Theory Question - Senior Blues

[David Loving]

https://youtu.be/QK7EYhGQsn4

 

Note how the change goes from Eb min to B. What's that change called? Happens in Cantaloupe Island, Fm toC#. - 2 steps down to substitute for IV.

[David R]

It's bVI7 which is a very common subdominant quality in minor tunes.

[David Loving]

Aside from it sounding great why is it used? What's the theory-logic for replacing IV?

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

It's called the flat 6. Comin Home uses it too. Note it's not just a flat 6 triad, the primary voicing is a B9b5 but it's jazz, there's a lot of ways to play that.

 

Bob

[David R]

In minor, bVi is part of the "subdominant" function - as is IV, as is II. In a minor blues (Mr. PC for example) it often replaces II before the dominant (V).

 

Think of "Hit The Road Jack" (without the bVII passing chord) or the bridge of At Last (E7 / F7 E7 | Am). The bVI is everywhere in minor harmony. Just another option.

[Steve Nathan]

Aside from it sounding great why is it used? What's the theory-logic for replacing IV?

 

Aside from it sounding great

Seriously??

That's exactly why it's used. Theory-logic has nothing to do with it.

[David Loving]

I was just interested in what the theory aspect of it is.

[Dave Ferris]

Used on "This masquerade" and the bridge to "Speak low", "Ain't Misbehavin'" "Cheek to Cheek" and "Willow weep for me". Just five examples that immediately spring to mind.

 

I tend to focus less on the theory aspect of things and look for examples of a common particular movement in other tunes. My ear and eyes get used to that sound or movement. I know instantly - looking at it on a chart or hearing it played - what to play on it. Be it single note fill, or solo, or chord voicing.

 

There's a place for theory and analysis but I always strive to go with what sounds good over any theoretical considerations.

 

Also it's not at all unusual to hear that second chord - Db coming from Fm or B from Ebm - played as a Major 7 as opposed to a Dominant 7. That totally changes how I'm going to treat that movement - both on solo or voicing/comping.

[marino]

Nobody has mentioned that it contains the "blue note" flat fifth of the key?

[moj]

In Eb minor the B (Cb) is the VI chord. The B7 (Cb7) is the secondary dominant chord = V7/iiø (Fm7b5) or III7/IV.

 

I think of it as "delayer" of the dominant 7th. BB King's "The Thrill Is Gone", is an example where the VI resolves to the V7. In "Senor Blues" it resolves to the tonic.

 

IMO, the B is the leading-tone "pulling" back to the Bb and the Eb, Gb are the 1st and 3rd of the Eb minor chord. Hence, the strong, intuitive feeling that it sounds OK to skip over the dominant 7th and resolve to the tonic.

[MathOfInsects]

Nobody has mentioned that it contains the "blue note" flat fifth of the key?

 

....coupled with the upper structure of the "real" chord for that spot, the minor IV.

[BbAltered]

I'm not sure about Senior Blues, but on Cantaloupe Island, the bVI7 chord is followed by a vi7 chord, not a dominant V.

 

In blues, it is common to hear V7 - bVI7 - V7. But I - bVI7 - vi7 is very unusual. In Cantaloupe Island, the bVI7 chord is not functioning as some sort of adjunct of the V7.

 

In modern jazz theory, any dominant 7th chord has 4 substitutions: 1) a dom.7 built on the root; 2) a dom. 7 built on the bII; a dom. 7 built on the bV; and a dom. 7 built on the VI. For Bb7, these substitutions become Bb7, Db7, E7, and G7 - all acceptable substitutions of a Bb7 chord (and these substitutions all work with either the root (Bb) or the tritone (E) in the bass!). (I've heard some musos call this the "Circle of Fifths quarter hour substitutions".)

 

So, in Cantaloupe Island, the Db7 chord can be thought of as functioning like a IV7. But it is not really a substitution: the composer made the Db the bass note of that chord.

 

My thinking abut Cantaloupe Island is it was written this way to be a unique and different sound. Mr. Hancock did it that way because it sounded cool, not to adhere to our notions of what is usual.

[David Loving]

It sounds way cool. Got me looking for it all the time. I recently saw the Taj-Mo tour. They opened with Senor Blues. Super performance that got me into this. The modal turn around in Cantaloupe Island is genius.

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

I always loved Taj Mahal's version of that song.

[Sven Golly]

It's Señor Blues; the subject line of this thread had me thinking someone didn't get their discount at Denny's for breakfast.

[David Loving]

OOooppps!

[ewall08530]

It can be helpful to learn WHY it sounds great. And easier to apply elsewhere if you recognize the theory behind it.

[Bobadohshe]

It's Señor Blues; the subject line of this thread had me thinking someone didn't get their discount at Denny's for breakfast.

 

 

Haha

[drawback]

It's Señor Blues; the subject line of this thread had me thinking someone didn't get their discount at Denny's for breakfast.

 

I know! I was wondering if it was yet another parody thread based on Old Folks Boogie.

[David Loving]

I had a senior moment when I posted this thread

[jerrythek]

It's Señor Blues; the subject line of this thread had me thinking someone didn't get their discount at Denny's for breakfast.

 

Thanks, Sven. That's been bugging me too. And everyone was just picking up on it...

 

Jerry

[jerrythek]

It can be helpful to learn WHY it sounds great. And easier to apply elsewhere if you recognize the theory behind it.

Sometimes the theory of something is not based on functional harmony, or the concept of harmonic resolution. It's just a cool color.... I use this type of chordal movement a lot in my playing/reharmonization, perhaps too much. For me the theory is just moving down a major third from the current chord, most often after a minor chord. The flat sixth chord can be a sus4 chord, a dominant seventh, even a major seventh (with a flat five!), they all have their application.

 

Depending on the melody note, I will end a tune with a singer with this movement, adding an unexpected color to the end of a song.

 

Sometimes harmony is just a color, a wonderful color. Try explaining the theory for a lot of Wayne Shorter tunes... it falls apart pretty fast.

 

Jerry

[Dave Ferris]

It can be helpful to learn WHY it sounds great. And easier to apply elsewhere if you recognize the theory behind it.

Sometimes the theory of something is not based on functional harmony, or the concept of harmonic resolution. It's just a cool color....

 

Yep.

 

The flat sixth chord can be a sus4 chord, a dominant seventh, even a major seventh (with a flat five!), they all have their application.

 

Depending on the melody note, I will end a tune with a singer with this movement, adding an unexpected color to the end of a song.

 

Ending a tune, say we're in the original key mentioned of Ebm or even Eb maj. , the B Maj.7 b5 works particularly well as a surprise ending chord. Especially if the melody note ends on an F. A pair of possible voicings for the B Maj7b5:

 

LH- B(2) Gb(2)

RH- Eb(3) Ab, Db, F

 

or more of a closed cluster sound (don't try on a Rhodes )

LH- B(3) Eb(3)

RH- Ab (4) Bb Db, F

 

Here the B chord is with a Dominant 7 #9b5 sound. A favorite chord of Hank Jones.

 

LH- B(2) Gb

RH- Eb (3) A D F

 

Also being on the subject of surprise ending chords, a Flat 5 up from the Root, Minor 11 chord works very well too if the last melody note is a Maj.7. Staying in the key of Eb, a couple possibilities on an Am11 chord.

 

The first is the infamous "Kenny Barron chord".

 

LH- A (3) E B

RH- C G D

 

or more of a sound with a triad over Minor tenth shell voicing:

LH- A (3) E C

RH- D(4) G B D

 

And yes when Wayne started composing, he threw out the book in regards to normal functional harmonic movement.