Nord Electro 5D vs Hammond SK1

[AnotherScott]

I finally got a chance to play these two side-by-side, I thought I'd share some observations. I'll try to do a video if I get a chance, we'll see. Anyway...

 

Without leslie sim on, the basic organ tone is quite similar. If you pick the more "vintage" settings of each, you'll hear that the "pitch" of the leakage is different, but I can't say one is necessarily better or worse than the other (though I like that you can get more of it on the Hammond). The click/percussion on the Nord seem "spittier." Moving the drawbars creates smooth transitions on the Hammond and much more audible jumps on the Nord. I didn't play with C/V.

 

Once you switch in the Leslie, these boards are much more different. As most of you know, Leslies affect an organ three ways: the spinning effect itself, and also an alteration of tone, and also overdrive. IMO, the SK1 is much better at the spinning effect, you really get the increasing whomp-whomp-whomp as the rotor accelerates from slow to fast, which is barely there at all in the Nord (at least in mono which is how I gig... I didn't check in stereo). OTOH, there is almost no tonal difference at all on the Hammond when you switch in its sim, compared to the big difference in tone when you switch the rotary effect in on the Nord. I think the Nord is more authentic here, though there's also a trade-off as the low end drops off when you switch the rotary in, something that doesn't happen on the SK1. This tonal change also makes the Nord sound more "aggressive." Finally, there's the overdrive, which is where the SK1 really falls short, it's really awful beyond just using a hair of it for taste. The Nord OD is far more usable. The flip side of this, as others have noticed, is that there is always a bit of OD on the Nord's rotary sim, you can't get it as totally clean sounding as you can get the Hammond's. So, surprise, there's no clear winner here (sorry), they both do some things better than the other. If you're a jazz player, I suspect you may prefer the SK1 with it's fuller low end (with rotary on), ability to get a cleaner sound, smoother sounding live drawbar manipulation, and more impactful rotary effect. If you're a rock player, OTOH, the overdrive and more aggressive tone and spit of the Nord might sway you that way. Both would presumably be improved by a Vent, even if for different reasons. Assuming you don't want all your sounds going through the Vent, Nord accommodates by allowing you to split the stereo output to dual mono (you then pick the appropriate side for your organ sound), and Hammond accommodates by selling a special cable to tap just the organ sound off the board's multipin Leslie connector.

 

If you will also be playing piano from the board, of course the Nord piano is much better sounding than Hammond's, but besides that, it also *plays* better. If you're trying to play a quiet-ish passage, the Nord manages surprisingly well, compared to the Hammond, where I had a much harder time managing dynamics... a little too light, no sound at all, a little harder, and it's way louder than the note you just played. I was surprised the E5D handled this so much better, especially considering I found the dynamics more problematic in earlier semi-weighted Nords I've played.

 

I also spent a little time on the clavs, and I know a lot of people really like the Hammond clavs. Well, the Hammond and Nord clavs do sound different from each other, and as I haven't owned a clav in decades, I do not consider myself a reliable source as to which sounds more faithful to the original at the various pickup positions. However, with that caveat, I give the edge to the Nord on clavs (even despite the Hammond having release noises that the Nord lacks). For one thing, the Hammond seems to be 2-layer with very obvious velocity shifts, the Nord seems generally a little more subtle in its dynamic shifts (though not always). But more than that, as I happened to have mentioned in an unrelated thread recently, I think one of the keys to getting a clav to sound authentically "snappy" is to have a low release point, and the Nord releases much lower in its travel. In fact, I was surprised to see that Nord seems to have very specifically addressed this (something I don't think I've ever seen Nord or anyone else mention)... the release point for the clavs is much lower than the release point for the pianos! So they seem to be using the lower of the two sensors for clav release, and the higher of the two for piano release. Clever!

