Replace Tyros with Ableton!

[I-missRichardTee]

The Tyros is a one man band type arranger board. mine retailed for an outrageous $5000 4 or 5 years ago.

It is appalling because it is such a flimsy keyboard.

but the drum beats at your fingertips.. including a number of buttons to make fills- variations- entirely different beats, on the fly, is the big attraction.

 

OT of my own topic I wish it were feasible to sue Yamaha for making these 9 volume sliders that might be OK on a Mattel toy music instrument.

 

The basses irritate me, strings are meh, the action is so plastic

 

So I am asking an outlandish question.

Can Ableton be set up for on the fly, ergonomically smart navigation, WHILE playing a real keyboard ( Montage or new Roland rd 2000 )

 

With fingers on a keyboard, it will be tough to duplicate the tyros ergonomics

Maybe pedals for Ableton ?

 

 

[Nathanael_I]

It will be tough. Ableton is massively flexible. Far more so than the Tyros. But is also a completely different tool. It does not have auto-accompaniment grooves, logic, or any of that. You might try Band-in-a-Box to replace the Tyros. You can ultimately make whatever control arrangements you want around Ableton - there are tons of MIDI controllers you can patch together. But you are going to have to figure it out, program it, and then build every song the way you want it in Ableton. You will have access to any VST sounds you have or can afford.

[DulceLabs.com]

Have you looked at the Pa4X? Good article from our own JerryTheK: http://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/1183/top-end-arrangers-reviewed-korg-pa4x-and-yamaha-tyros5/55871

[I-missRichardTee]

It will be tough. Ableton is massively flexible. Far more so than the Tyros. But is also a completely different tool. It does not have auto-accompaniment grooves, logic, or any of that. You might try Band-in-a-Box to replace the Tyros. You can ultimately make whatever control arrangements you want around Ableton - there are tons of MIDI controllers you can patch together. But you are going to have to figure it out, program it, and then build every song the way you want it in Ableton. You will have access to any VST sounds you have or can afford.

 

But, what is ergonomic aspect.. where tire meets the road- where my fingers, feet, hands, have to do triggering as I am playing a keyboard! That is the rub, as they used to say.

Thanks

[Synthoid]

The Tyros is a one man band type arranger board. mine retailed for an outrageous $5000 4 or 5 years ago.

It is appalling because it is such a flimsy keyboard.

 

Considering its price, I guess the Tyros is quite a high-profit item for Yamaha.

[Sven Golly]

IMRT, I'm going to try to say this with the utmost of tact....

 

Ah, screw it, I'm just going to say it. Based on your posting history, and the challenges you face with even the simplest of tech, you have a less than zero chance of making Ableton work for you, by yourself, without paying someone to be your tech. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

 

 

[jpapas]

You can give varranger a try; it looks like a good option. Though a bit pricey it's nothing compared to what a tyros costs.

[jpapas]

oops forgot the link

 

https://www.varranger.com/

[Jazzmammal]

T, the big question is do you want full control over the song arrangement while you're playing? If not you can create or buy good backing tracks and just play along to them. If you want full control then Band in a Box won't work for you because making real time changes while you're playing is very limited.

 

Vaarranger looks interesting, never heard of it before. I see it's 349 Euro but it apparently uses Yamaha, Ketron and Roland styles? I know you have an iPad if you can make variation and other changes by touching the screen, that could work.

 

Bob

[montunoman]

If the Tyros keys aren't to your liking why not use a Roland or Ketron arranger module along with your favorite digital piano?

[I-missRichardTee]

T, the big question is do you want full control over the song arrangement while you're playing?.......making real time changes while you're playing is very limited.

Bob

 

Yes and No, fellow forumite. Yes and No.

I figure, as Sven sarcastically but truthfully points out, I am a slow study in computers. However, my IQ is above average ( not genius, but high enough ) high enough that if Sven eg, would drop his occasionally funny jester role, and maybe help me gradually, incrementally learn just enough to achieve the real time goals I have, this could be of use to many here.

namely using Ableton as an ultimate drummer for Live in more traditional styles -jazz, funk fusion, odd times salsa etc.

I am telling you guys- the right drum grooves can really propel your creativity!

