OT: Mariah Carey New Year's Eve Debacle

[MathOfInsects]

there is a discussion over on the livesound forum on reddit about the same thing with comments from some one supposedly working the sound that night.

 

the consensus:

 

the IEMs failed for whatever reason

 

songs 1 and 3 had high part vocals and harmony, two was a complete lip sync

 

for whatever reason the sound guy did not fold back the tracks into the wedges, whether Carey could even hear them if they were there is unknown

 

comments were made about the dancers hitting all the cues, consensus was that minimal music bass/rhythm were in their wedges and they performed from that music

 

Ms Carey did not make the rehearsal, again that would not have allayed the IEM failure, but she would have known the cues

 

head over there if you like to read a perspective from their POV HERE

 

This makes complete sense, based on what went down and how she seemed to be responding in real time.

[MathOfInsects]

Just to push....

 

Would you say Sgt Peppers and Pet Sounds were designed to be played by live bands?

 

Fair enough. Those were certainly the minority, though.

 

I am working on some sh*tty divorce papers so can't get quite as Socratic as I would like, but in short: on examination, no, they are not. Plenty of groups were purely creations of a producer's checkbook; the fact was just hidden from the public. The Ohio Express had a nice publicity campaign to introduce them to the public...but didn't exist. The Crystals were whoever Phil Spector had in the studio that day. In fact, he recorded one Crystals album while the current "The Crystals" were on tour. Obviously the Monkees are their own story. Steely Dan made records differently without the requirement that they be able to be played live (regardless of whether, later on, given higher resources and infinite prep time, they were). The Pet Sounds performance referred to here came nearly 40 years later, and without the players responsible for it (who were, in turn, not the Beach Boys, as people thought when they bought it).

 

The three-minute pop song--a relic of the limits of the wax cylinder--was itself a fiction. Most groups played for much longer, with different instrumentation, and greater improvisation. Once records formalized a "version" of a song, groups became bound to that version or faced rejection and failure. This goes back to the earliest days of the previous century, and is no newer when Carey does it, than it was when Burt Williams sang "coon songs" as a black man in blackface, since that's what the public expected black people to be, rejecting them as inauthentic when they wore their own face and sang their own material.

[TommyS]

This just in... Those damn Russians hacked into her IEMs!!!!! The nerve!!!!!!

[Doerfler]

[burningbusch]

Any music that was played by musicians in a studio OF COURSE can be played live by musicians.

 

I love Brian and his music, but the fact it took months in the studio to record Good Vibrations says to me a) he either didn't know how to get the sounds in his head into music or b) he didn't know exactly what he was looking for but used the studio to experiment until he finally found something that worked.

 

Arguably this recording is as musically complex as Pet Sounds but was recorded in a matter of hours by people who knew exactly what they were doing.

 

[video:youtube]

 

But more and more, elements or entire compositions are created "in the DAW." And, those robotic sequences and highly repetitive drum machine patterns are exactly what the artist intended and it could be that attempts to recreate those using live musicians is simply misguided.

 

Here's a Autechre sequence. Good luck doing this live?

http://dt7v1i9vyp3mf.cloudfront.net/styles/news_large/s3/imagelibrary/a/autechredpnwnwviii.jpg

 

I don't think this Mariah Carey thing is any big deal. She seemed to handle it well. I see it more a reflection of the need to make performances into a spectacle with the lights, visuals, dancing, music and vocals all tightly aligned, in reality reducing the "live" performers to mere pawns. I don't see this driven by the public's desire to only hear a perfect copy of the original recording. Prior to rock and the idea of cover bands, this was a completely foreign idea. In the first half of the 20th century, it was expected that an artist would develop his/her own interpretation of the song. And today, people are very open to remixes of "hits."

 

Busch.

[AnotherScott]

Any music that was played by musicians in a studio OF COURSE can be played live by musicians.