 

In terms of overall operating interface, I like that Hammond has ten recallable patch selection buttons (you can program their behavior a few different ways), whereas Nord has only four (in a "song" in your set list), requiring knob-twirling (or externally generated MIDI program changes) to get to additional saved presets, and the Hammond also has more deep level sound editing available. OTOH, the Nord seems (mostly) more intuitive to operate overall, and provides for more on-the-fly manipulation of effects and such. Obviously, the Nord has a better, more modern display, but also Hammond made what I think are some less than ideal ergonomic choices like black buttons on a black background and some buttons with barely readable gray-on-gray legends. I also find it a little off that Hammond puts its "upper" ("right hand") buttons to the left of its "lower" ("left hand") buttons, and the display is similarly oriented (i.e. on the Nord, the display of a split shows your right hand drawbars on the right and your left hand drawbars on the left, while the Hammond display shows the reverse). I understand it philosophically... on a B3, the drawbars for the right are on the left (making it easy to play with your right hand while adjusting that sound with your left) and vice versa. But when you only have one set of drawbars, that benefit goes out the window, and so while I see the flipped buttons/display as a nod to authenticity, this may be a case of carrying it too far, doing the backwards thing when there's no longer any benefit to it. I'd be curious to know what people who regularly play real tonewheel organs think, maybe it seems more "normal" to them. Either way, I suppose you get used to it.

 

Of course there are numerous other fundamental differences in the boards which I'm not discussing in this already too-long post, I'm not attempting to list all the feature differences or pros and cons of the boards, but am just discussing some of what I found in direct comparison, and mostly things that I think might not be so obvious if you were just looking at their features and specs on paper.

 

Anyway, I still have access to both, if anyone would like me to compare anything else or possibly include something in particular if I manage to do that video. I'd also be curious to hear the thoughts of others who have been able to directly compare them.

[Markay]

Hey Scott, no need to apologise for the length of the review. It comes across as an impartial and well balanced assessment, with some unique insights, e.g. Clav release points, that I am certain will be of great assistance to anyone who is considering these boards.

[Legatoboy]

Very nice review...I've had my Nord Electro 5d 61 for about a year and a half now and I'm getting a lot of mileage out it. I have wondered about this comparison...

[OrpheusNY]

Nice comparison. As an E5 owner I thought I'd point out that each organ program stores two different presets, so it's really more like 8 patches you can recall without twirling a knob, at least in terms of drawbar positions, C/V, and percussion. The effects/EQ etc sections would be the same for each pair of presets within a program.

[mwheels]

Don't know if you discovered it or not, but the rotary simulator on the Nord can be adjusted.

 

11 - ROTARY SPEAKER TYPE can be set to 122 or 122Close, the latter being a close miked version of the same speaker emulation. 122 is default.

12 - ROTARY BALANCE sets the balance be- tween the bass rotor and treble horn 70/30, 60/40, 50/50, 40/60 and 30/70. default is 50/50.

13 - ROTARY HORN SPEED could be set to Low, Normal or High. default is set to Medium.

14 - ROTARY HORN ACC sets the acceleration and retardation of the rotary bass horn to Low, Normal or High. default is set to Normal.

15 - ROTARY ROTOR SPEED sets the speed of the rotary bass horn to Low, Normal or High. default is set to Normal.

16 - ROTARY ROTOR ACC sets the acceleration and retardation of the rotary treble horn to Low, Normal or High. default is set to Normal.

 

I faced the same decision last year and went with the NE5d over the Hammond - no regrets.

[DanL]

I own both boards and generally agree with Scott.

 

The main reason I bought the Electro was the far better pianos, EP's and availability of the sample library to get the extra sounds like synth string emulations (which the Hammond also has, just not the same variety). The ability to choose what pianos and EP's you like out of an extensive library is great.

 

The Hammond organ engine is much more editable, but the Nord also provides some decent edit capabilities around key click, leakage, leslie settings, percussion volume and decay times. The Hammond lets you adjust just about any parameter you want including loading custom tone wheel sets, and is superior on handling midi, with 3 zones that can all send different program changes, note ranges, etc. The Nord really comes short in this area and I had to make some compromises in my 3 board rig around program changes and routing. If it had a soft thru it would be much better, but it doesn't have this. Perhaps a future OS update will provide it.

 

The 1 thing I dislike about the Nord Leslie sim is going from fast to stop. The rotors stop way too fast, especially the low rotor. Where you'd expect it to take 5-10 seconds for it to slow all the way down, it only takes a couple seconds. I didn't find any edit parameter to help that. Tone wise, it really sounds good. Even with the always on overdrive- it's really not that much if you turn the knob all the way down, it's only audible when you have the expression pedal floored. My real Leslie wasn't all that clean sounding either, so this aspect of the Nord doesn't bother me. The overdrive is much nicer, to the point that I don't need my Vent on the Nord. The Hammond overdrive, while not as nice, does have some options and many of us would use the EP Amp sim for overdrive vs tube, as the EP sim was more subtle.

