RANT: Yet Another eBay/UPS Debacle

[Rusty Mike]

Apologies in advance for this long winded tale of woe.

 

I put my Kurzweil PC361 up for sale on eBay in early December. The auction was won by a person in Wyoming on December 11. I packed up the instrument and all the extras I included in the sale in two boxes, which shipped out via UPS on the 12th. I had included the Kurzweil branded soft case for the instrument in the sale, and packed the keyboard in the case, and then in the keyboard's original shipping box. There was some space at the end of the box, so I stuck one of the original styrofoam end pieces at the end and sealed up the box. I then put the remaining packing materials and all the other extras in another box, and sent it out UPS Ground.

 

There were some weather issues in Wyoming, so the buyer did not receive the shipment until December 22. He opened it yesterday, January 1, and promptly emailed me to let me know that the keyboard was damaged upon arrival. It seems that the box was dropped on the end that did not have the styrofoam packing, which shattered the right cheek block. He sent pictures of both the keyboard and the box, and there is indeed trauma to the box, along with what appears to be water damage. The buyer said he's taking it back to UPS for return to me, and requested a return on eBay.

 

Given that today (Jan 2) is a holiday, I cannot contact UPS to get this process started. The claims section on the website asks for a repair/replace cost of the item, which I will not know until I get it to a local repair center. In addition, the buyer says that UPS will pay for the return shipping to me, as well as refund my original cost. This is the first time I'm experiencing this, and don't know if he's correct.

 

I'm rather upset over this, and am now second guessing my packing approach. I packed the keyboard and the case together primary because I didn't want to find a second large box to pack the empty case in. It did cost me extra to ship due to the size, weight and value, and they should have certainly handled it better. But I'm wondering if the damage would have still occurred if I packed the keyboard the original way.

 

This instrument was in immaculate condition, and the damage is very disturbing to me. I will of course get it repaired back to original condition, and then attempt to sell it again.

 

I needed to share this with people who understand. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[timwat]

Mike,

 

Very sorry to hear about this.

 

Having worked for UPS many years ago (I was a package loader in those big semi trailers), I would suggest you should ALWAYS assume a UPS box will be dropped casually on one of the long ends. Therefore, always pack keyboards with the original styrofoam end blocks or similar. It's just a function of the way heavy, long, oversized boxes will be handled in real life. If the board could be compromised by a drop on the end of the box, it needs to be cushioned / protected better. Because it will be.

 

One reason I would commend every keyboard purchaser (if purchasing new) to save ANY AND ALL packing materials upon receipt.

 

Hopefully you can get it sorted out, repaired and resold quickly.

 

Tim

 

[MathOfInsects]

Sorry, Mike.

 

Want a flip-side story? I went to New York with my kids over Christmas. I ordered their presents to be sent there. When they didn't show up by the 24th, I checked and discovered they had been delivered instead to my home in CA, and dropped there on the 21st. "Front porch or door" was the note on the delivery.

 

I called the dog-sitter: no packages anywhere. Damn. Someone got a nice free set of Christmas gifts.

 

I called Amazon, raised heck, got a refund, and scrambled to replace the gifts on Christmas Eve.

 

Fast forward to my return to CA. I go to pick up my mail. Out comes a huge Amazon box. "Wha??" I say, articulately. I show the guy the delivery notification, "Front porch or door." "Oh, looks like he checked the wrong box."

 

So I ended up getting them for free, without meaning or wanting to. The box is sitting in my garage waiting for me to decide how moral and ethical I will be with it.

 

Do the right thing, Math....do the right thing, Math...

 

 

[Doerfler]

Having worked for UPS many years ago (I was a package loader in those big semi trailers), I would suggest you should ALWAYS assume a UPS box will be dropped casually on one of the long ends.

I also did the same one summer while in college and agree with Tim.

The last keyboard I shipped via UPS from DC to Delaware (not very far) to Dan Long got destroyed, although there was no damage to the packaging. I refunded Dan his money. That was the end of that. Never ship a keyboard in a soft case inside a box. Lesson learned for me.

[WesG]

Re UPS - you goofed on the packing, my friend. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Anything you ship, with any large carrier, needs to be able to take at least a 4 foot drop on any edge or surface. The original box might not even be this sturdy, but it certainly will not be if you remove the shock absorbers.

 

Math - I had a similar problem with a large web store last year. I told them they could either send me a shipping label and I would ship it back for them, or they could make me a deeply-discounted offer for the item, and I would keep it. We agreed on a good price and I kept the item.

[ShadowMan]

Before you beat yourself up too bad, keep in mind that even the best packaged items can get damaged in shipping.