 

I will get back with details if this thread is taken semi seriously.

But rough draft- ( begin with end in mind )

I do not use tyros the way it was designed... and semi semi pro players ( retirees ) will

plays a simple chord in left hand, and the darned AI plays accompaniments!! That idea is a bit undignified for me, and likely many here. However I do use ( and recommend to many here ) the MIDI drum tracks in tyros or some other drum track methodology.

But tyros bugs me for many reasons. SO Ableton or a similar app is on the table. but mainly triggering non computer hogging MIDI drums only- at least for the first year or so.

 

So let's talk about drum track manipulations while playing your song.

How would it look?

I could set up various preset drum variations in sequential order 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 etc. So a foot pedal just mindlessly goes through the numbers, each representing a modification of the beat/ groove or whatever you choose to call them.

 

Or i could make changes with my fingers, by reaching over and hitting pre programmed buttons.

 

Or I could just play a whole MIDI drum track from start to finish.

 

i have contemplated doing this for an embarrassing amount of time ( procrastination anyone )

A drum groove can get to be, well, monotonous. So changes kind of need to happen.

 

All the above is preprogrammed stuff for drums... but then there are things that Ableton can do, that are unexpected modifications. That is a roll of the dice.

 

Anyway I would love to chat about this old fantasy of replacing a drummer with an "intelligent drum machine".

 

Sven, what do you say? You may continue to make me the butt of your sophomoric humor... I actually have gotten over being irritated by it.

You have a sharp wit, which hints that you may, just may, have sharpness that could create a killer drum machine...! Come on Sven, apply that brain to something we can all use.

 

Offer stands. We can negotiate if interested.

but I confess you do amuse me, when I am bit bored

[I-missRichardTee]

If the Tyros keys aren't to your liking why not use a Roland or Ketron arranger module along with your favorite digital piano?

 

Too expensive to sell Tyros and replace, and not be sure it is better.

 

I am thinking dump Tyros and use Ableton and then get a real board

CP4 Rd 2000 Nord

[drawback]

I thought you were getting a Montage or somthin' ?

 

Won't that just do all you want to do? Or are you just gassing for a newer arranger board? Somehow I don't think more MIDI/MBP/controller/pedal hookups are gonna make your live gig easier. Sure wouldn't for me.

 

Have you checked out that article DulceLabs linked?

[ProfD]

The new DPs play WAV files. That is your drummer and any other muso on a track.

 

The RD2000 is capable of an 8-way split. Along with playing WAV files, it is perfect for those OMB (one man band) gigs.

[johnchop]

Ableton Live 9 has a free trial, so there's nothing stopping you from trying it.

 

Ableton itself is not going to be the gateway to "intelligent drum tracks". It will just act as a host for some VST -- EZDrummer 2? -- that may do what you want.

 

But then... why not a good ol' Boss drum machine?

 

 

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

The new DPs play WAV files. That is your drummer and any other muso on a track.

 

The RD2000 is capable of an 8-way split. Along with playing WAV files, it is perfect for those OMB (one man band) gigs.

 

So where do I find those live drum tracks for eg rd 2000?

 

The thing about the (tyros= love hate for me ) tyros is the wide ranging drum styles with 4 variations and fills. It is a huge labor / time saving idea.

A mere drum machine does not have this kind of depth for drum grooves... no way. And wide range of drum grooves, and variations at your fingertips is the goal.

Another player in town turned me on to it. But he uses a second board, for actual keyboard playing. Carrying 2 boards is something I have never done.

I am considering it dragging 2 boards... but in the meantime the darned tyros is acting up with intermittent issues!

 

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Ableton Live 9 has a free trial, so there's nothing stopping you from trying it.

 

Question.. I have a MBP 2.53GHz Intel Core 2 Duo in w 500GB SSD HD & 8GB ram

The Mac cannot upgrade to the latest iOS Sierra

 

I am concerned about stablity in relation to the hardware I have joined with Ableton 9. I do not understand matching hardware with IOS with whatever version of Ableton. In other words, would a much earlier version of Ableton be advisable?

 

I just bought a new iPad , i wish the iPad Pro could handle Ableton!