 

As OrpheusNY pointed out, while there is only 1 set of drawbars on the Nord (and Hammond), you can quickly switch between two drawbar settings with 1 button touch. So you can set up an 888000000 setting and switch to all 8's with 1 button press. C/V, percussion are also able to be configured on each drawbar setting, then you can save that to a patch. It's also good for using a lower manual and split mode where you can easily swap between drawbar settings for each manual.

 

As far as the keyboard feel goes, I like them both. Are they authentic to a 1960's era organ? No, but it's a nice feel that you can dig into without any slop or cheap feel like a VR09. You can set a high trigger point on the Nord (I think the Hammond as well) for the organ sounds which helps.

[RABid]

I've got the XK-3c and the Nord Stage 2. Much of what was said in Scott's review holds true for these two keyboards. I love the Hammond XK-3c but hate the distortion. It is fine for church music, but in a band playing rock a Vent is a must. With the Nord I can get by without a Vent.

[bennyray]

It came down to these 2 boards last year and I went with the Nord mostly because of pianos and sample synth library which is ok at best. I wish I could get a totally clean leslie sound on the Nord as I have mentioned before. If I was looking at organ clone only I like the Hammond XK1-C but I needed pianos more. Satisfied with the purchase and I had a friend that his keyboard stand collapsed and his Nord E5D was on top tier and luckily it was not damaged at all. I have to say the Nord E5D is built really well.

[kenheeter]

In terms of quality of build, I don't think you can beat the Nord stuff. I accidentally drove onto my Nord Electro 2 in its soft case with my Astro van while moving house about 12 years ago, then I gingerly drove off of it. I had to replace one broken pot and hammer out the bent top cover, but it fired right up and has been used regularly ever since. I sold it to a friend years ago and he loves telling folks this story during performance. Bullet proof!

 

Cheers, Ken

 

[AnotherScott]

Nice comparison. As an E5 owner I thought I'd point out that each organ program stores two different presets, so it's really more like 8 patches you can recall without twirling a knob, at least in terms of drawbar positions, C/V, and percussion. The effects/EQ etc sections would be the same for each pair of presets within a program.

True. And in fact, on both boards, there are other ways to get to some different sounds without recalling a user preset. On the Nord, for example, besides what you've mentioned, you can switch from an organ sound to a piano sound to a "synth" (sampled instrument) sound; and within the piano sounds, you can get to a variety of sounds with button presses. Similarly, on the SK1, you can directly call up a bunch of non-organ sounds with live panel button presses, without even using the 10 primary patch recall buttons. But I do wish the Nord had more buttons for custom patch recall.

 

Don't know if you discovered it or not, but the rotary simulator on the Nord can be adjusted.

Yes, I did play with that, but could not get the "whomp" out of the rotor with any setting.

Similarly, I tried to get the spittier key click out of the Hammond... I got the volume to match, and got the tone closer by opening up the filter on it more, but it still wasn't the same, the Hammond click remained more percussive, the Nord click was smushier.

 

The main reason I bought the Electro was the far better pianos, EP's and availability of the sample library to get the extra sounds like synth string emulations (which the Hammond also has, just not the same variety).

Yes, Hammond has some nice extra sounds, but there are a far greater number of nice Nord samples sounds you can't duplicate in the Hammond than vice versa, and the ability to play with those sounds with live controls (envelope, etc.) is a very useful addition. As is the ability to load custom samples of your own.

 

The Hammond lets you adjust just about any parameter you want including loading custom tone wheel sets, and is superior on handling midi, with 3 zones that can all send different program changes, note ranges, etc.

The custom tonewheel set ability of the SK1 intrigues me, though I have no great disappointment in the stock set. I wonder if I might just like the Hammond's tone better, though, with some alternate set. Maybe I should try to locate and load in Jim Alfredson's, is that available for the SK1?

 

Yes, MIDI functionality is way, way better on the SK1.

 

The 1 thing I dislike about the Nord Leslie sim is going from fast to stop.