 

A few years back I bought a vintage electric guitar from someone, and they packed it perfectly and shipped it USPS. It arrived with tire tracks across the flattened box. Apparently a forklift had driven over it - and I guess they figured they'd just deliver it and it would go unnoticed!!!

 

Even with the cooperation of the seller, my local postmaster and postal inspectors, it took 6 weeks to get reimbursed.

 

Since then I let FedEx pack, insure and ship - and just build it in to the pricing.

[SoloInterface]

UPS drops boxes, customers complain, the damaged box is sent to be evaluated, it's rubber stamped "not packaged correctly", UPS doesn't make amends, keeps the shipping AND THE INSURENCE PREMIUM YOU PAID!! I just don't have the time to tell my story or send the pictures from four years ago involving a Fender Rhodes. The 'Right to drop boxes' -- my foot! I wouldn't touch UPS again (or an apologist for them) with a disinfected barge pole. I dedicate the shipping part of my life to putting them out of business.

[Dave Bryce]

Re UPS - you goofed on the packing, my friend. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Anything you ship, with any large carrier, needs to be able to take at least a 4 foot drop on any edge or surface. The original box might not even be this sturdy, but it certainly will not be if you remove the shock absorbers.

Agreed.

 

Soft cases are not really adequate for anything other than personal transportation and storage. Putting a soft case into an outer cardboard box will protect it some...but not much.

 

Bottom line is what Wes said - if you're not comfortable dropping a package from 4 feet on to any of its surfaces or corners, don't ship it.

 

dB

 

[timwat]

SoloInterface,

 

Not sure where anyone suggested a "right to drop boxes", or represented as an "apologist" for UPS here.

 

And, sounds like you had an unsatisfactory experience with UPS four years ago. Sorry about that. I suppose that's why the crusade to put Big Brown out of business. With a stock price of $115 and a market cap of $99B, that may be a tall task.

 

For the rest of us, we generally have 3 or 4 options at most how to send or receive large gear like keyboards:

 

FedEx

USPS

UPS (Big Brown)

???

 

And the simple truth is with each of those carriers, at some point in the food chain your big large keyboard box is likely to be handled in a less-than-desireable fashion. As such, common sense suggests packing with the original end blocks (when available), purchasing insurance, hoping for the best, taking appropriate recourse when the inevitable sh*t hits the fan...and resigning ourselves that there isn't a single one carrier that is substantially more excellent than the others.

 

At least not in my experience.

 

Tim

[ElmerJFudd]

Do you guys all keep original packaging for a keyboard you bought 10 years ago? I'd do it if space wasn't an issue. But then assuming you don't have it or the keyboard was already second hand when you got it. What's the recommended shipping technique?. A gator case in its cardboard box isn't going to do it? Slightly bigger box with Styrofoam puffs on the ends? All around?

[rickzjamm]

I worked for Fedex back in the nineties & yes boxes get thrown (not always but it happens) as the courier's are under enormous time crunch pressures!

Now that's no excuse (I've had my share of damaged parcel that I'd swear I packed correctly) but after serving time there as a courier & in upper management I observed that even the most well packed item can be damaged... always put more styrofoam, peanuts & than you think you'll need.

[Rusty Mike]

I appreciate all the feedback. I'm concerned about how this stuff is going to survive the return trip. I believe the buyer is going to not going to repack it himself, but take it as is to UPS. I'm going to call them in the morning.

 

SoloInterface - I sincerely hope your experience is an isolated one.

 

Elmer - I've been keeping all my boxes in anticipating of selling my instruments. This experience, however, has started me thinking about local buyers only.

 

I guess we will see. My wife keeps telling me it's only money, and not the end of the world. I'm kind of beating myself up over it, when I probably should not.

 

Thanks for the honesty everyone.

[seanl]

 

 

I keep all original boxes and all dense styrofoam that comes in it originally. When I ship I wrap keyboard in green contractors bag(s) and tape shut. Then I put that in another box and put foam board on all 6 sides. No hassles unless someone drives over it.

[HammondDave]

Always double box it!

[WesG]

Right. Those "original boxes", in many cases, are not designed to be shipped alone. They are often designed to shipped as part of a unit on a skid.

 

Best practice, IMO, is an over sized box with peanuts, housing the original box and its shock absorbers. To be really paranoid, wrap the original box in plastic.

 

Tape the seams with quality tape, and add an extra shipping label, taped right to the box, if you are using a document pouch. The tape should cover the label to waterproof it. Never use an inkjet printer to print shipping labels; only laser.

 

I shipped/received a lot of computer equipment in the 90s. I'm still on a first-name basis with the UPS driver in my zone.

