on the Kronos, and import those particular CX3 sounds into his Vox!

[Adan]

The lack of any ability to turn percussion or C/V on and off is one of the most bizarre and frustrating aspects of the Vox. For me, it was a major reason why the Vox I owned ended up getting used primarily as a lightweight bottom board. I didn't have a problem with the B3 emulation itself. It wasn't among the best B3 clones, but it from a sound perspective it was good enough for me. For C/V, I usually "set and forget" to C3. Percussion is a different story. Having to switch presets to go from percussion to none is a non-starter for me.

 

I sometimes miss the Vox, and occasionally think about picking one up used or deeply discounted (they're all discounted, but I mean more than that). For me, the deal killer is how loud the key mechanism is, which is a function mostly of the hollow-ish aluminum build. I simply couldn't play it anywhere in the house without my wife throwing daggers. This won't be a problem for most people, but it was a major source of domestic strife Now I have the YC61, which is quiet as a moose.

[AnotherScott]

The lack of any ability to turn percussion or C/V on and off is one of the most bizarre and frustrating aspects of the Vox...Having to switch presets to go from percussion to none is a non-starter for me.

You don't have to switch presets to go from percussion to none... unless my memory is playing tricks, there's a dedicated percussion on/off button which always works no matter what preset you're on, same with CV. The problem isn't that you can't turn percussion on and off at will, it's that you're limited in what percussion settings are available at any time. If the percussion built into the preset is, say, "3rd percussion, long decay, normal volume" then all you can do within that preset is turn THAT percussion on or off. If you want 2nd percussion, or short decay, whatever, you have to hope there's a preset that has those percussion attributes, and then switch to that preset in order to get the percussion you want, perhaps losing other attributes you liked about the preset you were on.

[Adan]

The lack of any ability to turn percussion or C/V on and off is one of the most bizarre and frustrating aspects of the Vox...Having to switch presets to go from percussion to none is a non-starter for me.

You don't have to switch presets to go from percussion to none... unless my memory is playing tricks, there's a dedicated percussion on/off button which always works no matter what preset you're on, same with CV. The problem isn't that you can't turn percussion on and off at will, it's that you're limited in what percussion settings are available at any time. If the percussion built into the preset is, say, "3rd percussion, long decay, normal volume" then all you can do within that preset is turn THAT percussion on or off. If you want 2nd percussion, or short decay, whatever, you have to hope there's a preset that has those percussion attributes, and then switch to that preset in order to get the percussion you want, perhaps losing other attributes you liked about the preset you were on.

 

Yes, that sounds right. I stand corrected. Still, a significant problem for me.

[Doerfler]

excellent review, Scott.

[AnotherScott]

Still, a significant problem for me.

Yeah, it's unfortunate.

 

The YC would be a better competitor to me if it came in a 7x. If I want a single board to cover my piano/EP along with the organ/synth, 61 will feel constrained.

 

How do you compare the YC61 action to the Vox?

 

Off-hand, are there certain kinds of sounds you feel are better on one than the other?

[brenner13]

The big Vox almost got my cash on several occasions, but the sales and my available funds never quite matched up at the same time.

Yep, I"d have a YC right now if it would have been released with seventy-some keys.

Now I"ve got my sites on a PC4-7 but it doesn"t have the cool ribbon connector and the 4"s no longer have the breath controller input.

Perhaps a lightly used PC3-7 for dirt cheap will come available soon?

There"re ALWAYS some compromises...SHEESH!

[AnotherScott]

Now I"ve got my sites on a PC4-7 but it doesn"t have the cool ribbon connector and the 4"s no longer have the breath controller input.

According to the Kurz web site, PC4-7 has the ribbon controller input (just as the PC4 does). For breath controller, maybe this will do the trick...

 

http://midisolutions.com/prodbth.htm

[niacin]

Following in Fleer's footsteps I bought a second Vox 73 to put on top of the first. The more time I spend with the synths the more excited I get about the sounds I can pull, and the LED strips, although as Scott said not great for live tweaking, are perfect for exploring the synth patches at home. I play a lot of LH bass and now have some insanely fat and sloppy bass synth sounds to alternate with Hammond bass (usually split with a wurli, I rarely use the CX3 except for bass for reasons already mentioned). Took it to a jam last weekend having set up a synth bass/rhodes split and it got a big thumbs up. Bottom end for days.

[Fleer]

Congrats, niacin! Now you have to get that third one (61) for just fooling around

Did you get the dedicated stand, by the way? It"s ideal for those two 73s and allows for tilting them the way you like.

[niacin]

Yeh, now I have two stands, lol. They're well made but a pita to set up and pack down, and you can't get the boards real close, so I'll be using my modded K&M 18880 and possibly make my own stand down the track so the front of the top board sits directly on the lower one. I grew up playing organ so I'm most comfortable with the manuals close together.

[brenner13]

Now I"ve got my sites on a PC4-7 but it doesn"t have the cool ribbon connector and the 4"s no longer have the breath controller input.

According to the Kurz web site, PC4-7 has the ribbon controller input (just as the PC4 does). For breath controller, maybe this will do the trick...