Though I don't use "stop" myself (just fast and slow), that's similar to my "whomp" criticism... in general, the Nord falls short on the transitions between speeds, SK1 (or Vent) is much better there.

 

Even with the always on overdrive- it's really not that much if you turn the knob all the way down...My real Leslie wasn't all that clean sounding either, so this aspect of the Nord doesn't bother me.

My experience and conclusion is the same, but I know some feel differently about this.

 

The overdrive is much nicer, to the point that I don't need my Vent on the Nord.

I love the Hammond XK-3c but hate the distortion. It is fine for church music, but in a band playing rock a Vent is a must. With the Nord I can get by without a Vent.

As a rock player, I agree with both of you, the overdrive would leave me dissatisfied playing the SK1 without a Vent, whereas I could get by on the Nord without a Vent. But it's a bit of lesser of two evils, as I really want the good overdrive AND more pronounced acceleration/deceleration effect. If you can only get one, I'm sure some would choose one while others would choose the other, but I think ideally, you get the Vent and have both. I'm hoping to actually get a chance to try both of these side-by-side with the Vent in the next few days.

 

So far, it seems of people who have replied with their own preferences, they have leaned Nord. I wonder if I'll hear from more Hammond-leaners.

[DanL]

Jim's tonewheel set is available on the Hammond site. It's a bit kludgy to install, you need to back up all your presets for sure, Jim had said you lose the 1st 10 but all of mine got overwritten.

[vanderSchoot]

The consensus about the Neo ventilator is that it is still giving most clones a much better leslie simulation/distortion.

I thought that when the SK1/2, Nord electro5 and especcially the Mojo and UHL came out that the vent became more and more obsolete.

 

Probably our hearing becomes more critical after a while and obviously the vent stands out still.

I remember how long the Dynacord CLS-222 lead the crop, despite the newer Rotosphere MK2 and Voce spin 2 and the claims those made.

 

I think i'll keep my original vent forever and wait a while after the introduction of every new clone ( that will obviously will have the early buyers believe you the vent IS obsolete this time around).

When the dust is settled everyone seems the be using their vent with their latest clone in no time.

[AnotherScott]

One important thing I forgot to mention (and have now gone back to with an edit)... I did all my rotary evaluation in MONO because that's how I gig. So that might have had some impact on the relative impact of the rotary effect.

 

The consensus about the Neo ventilator is that it is still giving most clones a much better leslie simulation/distortion.

I thought that when the SK1/2, Nord electro5 and especcially the Mojo and UHL came out that the vent became more and more obsolete....When the dust is settled everyone seems the be using their vent with their latest clone in no time.

Yup. People always come out with "this new rotary is so good, you don't need a vent," but it seems that invariably, while that statement may indeed be true for some people, it just means it has passed a threshold of "close enough" for them... it seems Vent is still always better, and it's just a matter of whether you're okay with being at some (perhaps increasingly small) point below that standard. Without a Vent, it seems, you're always at second best, if that. (Well, third, if you count a real 122 or whatever.) Same with the Burn which people were touting as a Vent beater for a while. More flexible? Sure. Cheaper? Okay (at least at the time). But ultimately, nope, not as authentic as a Vent, at least to most people.

 

The first time I remember that phenomenon was with the original Numa Organ, the first one where people were saying you don't need a Vent, and at least in mono, I didn't think that was nearly as good as a Vent, I was surprised at the raves. I mean, it was good, better than most... nice tone, decent overdrive... but again, no three dimensional "whomp-whomp-whomp" as you changed speeds. The Numa Organ 2 is actually much better, and could be a Vent-competitor contender, except on that one, the overdrive is not nearly as good as on the original! It's always something...

[vanderSchoot]

Same with the Burn which people were touting as a Vent beater for a while. More flexible? Sure. Cheaper? Okay (at least at the time). But ultimately, nope, not as authentic as a Vent, at least to most people.

Ohhh yes,....i completely forgot about the Burn, yes that was indeed what some people were saying (also over here) who had both or tested both....

 

 

 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

Jim's tonewheel set is available on the Hammond site. It's a bit kludgy to install, you need to back up all your presets for sure, Jim had said you lose the 1st 10 but all of mine got overwritten.