 

[johnchop]

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209773025-Live-9-minimum-system-requirements

 

Live 9 should run fine, but your choice of virtual instruments will have to be compatible as well.

 

I would echo Sven's message that trying to work with a computer-based setup live without a really strong foundation in computer-based music production will be... well, a learning experience, at the very least.

 

I'm not clear on why you are bringing iOS into the picture though. Did you mean macOS (OS X)?

[I-missRichardTee]

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209773025-Live-9-minimum-system-requirements

 

Live 9 should run fine, but your choice of virtual instruments will have to be compatible as well.

 

I would echo Sven's message that trying to work with a computer-based setup live without a really strong foundation in computer-based music production will be... well, a learning experience, at the very least.

 

I'm not clear on why you are bringing iOS into the picture though. Did you mean macOS (OS X)?

 

No, I meant my new iPad Pro!! Obviously I am just as slow as can be with computers!

 

I was thinking if it were not cost prohibitive, I could pay someone to guide me through the process of setting up Ableton.

 

[johnchop]

Well, you've lost me.

 

Ableton Live runs on macOS (a MacBook/MacBook Pro, iMac, Mac Mini, or Mac Pro).

 

iOS doesn't enter into it, unless you want to use your iPad as a control surface to trigger stuff in Ableton. But given where you are now, that's a moonshot

 

But as others are saying here, Ableton is likely not the magic bullet you are looking for.

[Sven Golly]

...never mind.

[CEB]

Abelton is goofier than Hell. I expected it to be an easier platform than my Cubase home rig that I could implement for live use. I killed that idea pretty quick. It would have take more time than I wanted to invest in it. I thought there was something wrong with me because there are 8 year old kids making music with Abelton. But an 8 year old has no preconceived mental habits on how software is supposed to work.

 

Kinda of when first started OOP programming in C++ or Expert Systems programming in LISP and Prolog after being focused on procedural programming my whole life. You need to start over with a new way of thinking. I still think linearly like tape.

[Sven Golly]

But an 8 year old has no preconceived mental habits on how software is supposed to work.

 

Well, that's a whole other discussion around HCI, but I'd argue that if 8 year olds can work the software, then the problem isn't with the software...

 

You need to start over with a new way of thinking. I still think linearly like tape.

 

My point; you (and many of us) are limited by the paradigm of linear tape, whereas someone without that preconception wouldn't have that issue. Someone that approaches music as blocks or sections (think jazz's AABA structure, for example) but who hadn't done a lot of recording would probably find the concept of Ableton pretty straightforward.

 

Also, the first key to learning Ableton's Session View, for those more focused on the linear approach... put your left ear on your left shoulder.

 

[johnchop]

...never mind.

 

I know

[roygBiv]

Hey ImRT

 

Some thoughts and suggestions -

 

1. CEB is right - Ableton is goofy, I don't think you will get on with it very well, I certainly didn't, like he said, if you grew up with tape, its whole non-linearity takes a while to "grok".

 

2. You should seriously consider trying some of the various drum/beat apps for the iPad. They are waaaaaay cheaper than buying software like Ableton. Usually run $5-20, thus you can try a lot to see if one fits your work-flow. If you find one you really like, you can even get a MIDI controller with pads to trigger them, but you wouldn't have to invest that much into you find one you like.

- Apps to consider include BeatHawk, DM1, Beatmaker 2, DrumJam, etc. There are many out there, do some googling and you'll find YouTube videos that will give you a sense of what they can do.

 

3. Drum machine hardware - you might be able to do what you want with an MPC type beat maker, or a simple drum machine that lets you switch between different patterns by simply triggering a different pad.

 

4. Maybe best option - take your Tyros to a Music store. Try to avoid the long haired metal salesperson, instead find one that is more into HipHop/making beats. Show them what you are currently doing with the Tyros, and ask if there is a software/hardware option that could do something similar. I think an actual demonstration would be enough to trigger their brains, and they might come up with some pretty creative solutions. Broadly speaking, the HipHop guys are often a lot less uptight about the equipment, as long as it sounds good. They might snicker at first when they see the Tyros, but as soon as you start laying down the jams they will get what you are trying to do.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[I-missRichardTee]

Hey ImRT

 

Some thoughts and suggestions -

 

1. CEB is right - Ableton is goofy, I don't think you will get on with it very well, I certainly didn't, like he said, if you grew up with tape, its whole non-linearity takes a while to "grok".