 

http://midisolutions.com/prodbth.htm

 

Ah, so it DOES have the ribbon input. Thank you AnotherScott for squashing the mis-information, one again!

 

Back when we still had gigs, once in a while I"d tip the Vortex up and pretend to blow into the top of it during pseudosax solos. Sometimes it got a couple of laughs, but too often I"d get questions at break asking how I got a breath controller inside my controller and would have to explain my antics.

 

Totally forgot about MIDI Solutions stuff. Need to figure out how to program the patch so that no sound happens until it receives the breath MIDI trigger and make it dynamic from 0 to 127. Hmmm...got some learnin" to do. Excited to have a new project, now!

 

Whoops, sorry to railroad the conversation. The Vox is still on the short list for the quest to replace the blasted Rolands still in my collection.

[Adan]

Still, a significant problem for me.

 

How do you compare the YC61 action to the Vox?

 

Off-hand, are there certain kinds of sounds you feel are better on one than the other?

 

Regarding comparing actions between Vox and YC61, these are both really good semi-weighted actions. As good as it gets for semi-weighted. The action on the YC is as quiet as any I've played, while the Vox is maybe the noisiest. As I said above, this won't matter for most folks, but for me it's pretty important.

 

As for comparing sounds, I'm a big fan of the EPs on the Vox, both how they sound and how they feel under the fingers. YC EPs are just adequate. I love the YC Hammond emulation except for the subpar leslie. A vent can provide the missing piece for the YC, whereas the flaws in the Vox's Hammond emulation are more ingrained.

 

From a 10,000 foot level, I'd say the Vox is more like a real instrument in being inspiring and musical but with limited versatility. The YC by contrast is a versatile gigging workhorse with "good enough" sounds across much of the spectrum and can easily integrate missing pieces through IOS connectivity.

[niacin]

I've mentioned before that the Dynamics knob and the action make the Vox about the most playable non-hammer action I've seen for piano sounds. The shortcoming here is that I am not particularly enamored of the acoustic piano sounds themselves.

 

I wasn't enamoured with the original selection, but I love the new 'small grand piano' (Upright#8) that came with the OS2.0 update

[AnotherScott]

The action on the YC is as quiet as any I've played, while the Vox is maybe the noisiest.

Interesting. The video at

(2:40 to 3:15) also talks about how quiet the YC is. Though as it happens, I didn't find the Vox noisy. But as you say, sometimes these things are more noticeable to others in the house than to the player.

 

Allowing for the fact that semi-weighteds are never ideal for piano playing, did you feel that either of these actions felt noticeably better than the other for piano?

 

love the YC Hammond emulation except for the subpar leslie. A vent can provide the missing piece for the YC, whereas the flaws in the Vox's Hammond emulation are more ingrained.

...and neither lets you pan sounds so you could put a Vent on your organ sound without also simultaneously putting it on any split or layered sounds, or without having to remember to switch it out when you change from organ to some other sound. Grrrr. (Someone did npoint out you could use the Pan effect on the YC to do this, except the pan positions are not remembered on preset recall, so it doesn't really solve these problems.)

 

From a 10,000 foot level, I'd say the Vox is more like a real instrument in being inspiring and musical but with limited versatility.

This "real instrument" feel is something that intrigues me, it's what I always liked about the SV1. And I'm not sure what creates it. Part of it may be the connection between the sound and the action... where in the key travel a sound is triggered, what the landing feels like, the old "FTEC." But also sonically, I've noticed that sometimes it seems like the instrument is making the sound, and other times it seems like you're playing a recording of an instrument, and I'm not sure what is responsible for that. Is it also an illusion based on the action? Or is it really something in the sound? It's almost like a sense of the instrument being closer or further away, yet not due to any kind of noticable reverb or other obvious sonic indication of space. Does that describe your sense here of the Vox vs the YC61, and does it depend on the sounds you're playing?

[nadroj]

The VOX really intrigues me. Before COVID my main band had become our ska funk band, which did a lot of songs involving VOX organ. My Electro is starting to show signs of age (keys, sensors etc becoming unruly) after years of heavy, heavy gigging. Truth be told if I ever get the cash to buy a new keyboard outright I'll probably go with the Nord Stage 3 Compact, but the Vox has caught my eye a few times. I think I'd probably need to play one before making a judgement call.

 

Does it feel ROMplery?

[AnotherScott]

if I ever get the cash to buy a new keyboard outright I'll probably go with the Nord Stage 3 Compact, but the Vox has caught my eye a few times.

While the Nord has a ton of advantages over the Vox, I definitely prefer some things about the Vox... at least the action and the EPs, and the presence of velocity layers on the non-piano/non-organ sounds (like horns).

[Doerfler]

While the Nord has a ton of advantages over the Vox, I definitely prefer some things about the Vox... at least the action and the EPs, and the presence of velocity layers on the non-piano/non-organ sounds (like horns).