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I mean is that all presets are overwritten but my custom presets are in the first 10 slots. The user presets from the factory are just copies of the presets in ROM (non-changeable).

 

Regarding the SK sim, there is a 'character' parameter that adds more of a cabinet emulation to the sim. There are also models of other Leslies in there. The 31H model is my personal fav. But I agree that the SK sim does not model the sound of the cabinet as forcefully as the Nord or the Vent. And yes, the solidity of the low-end is really nice for playing left-hand / pedal bass.

 

The velocity response of the keyboard can be changed, which can help with the dynamic response of the pianos / electric pianos / etc. I do hope that Hammond will continue the SK line and in the next generation allow user samples to be loaded in Soundfont format, like Nord. I also hope they continue to develop new, non-organ sounds. There is a lot of room for improvement there. I helped connect Gregg Gronowski with several third party sound creators but he's unfortunately no longer with us and I have no idea what's happening that regard anymore. We'll see.

 

[JB Sherry]

Same with the Burn which people were touting as a Vent beater for a while. More flexible? Sure. Cheaper? Okay (at least at the time). But ultimately, nope, not as authentic as a Vent, at least to most

Ohhh yes,....i completely forgot about the Burn, yes that was indeed what some people were saying (also over here) who had both or tested both....

 

Although there are some here that prefer the sound of the Burn to the Vent, regardless of cost. I totally dig my original Vent, but worth mentioning there's another point of view.

 

[mate stubb]

My encounter with a E5D yesterday finally convinced me that trying to play piano on an organ action was worse than trying to play organ on a piano action.

 

I had a really hard time getting an even velocity response from it. And I always find myself hurting my hands because I am playing too hard on a nonweighted action trying to get it to respond. I have the same problem with my Mojo 61 in piano mode in rehearsals.

 

So I think my dream of single lightweight rehearsal board is dead. That means completely separate 2 board rigs permanently set up in each of my different bands' rehearsal spaces. Expensive, but then I don't have to move gear unless I gig.

[bennyray]

My encounter with a E5D yesterday finally convinced me that trying to play piano on an organ action was worse than trying to play organ on a piano action.

 

I had a really hard time getting an even velocity response from it. And I always find myself hurting my hands because I am playing too hard on a nonweighted action trying to get it to respond. I have the same problem with my Mojo 61 in piano mode in rehearsals.

 

So I think my dream of single lightweight rehearsal board is dead. That means completely separate 2 board rigs permanently set up in each of my different bands' rehearsal spaces. Expensive, but then I don't have to move gear unless I gig.

 

I feel the opposite but it depends if you are a truly organ player where you do slides, and swoops up the keyboard. I use my Nord E5D only on some gigs that don't require alot of piano and it takes getting used to semi-weighted keys. I prefer weighted keys for piano but I have taught myself to adjust to SW keys to a certain extent.

[AnotherScott]

My encounter with a E5D yesterday finally convinced me that trying to play piano on an organ action was worse than trying to play organ on a piano action.

 

I had a really hard time getting an even velocity response from it.

 

I feel the opposite but it depends if you are a truly organ player where you do slides, and swoops up the keyboard.

Yeah, I have to say, it depends on repertoire/playing style (and the particular boards).

 

The E5D is not the best un/semi-weighted action I've ever played piano on, but also far from the worst. Some I've preferred are Numa Compact and possibly some of the better Rolands. I think all the Korgs I've played have been worse. As for organ playing on weighted actions, at least some of the 88 key Nord Stage models, Kawai MP7, the better (TP40-based) Kurzweils have been pretty decent. Still, it's always a compromise. If you're playing Jerry Lee Lewis style rock and roll piano, you can probably get by on most actions, and the more dynamically nuanced you need your piano playing to be, the more you'll feel frustrated by any non-hammer action. Similarly, you can probably manage Whiter Shade of Pale pretty well on most hammer actions, but if you're playing with lots of organ-specific technique, you'll run into roadblocks (or bleeding) before long on most weighted actions, and even on the ones that are the most amenable, it still is still an inferior playing experience to a non-hammer action board.

[Gretel]

How do the pipe organs compare? No joke, I am really interested in the pipe organ section of both.