Well, sure, now that you can get the sound of a Minimoog or a Mellotron that can actually play in tune on demand, and you no longer need to actually have a pipe organ on stage to duplicate the sound of a pipe organ. ;-)

 

those robotic sequences and highly repetitive drum machine patterns are exactly what the artist intended

Sometimes I think the arpeggiator is the reason actual "music composition" has fallen by the wayside. Kinda wish it had never been invented.

[HammondDave]

Saw Billy Joel on New Years eve. Nothing was pre-recorded, synched, or anything else. Just great musicians playing and singing in key.

[area51recording]

Sinatra's song was of course the product of parts written by a great arranger being read down by great studio musicians. There were no moments of ad lib inspiration there, no happy musical accidents that made the final cut. I personally feel like Brain probably walked into the studio with something a bit more skeletal and then kind of took it from there....

[ElmerJFudd]

Saw Billy Joel on New Years eve. Nothing was pre-recorded, synched, or anything else. Just great musicians playing and singing in key.

 

That's not to say Rosenthal isn't taking advantage of all the most recent digital tech to recreate everything from the records with Mainstage, extensive MIDI routing and redundant racked Macs to replace vintage keys and real string and brass players.

[timwat]

I see the TMZ style stuff about Mariah Carey from time to time, like everyone does. But I'll never forget the Mike McKnight column in KB Mag from years back:

 

"Last year, at the end of Mariah Carey's tour my Father passed away. We were in Japan, and were supposed to go to Hong Kong but the Hong Kong promoter cancelled at the last minute, so we were sitting in Osaka for a few days so we could use the flights that were already booked to get us home. When Mariah heard that my Dad had passed away she made arrangements to fly me and Eric Daniels (Keyboardist) back to Boston immediately so I could be there for his funeral. She insisted on having Eric along just to keep me company, and make sure I was OK. She flew us first class, had a limo waiting for us in Boston, and put us up at a hotel, all at her expense. Mariah absolutely blew me away with her kindness and generosity, and even though she always had my love and loyalty, she's absolutely stuck with me forever now. I guess the point Iím trying to make here, is that on tour your family sometimes is the people you are working with."

 

I remember that McKnight has worked with some pretty big household pop names, but that Carey was the only one he told a story like this about. I presume when some divas get to that level of success they all have temptations to become diva-ish in their professional and personal life.

 

But this is the kind of anecdote that puts a human face on the pop star.

[MathOfInsects]

That's not to say Rosenthal isn't taking advantage of all the most recent digital tech to recreate everything from the records with Mainstage, extensive MIDI routing and redundant racked Macs to replace vintage keys and real string and brass players.

 

...and drummer to click, and rack-mounted pitch-correction for back-up singers (and probably BJ himself), and the helicopter sample on the Vietnam song, and I 1000% guarantee a pre-recorded lead and back-up vocal track for every song to be ridden up in case of mic or personal failure, and possibly even piano tracks for times when Billy's motorcycle accidents break his fingers again, and a host of other hidden assists.

[MathOfInsects]

the Mike McKnight column in KB Mag from years back...

 

Thanks for posting this. Great story.

[ElmerJFudd]

Sinatra's song was of course the product of parts written by a great arranger being read down by great studio musicians. There were no moments of ad lib inspiration there, no happy musical accidents that made the final cut. I personally feel like Brain probably walked into the studio with something a bit more skeletal and then kind of took it from there....

 

The stumbling and happy accidents happened over the course of Riddle's entire musical life. Learning what works, what doesn't, what if I do this or that. After 20 more years his work was deemed professional and worthy of trust by the record companies and biggest artists of his day. Even though the arranging and composition work was done up front in his mind (rather than on studio time) that doesn't imply liberties and interpretation aren't taking place in performance, particularly when you add the whims and ideas of the vocalist. It's just another way of working. Artists and engineers are much more efficient with the studio and DAW process after another 40 years of evolving tech and techniques.