 

Wes

[Ross Ward]

Do you guys all keep original packaging for a keyboard you bought 10 years ago? I'd do it if space wasn't an issue. But then assuming you don't have it or the keyboard was already second hand when you got it. What's the recommended shipping technique?. A gator case in its cardboard box isn't going to do it? Slightly bigger box with Styrofoam puffs on the ends? All around?

 

I don't have much experience in the way of shipping keyboards or other large items since I really haven't owned or sold that many of them. However, I've shipped my fair share of audio/studio gear, some of which is heavy. My typical approach with those, if I don't have the original packaging, is:

 

1. First and foremost, spend the money and buy an appropriately-sized box. If it's something worth more than a couple hundred bucks, I go to my local packaging store and buy a box that's the correct size, typically leaving myself a few of inches in each dimension. You want to allow room for sufficient packing materials, but not so much room that the object is going to gain any momentum and shift around inside the box when handled, which can happen even with packing materials inside. In other words, a box CAN be too big.

 

2. I usually take bubble wrap (big bubbles, not small), and go around the object a few times in each direction around the sides, and end-over-end.

 

3. As much as I hate to receive them in a box, I tend to prefer packing peanuts over air pillows for packing my own stuff. Usually I will put down a layer of peanuts a few inches deep in the bottom of the box, then put the item in, and then more peanuts, making sure that they're getting down in the sides and all of the nooks and crannies until the box is full. Make sure you use enough, but not too much. You don't want the box to bulge.

 

4. Sufficient tape make sure to put a couple of layers of tape on all seams and anywhere else that needs reinforcement. Also, use the "shipping grade" tape instead of regular packing tape. It's a little thicker and seems to hold up better.

 

I'm no professional by any means, but I've yet to have a buyer contact me regarding damage to a unit or insufficient packaging. Hope this helps!

[wineandkeyz]

If you don't have the original carton, check with your local professional bicycle shops for old shipping cartons. I've had very good luck re-using them to ship keyboards, although the carton may have to be cut down to size.

[MojoGuyPan]

local professional bicycle shops for old shipping cartons. I've had very good luck re-using them to ship keyboards

 

I second this suggestion. You can always get a bicycle box for free from your local bike shop. The bike boxes are heavy duty and thick and are long enough to hold any sized board and are the right height for most boards, you will need to cut down for length and depth. but with hot glue and tape, the sturdiness of the customized bicycle box will be second to none.

 

For packing material I recommend using two or three layers of big bubble wrap around the entire keyboard then add another 3 or 4 layers over each end block making sure to wrap around the corners. Basically the wrapped keyboard will look like a dog bone.

 

I've shipped at least a dozen synths like this and have never had a problem. It does take a good 30 to 45 minutes to cut down and make the box and that is a pain but you do get piece of mind when shipping and that is nice.

[DanL]

Re UPS - you goofed on the packing, my friend. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Anything you ship, with any large carrier, needs to be able to take at least a 4 foot drop on any edge or surface. The original box might not even be this sturdy, but it certainly will not be if you remove the shock absorbers.

Agreed.

 

Soft cases are not really adequate for anything other than personal transportation and storage. Putting a soft case into an outer cardboard box will protect it some...but not much.

 

Bottom line is what Wes said - if you're not comfortable dropping a package from 4 feet on to any of its surfaces or corners, don't ship it.

 

dB

 

I had a situation like this last year with a forum member, the keyboard was in a soft case in a box, and arrived damaged. UPS inspected and did the "inadequate packaging" thing. It wasn't an expensive piece of gear and the forum member returned my money. I offered to ship the damaged board back but he said to not worry about it.

 

I always overpack when I sell something. I keep the original cartons and then box them inside another bigger box with padding, or at least use other smaller boxes and open them up and apply an extra layer of cardboard around the outside and make sure the interior box is packed well.

[Rusty Mike]

I guess the lesson here is that you simply cannot be paranoid enough when shipping equipment.

[SoloInterface]

WANT ANOTHER ONE!!! This one was being shipped to me. I scored a deal on a V piano that was a demo from NAM a few years back. A $5000+ piano (I think they retailed for over $6K but I'm being fair) for a little over $2000. You might remember SweetWater or Musicians Friend was blow'n a few of these out on E-Bay. The keyboard had some cosmetic damage. UPS dropped this one too as well as my Rhodes. Busted the cheek on one side plus a few keys. SW or MF made good (not UPS) and I got my money back. But I miss the $3000 deal that was in my hands. There's a market here for competent shipping here. And, as for you apologists, UPS is not so big that that I can't ding it no matter it's market cap. Let me introduce you to the guitar player who challenged United Airlines for breaking his Taylor Guitar. EVERYBODY. YOU WILL LOVE THIS. sorry for the caps. And . . . sure . . .lets see if we can do it. MPN willing. I've started a new post. Maybe we can turn a ding into a dent. See .