[mate stubb]

I feel the opposite but it depends if you are a truly organ player where you do slides, and swoops up the keyboard. I use my Nord E5D only on some gigs that don't require alot of piano and it takes getting used to semi-weighted keys. I prefer weighted keys for piano but I have taught myself to adjust to SW keys to a certain extent.

 

Oh believe me, I am far more of an organ player than a piano player these days. My Stage Classic has the full hammer action. Ignoring the organ sound for a second, I can and have done full organ techniques and smears on it. It's just not fun.

 

OTOH, my hands don't hurt afterward from pounding trying to play piano.

[AnotherScott]

How do the pipe organs compare? No joke, I am really interested in the pipe organ section of both.

That's a tough one. As much as we say that real tonewheels organs don't all sound alike, real pipe organs REALLY don't all sound alike, so there's even less of a reference as to what a proper pipe organ emulation "should" sound like. That said, I can say that the two boards take entirely different approaches to pipe organ.

 

The Nord has a single pipe organ timbre, and makes that timbre available in the same 9 footages as the Hammond tonewheels, with the same amount of footage-by-footage adjustability. So while there is only one underlying pipe organ timbre, there are as many permutations of that sound available as there are permutations of tonewheel organs with their 9 drawbars.

 

The SK1 has, at least to my ears, 6 completely different pipe organ timbres among its 9 drawbar controls:

 

1. pipes that sound a bit like blowing into a coke bottle, as Bourdon 16' and Flute 2' (the latter is not identical to an octave-shifted version of the first, but it has a somewhat similar character)

 

2. pipes reminiscent of a french horn, as OpenDiap 8' and Octave 4' (the latter is again not identical to an octave shifted version of the first, it is not as french-horny, but it shares a similar basic character, though it also has a bit of a coke-bottle higher octave overtone). This is the one that is closest to the character of the Nord pipes, though the Nord pipes have less "air" in them.

 

3. pipes that sound like a wooden flute, as Gedeckt 8' and Flauto 4'

 

4. pipes that are vaguely accordion-like, as VoixClst II (which has an 8' fundamental)

 

5. pipes with a strong fundamental-plus-fifth and lots of overtones, as Mixture III. The fundamental is quite high, 1'.

 

6. pipes with an oboe-like (or harmonium) sound, as Hautbois 8'

 

And now, to make it really confusing, you can mix and match ALL of the above! Though each of the 9 "pipes" are either on or off, rather than being completely adjustable in volume.

 

So which is "better"? I'm no pipe organ expert. But I'd say the arguments for SK1 being better are...

 

(1) you can create pipe organ sounds of completely different characters. Yes, you have far more variability of a sort with the Nord's 9 continuously variable controls, but just as the countless different tonewheel drawbar settings still sound fundamentally like Hammond tonewheel organ sounds (despite their enormous differences), all the many different possible Nord pipe organ sounds sound similarly like they are coming from the same pipe organ, whereas with the SK1, you gets sounds of entirely different characters.

 

(2) the attacks are more authentic on the SK1. On the Nord, the sound simply "comes on" when you hit the key. On the SK1, you get some different kinds of attacks, the slightly soft attack or puff or squeak, it's hard to describe these things, but it is a little more "alive". Related to that, as mentioned above, the SK1 can give you more of a sense of air moving through the pipes.

 

OTOH...

 

The blending of different pipe drawbars with such different characters on the SK1 would take some learning, you might get some unexpected results. For that reason but at least as much because each SK1 pipe drawbar is only On or Off (which means that introducing a new one would be abrupt), I think the way to use the SK1 pipe is to find the setting you want for a piece and leave it there. A true pipe organist will often bring in different footages as he plays. That works well on the Nord, whereas, IMO, that doesn't work at all on the SK1.

 

So I guess pick SK1 for a wider range of "fixed" sounds with more character, Nord if you want to change the sound as you play (assuming you like the character of Nord's "one" pipe organ).

[AnotherScott]

My Stage Classic has the full hammer action...I can and have done full organ techniques and smears on it. It's just not fun.

Yup, as I put it, an "inferior playing experience", even on a board like the Stage Classic which is a better compromise than most.

my hands don't hurt afterward from pounding trying to play piano.