 

2. You should seriously consider trying some of the various drum/beat apps for the iPad. They are waaaaaay cheaper than buying software like Ableton. Usually run $5-20, thus you can try a lot to see if one fits your work-flow. If you find one you really like, you can even get a MIDI controller with pads to trigger them, but you wouldn't have to invest that much into you find one you like.

- Apps to consider include BeatHawk, DM1, Beatmaker 2, DrumJam, etc. There are many out there, do some googling and you'll find YouTube videos that will give you a sense of what they can do.

 

3. Drum machine hardware - you might be able to do what you want with an MPC type beat maker, or a simple drum machine that lets you switch between different patterns by simply triggering a different pad.

 

4. Maybe best option - take your Tyros to a Music store. Try to avoid the long haired metal salesperson, instead find one that is more into HipHop/making beats. Show them what you are currently doing with the Tyros, and ask if there is a software/hardware option that could do something similar. I think an actual demonstration would be enough to trigger their brains, and they might come up with some pretty creative solutions. Broadly speaking, the HipHop guys are often a lot less uptight about the equipment, as long as it sounds good. They might snicker at first when they see the Tyros, but as soon as you start laying down the jams they will get what you are trying to do.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts.

 

Yeah, I am a bit out of my depth with Ableton.

So it is back to Tyros.

 

Actually the Tyros is over kill. The practical reasons I recommend the mid level "plastic boxes" by Yamaha psr series, are

-Lightweight

-huge number of useful beats

-The RELATEDNESS of the variations!

-The drum beats are right near the keyboard, ergonomically smart.

-the self contained lightweight speakers add realism to an otherwise cheap feeling board.

 

-The fact ( my opinion ) that this tool ( psr series ) is becoming more necessary to compete in today's music world.

 

In another thread FunkKeyStuff asks "what songs are modern and adaptable to being played on a piano"

I say, add a modern beat, and a great deal of musical ( the Challenge of playing a melody with too simple chords, while all sorts of textures are needed, not to mention rhythmic themes ) issues take care of themselves. The music of the present day HAS meaning. we just have to treat it differently than in previous generation pop, or previous previous music of pre 1960's.

 

Finally.. though I have a love hate relationship with a plastic keyboard that plays a song accompaniment while you play a simple triad- it took me 5 years of occasional gigs on it where no drummer was present.. to finally ( 3 months ago ) play my butt off with this thing. 5 years of getting used to playing with a what I still tend to think of as "stiff, or rigid metronomic beat" and finally I hit pay dirt.

The next time I played it, I did not play that well again, and have not hit that sweet spot since then.. but the fact that I swung my behind off just one time.. tells me this thing has a future in music.

 

BTW I know from a reliable source that genius Stevie Wonder owns TWO Tyros's.

This is NOT a paid advertisement for yamaha... hardly.

 

And to roygbiv who ennumerated all these suggestions, thank you very much.

Question... as a back up to the tyros or psr boards.. I would like to try all these iPad apps. A drummer suggested one - but though the beats were impressive the problem with them is lack of variations of the same beat. The more variations the better.

I mean more variations from a musicians point of view, not a mindless soulless computer.

 

If a particular app comes to mind whose forte is several variations of a useful beat... THAT app is going to be in my iPad.

Thank you again.

[Rally]

It sounds as though you have abandoned the Ableton approach and will remain with Tyros. I think you can accomplish your goals with Ableton but your approach of using a keyboard makes it difficult, IMO. If you decide to revisit the idea, consider employing an Ableton Push or Akai APC 40 for you Ableton loops. Basically, you would be a DJ for your non keyboard parts.

 

If you want to learn about Ableton and Push in order to determine if it is a possible fit, I would invest $30 in a one month subscription to Lynda.com, the tutorials on the site are better than 99% of what is on Youtube. Spend several hours watching and you will learn what is involved, then you will be in a position to make an informed decision on how best to proceed.