 

Google or

 

Try the following URL to get to the same place. Dave Carroll more than dented United Airlines. Enjoy!!!

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=sfp&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&hspart=iry&p=united+breaks+guitars#id=1&vid=380fef48ae1b5e9d3da1d1fbc9554594&action=click

 

 

[WesG]

United eggregiously broke a guitar which was packed appropriately for the environment it was being shipped in.

 

UPS damaged a keyboard which was packed inappropriately.

 

Do you really not see the difference?

[Doerfler]

I had a situation like this last year with a forum member, the keyboard was in a soft case in a box, and arrived damaged. UPS inspected and did the "inadequate packaging" thing. It wasn't an expensive piece of gear and the forum member returned my money. I offered to ship the damaged board back but he said to not worry about it.

I messed up and I ate it. Lesson learned. Should have know better. Did know better. Never think it's going to be OK. Cause it's not.

[Rusty Mike]

Well, it provides more inspiration to just sell locally. I have a Marantz receiver that I was going to post up on eBay, but I'm now giving that some serious second thoughts.

 

UPS is picking the box up from the buyer today for inspection. The important thing for me to do is stop stressing and just consider it another chapter in the book of life lessons.

[El Lobo]

Always double box it!

Yes. And bubble wrap. And styrofoam. And everything else you can think of. I'm a sax player. On the Sax On The Web forum, packing a valuable horn for shipping is a regular topic. I recently had a horn shipped from New York to California. Arrived with no problems because the horn was wrapped and protected inside its case, the case was in a box with packing material protecting it, and that box was in a larger box, also cushioned by packing material. It could have been dropped off a loading dock or the back of a truck without damage to the horn. This is how you have to pack any musical instrument for shipping, or any easily breakable or damaged item for that matter.

[WesG]

When I pack particulary valuable items, I like build a sort of mini crate/skid out of wood inside the box, which touches at least all six corners. Then I pack the item inside the crate/skid, sometimes bolting the item to it (like a tube amp chassis).

 

The crate/skid pretty much ensures that there will be no injury that will change the shape of the container, but does not decrease shock. You can decrease shock with styrofoam sheets around the crate/skid. Peanuts can move.

 

Then you can pack the item inside with another layer of shock absorbsion. If I were packing a sax, I would have it in a hard case. If there were any slop inside the hard case, I would use small-bubble paper make sure the sax would not move inside. Especially under the bell. Then I would put the hard case in a sturdy box filled with styrofoam sheet and peanuts. If it were a *valuable* sax (say, a Mark VI), I would also use crate-in-the-box trick.

 

BTW - most of the major carriers now charge largely based on package dimensions rather than weight. So going with heavy packing materials (wood, high-density foam) is not the penalty it was before Jan 2015.

 

Wes

[EscapeRocks]

Luckily I have not had an issue shipping the couple keyboards I've sold on eBay.

 

along time ago I used to work the AOG parts center for a large aviation company. We shipped and received millions of dollars worth of avionics each year, including radar units and other sensitive equipment. Not once did we have to file a damage claim. UPS and DHL were our primary carriers.

 

We received items daily from Raytheon, Honeywell, Garmin, Cessna, Piper, Bombardier, Aviall, and others, and shipped daily to them as well instruments that needed repair or recertification.

 

That job is where I learned how to pack things for shipment.

 

 

 

 

[ProfD]

First, Mike stop stressing over the damaged item. Lesson learned.

 

Maybe in another life I worked in the pack and ship industry because I do whatever it takes to insure a package arrives intact. I haven't had an issue. Knock on wood.

 

As mentioned, the key is to make sure the valuable is well wrapped and cushioned on all sides inside the box. Tape job is important too. Double-box if necessary.

 

It pays to go the extra mile. Sometimes, sh8t happens anyway. Chin up. It will get sorted out.

[Rusty Mike]

The latest update on this adventure.

 

I received the boxes back from UPS yesterday. The PC3 box was pretty beat up. There are signs of water damage, parts of it are ripped and the edges are frayed. It looks like parts were re-taped, and there were pine needle fragments under some of the tape. I can't imagine what this thing went through.

 

The only visible damage to the PC361 is a broken right cheek block. Hopefully the electronics are ok. I'm taking it to the shop today for a diagnostic and repair estimate.

 

The upside is that UPS approved the claim. So my hope now is that Kurzweil/AM&S maintain an inventory of parts so the cheek block can be replaced. Approval or not, I would have a complete repair done.

 

I'm certainly less stressed about it all.

[wineandkeyz]

According to their website, Syntaur has the end caps in stock.