On the E5D (which, again, I find reasonably playable for a SW piano board, but by no means the best), I don't find myself banging. However, I find that there is "stress" from having to exert more pressure to keep the keys held down, there is such a strong spring pushback. I haven't played it extensively by any means, but I do feel that effect as I play, and I could imagine it could get tiring if it were my main piano board for the night. (And I'd say it does push back a bit more than the SK1 does, which also still pushes back more than I'd like.)

[mate stubb]

How do the pipe organs compare? No joke, I am really interested in the pipe organ section of both.

 

To expand on Scott's explanation above:

 

Attack sounds on a pipe organ emulation parallel key click on a hammond emulation. You have a "chiff" sound to a greater or lesser degree from the rush of air into the pipe, an initial unsteadiness of pitch then the body of the tone.

 

Different families of pipes sound different. The general classes are diapasons, flutes (metal or wood), reeds, and strings.

 

Diapasons are metal pipes with an open sound. They are the main voice of the organ and what you would likely hear in church when a hymn is being played.

 

Flutes have fewer overtones and can be made of metal or wood. A stopped flute is a wood pipe half the length of a normal pipe for that pitch.

 

Reeds are loud brassy sounding pipes with lots of overtones, usually with high wind pressure.

 

Strings don't sound anything like real strings, but more like quieter and gentler reeds. They make good solo stops and often are used with a tremolo or a chorus rank (dual pipes detuned).

[AnotherScott]

Thanks for all that detail, Moe.

 

So I guess Nord probably models a diapson based pipe, with full adjustability, whereas Hammond samples a variety of pipes, with less adjustability, but with the more genuine "artifacts" (i.e. "chiff" etc.). I'm quite sure the Hammond is sampled, as its pipe sounds have occasional abrupt tonal shifts between keys as we are used to hearing with stretch-sampled instruments. The Nord sound is consistent (albeit "simple") from top to bottom, and I'm pretty sure all Nord organs have always been modeled (which would also be why there is no "organ sample memory" as there is "piano sample memory" and "synth sample memory").

[mate stubb]

BTW, the Mojo 61 has a nice physically modelled pipe organ engine, complete with the different pipe classes.

[MathOfInsects]

Great break-down, Scott. The 'lower-pick-up' thing never would have registered for me on the clavs, but I just turned around and tested it, and...sure enough, it makes sense.

 

I have not played an SK-1 in any depth, but can attest: the Nord Leslie sim, while NOT better than the Vent, is good enough that I do not bring the Vent2 to gigs any more, using it instead only for recording. It is a permanent fixture in my little studio now. The organ itself is grunty and mellow when I want it, growly and pissed off when I want it. I have been very happy with the organ sounds in the NE5D. The clavs are bright and lively. EP's and APs are from Nord's library, of course, so you can get them on any Sample-enable Nord, but I would like to sing the praises of the action on this board. It is responsive and intuitive for organ, and also just stubborn enough to make AP and EP playing surprisingly satisfying. I can comfortably use this board a single-board solution on far more gigs than I expected to, and now often leave my NS Classic home.

 

I am not saying much about the synths, you notice. Until I find a small-enough pitch-bend solution (and some kind of mod-control), I consider it an inferior option for synths, which keeps it from being the perfect second (or sometimes-first) board. And the limited splits/layers are a doofus, including the can't-believe-they-haven't-changed-this-yet nonsense of the fixed split points, which has been groused about ad nauseam. Beyond that...a great board, particularly for the money I spent on it used-like-new from CL.

 

[Doerfler]

there are some here that prefer the sound of the Burn to the Vent, regardless of cost. I totally dig my original Vent, but worth mentioning there's another point of view.

Guess this is OT now but it seems that's where I live.

I have owned both and sold both on this forum. Cool thing about the Burn is one can hook it up to a Hammond console and then listen through the headphone jack. Great for not waking up the family.

[AnotherScott]

Glad to hear the E5D is working for you for piano, MOI. I'm toying with the idea of using it as a piano board sometimes... as I mentioned, I find it more playable for piano than I expected, but am wary about the pushback, so it's good to hear some positive feedback there. I'd be using it on those gigs where I currently use a Numa Compact. The Nord is heavier, has fewer keys (73), pushes back more, and doesn't give me one-button selection of as many sounds, so it doesn't sound like the obvious move! But I love that I'd also get a clonewheel without having to bring another board, among other NE5D benefits.