 

In addition, to my ears anyway, the clavinets on the Vox are the best. Kronos soundset with, (IMO), more preferable action

[Fleer]

The VOX really intrigues me. Before COVID my main band had become our ska funk band, which did a lot of songs involving VOX organ. My Electro is starting to show signs of age (keys, sensors etc becoming unruly) after years of heavy, heavy gigging. Truth be told if I ever get the cash to buy a new keyboard outright I'll probably go with the Nord Stage 3 Compact, but the Vox has caught my eye a few times. I think I'd probably need to play one before making a judgement call.

 

Does it feel ROMplery?

Quite the contrary. A/Scott has it right when describing the Vox as an 'instrument'. It"s my first keyboard in a long while that actually feels like an instrument of its own. As for the action, not noisy at all in my experience. It"s my preferred action, albeit quite personal of course. But that dynamics knob does wonders for personalization.

[AnotherScott]

2 questions for a Vox owner:

 

1. Let's say you save a scene that has only an Organ sound active. Can that scene also include a silent but specific piano sound, and EP sound, and key/layer sound, from which you could subsequently select from within the same scene? IOW, recalling the scene would immediately give you an organ sound, but the same scene is also programmed so that hitting the Piano button will give you, say, an Upright, EP will give you Reed piano #6, and Key/Layer will give you its Tape Strings sound, if that's how you set it up?

 

2. Has anyone tried running B-3X or some other external drawbar organ from it? When you recall a preset that has drawbar settings, does it send the individual drawbar settings out over MIDI? My guess is it would only send out a Program Change command, but I was surprised to find that the Dexibell J7 and (based on reports from Niacin and EscapeRocks) the Yamaha YC61 actually send the individual drawbar CCs, so I'm wondering whether the Vox might do that as well.

[niacin]

1. yes 2. don't know

[AnotherScott]

1. yes

Cool. That's how the Nord Stage works, too. So even just 4 scenes, then, gives you quick access to 16 sounds (4 organ sounds, 4 piano sounds, 4 EP sounds, 4 other sounds), i.e. if you're someone who typically plays just one sound at a time.

[Fleer]

A/Scott. It"s time. Get yourself a Vox.

[niacin]

1. yes

Cool. That's how the Nord Stage works, too. So even just 4 scenes, then, gives you quick access to 16 sounds (4 organ sounds, 4 piano sounds, 4 EP sounds, 4 other sounds), i.e. if you're someone who typically plays just one sound at a time.

 

yes, but it also saves the split point, so you can pull layers and splits on the fly too without having to press too many buttons, I've used this quite a bit.

[uhoh7]

I studied both the VOX and the YC61, which have tons of attractive aspects. Neither can send aftertouch. The Vox has no modwheel.

 

These are fundamental. You may rarely use them, but when you have a use, you are dead in the water. Or the player who buys it from you is.

 

These are not expensive features at this point. For a very small savings they are leaving them out...who will notice?

[AnotherScott]

I studied both the VOX and the YC61, which have tons of attractive aspects. Neither can send aftertouch. The Vox has no modwheel. These are fundamental.

I think the only clonewheel keyboard with waterfall keys and aftertouch is the Nord Stage 3.

 

If you sacrifice the waterfall (but stick with an organ-friendly action) and are flexible about what your "drawbars" look like (as you'd have to be for the Vox anyway), you could also consider:

 

* Numa Compact 2X (short-throw sliders)

* forthcoming Kurzweil PC4-7 (has assignable out to easily add a Vent)

* Korg PA1000 (on-screen touch drawbars, can only move one at a time, and they do not send/receive standard MIDI CC)

* Korg PA4X (probably same issues as PA1000, except it adds the assignable out so it is probably easy to add a Vent)

* Korg Kronos 61 (has assignable out to easily add a Vent)

* Yamaha Tyros (I don't know much about it)

 

Or you could pair your Vox/YC with a board that has AT.

 

I'm really looking forward to finding out what the PC4-7 action feels like. If by some miracle it feels as good as a Vox...

[niacin]

I studied both the VOX and the YC61, which have tons of attractive aspects. Neither can send aftertouch. The Vox has no modwheel.

 

These are fundamental.

 

Both keyboards are in the first instance marketed as tonewheel or transistor organ simulations, so no they're not fundamental: an organ has neither aftertouch nor pitch/mod wheels. Maybe you're just not the target market? And if you think you are, well there's the Nord Stage Compact, for nearly twice the money.

[Josh Paxton]

Maybe you're just not the target market? And if you think you are, well there's the Nord Stage Compact, for nearly twice the money.

 

It's funny how often the phrase "There's always Nord for nearly twice the money" comes up in conversations about gear conundrums.

[stoken6]

Maybe you're just not the target market? And if you think you are, well there's the Nord Stage Compact, for nearly twice the money.

 

It's funny how often the phrase "There's always Nord for nearly twice the money" comes up in conversations about gear conundrums.

 

Annoying, isn't it... I was thinking about how Nord gets the little niggles right: assignable outs (and bypassable rotary sim), assignable pedal (sustain vs rotary speed, or both), internal PSU, aftertouch, wheels, expression pedal input, high trigger, external MIDI control... Some of these do impact the cost, some have minimal impact but are sadly overlooked in the design of other boards.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

Korg just did a livestream demo on the board, you can see it at