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

T, you're missing a very big point concerning drum machines or software. You can create as many variations as you want and simply assign them to buttons on a controller just like what you can do with the Tyros. Here's some from Sweetwater:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/c513--61-key_MIDI_Controllers

 

I'm not recommending one over the other but notice that most of these have 8 or 16 pads. Those pads are velocity sensitive so they can trigger anything including drum pattern variations but they could also trigger instrument variations too like a bass line. You could have a different bass line layered with a different drum variation and virtually recreate what the Tyros can do.

 

There are literally thousands of drum and bass patterns available online from many different companies for just this purpose. They are in any style you want from rock, jazz, hip hop, modern pop, whatever. They are all basically 2 to 4 bar pattern loops and they include fills too. All you do is assign those to the pads as part of any one song setup meaning when you select a song, all those patterns are automatically mapped to the pads, change the song and you get whatever patterns you set up for that song.

 

Now, changing the subject. You mentioned Yamaha PSR's. Three weeks ago I was on vacation in Puerto Vallarta and on Thrusday afternoon they had a live trio playing on the pool deck. This was a keyboard centric band. He had a live drummer and a female vocalist. All the music was from two Yamaha PSR's the S750 and S770. I've been interested in those so I walked up and talked to the guy when they took a break. He spoke no English but music is a universal language so we started jamming. Those new PSR's sound really good but alas the keybeds truly sucked bad. I have the Roland FA06 which has become infamous around here for a sucky keybed and these Yamahas felt to me like they had the exact same keyboard. Here's what that looks like:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PSRS770?adpos=1t1&creative=175866237996&device=c&matchtype=b&network=g&gclid=Cj0KEQjw9r7JBRCj37PlltTskaMBEiQAKTzTfKldsBUlxg-D00VwFeTObIbHulJeFkGvL8aTavjWvuwaAv5z8P8HAQ

 

It's only a 61 key and is very lightweight as opposed to your Tyros which is a huge lump to carry around. At $1,299 it's pretty affordable. If you want the top of the line PSR they have the S970 for two grand. Better sounds, styles and it has audio loops for drums instead of midi. Much more realistic sounding drums. Here's what that one looks like:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PSRS970?adpos=1t1&creative=192315849497&device=c&matchtype=e&network=g&gclid=Cj0KEQjw9r7JBRCj37PlltTskaMBEiQAKTzTfNxBCkIXHjNB1AaNAn5eDy_AZAfpz2NIr52vC5qb6YQaAlvi8P8HAQ

 

It probably has the same crappy keybed but I've never played this one so maybe it's better.

 

Hope some of these comments help you.

 

Bob

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Thank you gentlemen- Rally and Jazzmammal, others earlier too!

Appreciate it.

Rally, I like that idea a lot. But let me ask about ergonomic, "tire meets the road", fingers feet, have to play one board while triggering... Is it feasible, doable, practical??

 

All these ableton guys are off on another time zone... I am musician first.. and proud of it.. but the abletones, I do not know if they get it, get what I am trying to accomplish?

 

Specifically, where is the push controller in relation to my body and my keyboard?

And the Ableton way, involves TWO pieces of computer hardware, the Mac and the pads.. sounds a bit scary.

But a picture is with a 1000 doubts.. so if you have a picture of a musician doing this, that would help anyone thinking in mid 21st century terms... ableton w Push and a Mac or PC, and a keyboard .

 

Jazzmammal

I own a beat up psr900 but do not trust it right now. It was beat on by previous owner, who inclined me towards the tyros.

 

The self contained speakers in psr900 are really handy

light weight is great for older lower backs.

 

Give me time to take in your point about the pads as triggers for essentially Scenes ( Ableton jargon )

I even own a G6 Fantom w 16 pads.

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Ok you have heard of curiosity and the proverbial cat. Well I have been called a cat before. I am thinking of trying Ableton... but because drums are my focus with Ableton and because I am super senstive to drum grooves

I wanted opinions on BFD 3 Addictive Steven Slate etc

The maximum number of pre created drum grooves is important

and realistic sound.

 

Suggestions!

 

edit Are all Daws equal in terms of results when editing creating MIDI tracks?

Differences being what one is most comfortable with. Right?

Great grooves can come as readily in Sonar as MPC Akai as Ableton as Reaper?

True?