 

Until I find a small-enough pitch-bend solution (and some kind of mod-control), I consider it an inferior option for synths, which keeps it from being the perfect second (or sometimes-first) board. And the limited splits/layers are a doofus

For pitch bend on boards where I've needed it, I've used a Behringer US600, set for a whole step (which is almost always what I want). It's not MIDI, it processes the audio. It's simple and cheap, and I actually prefer using my foot for the bend, because it frees my left hand to be playing something underneath the lead on another board. If you want to get fancy, you can also do this by taking a continuous ("half-damper") sustain pedal and running it through a MIDI Solutions box so that it sends MIDI pitch bend, and run that to the MIDI In. It's nice because you can actually control the exact pitch and rate of getting there, just like you would with a wheel (so you can, for example, set it for a whole step, and press it just partially when you want a half step). Plus no battery to worry about. It's a nicer solution, but more money, more complicated to initially set up, and ties up the MIDI In (unless you then add a MIDI Merge). But either approach is compact. Forget any kind of true mod control on the Electro "synths" sounds, though. There's no LFO in there for a mod controller to actually control.

 

But this is cool... as limited as the NE5D is as a MIDI controller and as a splittable board, they built in a brilliantly simple way of adding a synth module to a split. (It's on page 15 of the manual, SENDING MIDI ON PART UPPER IN KB SPLIT MODE). You can just velcro something like a Roland Boutique on to the E5D and MIDI it up, and it will respond to the Upper keys of a split. I just tried it, it worked perfectly, without so much as even having to change any MIDI transmit/receive away from their defaults on either the Nord or the Roland. When you want to use the synth, enable keyboard split but assign no internal Nord sound to the keys above the split (or assign a Nord sound as well, if you want to layer it). The synth only plays when Split is engaged, and then only at the point above the Split. And if you never intend to use split except for this purpose, you're done! However, if you want to also use split for a second internal Nord sound WITHOUT hearing the synth, you also have to deal with how to STOP the synth from playing when you don't want it to play (i.e. when you're just playing some other Nord sound above the split). So you either need to recall a "silent" patch on the synth, or establish a quick way to cut its volume, or add a MIDI Kill switch, something I recently found at https://www.etsy.com/listing/258510836/midi-kill-switch - But here's what's also nice about this, the Nord is smart enough to NOT transmit other panel info to the external module in this mode! So if you're layering the synth with a Nord sound, and you're manipulating the Nord sound (changing the sound, playing with effects or drawbars, etc.), all those things can be done safely without sending random MIDI nonsense to the attached module. Cool, huh? So there's your pitch bend and mod and a bunch more, in a tiny box!

 

ETA: It would be even nicer if you could run the audio out of the synth into the Nord's audio in and merge it into the Nord's main outs, but as you probably know, that audio only comes out the headphone jack. So then I guess either you use your headphone jack as your main send, or you need to send the synth audio to another channel of your amp or mixer.

 

[Electro Fan]

If you will also be playing piano from the board, of course the Nord piano is much better sounding than Hammond's, but besides that, it also *plays* better. If you're trying to play a quiet-ish passage, the Nord manages surprisingly well, compared to the Hammond, where I had a much harder time managing dynamics... a little too light, no sound at all, a little harder, and it's way louder than the note you just played. I was surprised the E5D handled this so much better, especially considering I found the dynamics more problematic in earlier semi-weighted Nords I've played.

 

It is this issue with the velocity curves of the EV sounds in my SK2 that has led me to realize I can not comfortably gig with this a my sole board. I have tried to edit the Velocity of the AP and EP sounds, but find that either the sound is nonexistent if I play too lightly or jumps out unexpectedly with a firmer touch. This recently happened at the gig I played during a quiet section using a Rhodes type sound. I spent the whole tie with left hand jumping to the volume knob trying to control the dynamics.

 

As for the Nord ED 5, I have only briefly tried it out in a music store, but I found it much more responsive to my touch with AP and EP sounds. I previously owned a NE2 and despite the action being highly sprung, but I was able to adapt to it much quicker than I have with my SK2.

 

I think if I can manage to sell my SK2 or find someone to trade with, I would move to a Nord again, or perhaps the single manual Mojo 61.

 

Oh, and I really find the distortion to be very harsh and not organic sounding in any way on the SK2.