[MathOfInsects]

those robotic sequences and highly repetitive drum machine patterns are exactly what the artist intended and it could be that attempts to recreate those using live musicians is simply misguided.

 

I'm so glad someone said this. Nicely put.

[mate stubb]

I'm kind of puzzled at the turn the conversation has taken. To the point of bands being locked into their studio versions or facing failure I riposte with:

 

Allman Brothers

Little Feat

Weather Report

[MathOfInsects]

POP bands.

[Dr88s]

This thread has become a rehash of others pondering the philosophical; are sampled horns played live by a keyboardist as 'authentic' (musically) as a horn section, is the use of an arpeggiator rather than playing a complex pattern live cheating, and so on. No clear answers emerge from those threads, nor will any emerge here.

 

All that is a long tangent from the original story. To be clear about my point there is no hate for Mariah Carey or DCP or anyone at all. As she herself said, sh!t happens sometimes. I am more disappointed with the trend of musical performance being more about the spectacle than the music. I really couldn't care less if you use 'tricks' to sound better, but when the music becomes an afterthought to the costumes, choreography, and effects - as I think it must given the widespread practice of playing pre-recorded music at "important" events- it lessens the entire value of the music and musician.

[AnotherScott]

I'm kind of puzzled at the turn the conversation has taken. To the point of bands being locked into their studio versions or facing failure I riposte with:

 

Allman Brothers

Little Feat

Weather Report

Tons of others. Really, I don't think it's even a pop band thing, as MOI said. If Mariah Carey wanted to do a new arrangement of one of her hits, I bet her fans would still love it. But of course, once you decide you're going to play with tracks, you're locked into whatever it is that's been programmed in. And I suppose, if you're going to play to tracks, you might as well use the ones you've already done.

[Synthaholic]

Arguably this recording is as musically complex as Pet Sounds but was recorded in a matter of hours by people who knew exactly what they were doing.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Busch.

 

Amen. Masterful. If there's anyone who doesn't get why Sinatra is so revered this clip is a good example.

[ElmerJFudd]

I'm kind of puzzled at the turn the conversation has taken. To the point of bands being locked into their studio versions or facing failure I riposte with:

 

Allman Brothers

Little Feat

Weather Report

Tons of others. Really, I don't think it's even a pop band thing, as MOI said. If Mariah Carey wanted to do a new arrangement of one of her hits, I bet her fans would still love it. But of course, once you decide you're going to play with tracks, you're locked into whatever it is that's been programmed in. And I suppose, if you're going to play to tracks, you might as well use the ones you've already done.

 

Hammond vs. Crumar anyone?

[Synthaholic]

Madonna could go out on tour with a 5 piece band (2 keyboardists) and do 2 hours of her hits totally live and I'd be there enjoying every minute. What she currently does (and has done) doesn't interest me at all.

 

And there are so many other acts I could say the same about.

[Michael Wright]

Hammond vs. Crumar anyone?

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3064/1537/1600/9%3A26%20ekelly3.jpg

Anything else is just a clown.

[ElmerJFudd]

Aaaaaand they're off....

 

http://www.robdedel.nl/wpimages/wpa8c8f144.gif

 

 

[hardware]

Super Bowl is really bad as the viewers exceed New Years.

Shania Twains performance was equally embarrassing.

Especially since Sting and Stefani followed and killed it since they actually sang.

Maria was lucky nobody followed her.

She use to kill it live before everyone started boring us with the Brittany Spears mating rituals that still torment the public.

[Barryjam]

What is distasteful for me, and what I observe over and over in these kinds of episodes, is the obfuscation (choosing a big word because it implies it is done on purpose) or cover-up confusing of two issues: equipment clitches and lip-syncing. Everyone rushes to blame the equipment or the people behind it, with the subtle or not-so-subtle implying that "naturally the artist couldn't sing or sing on key because he/she couldn't hear correctly," (sounds reasonable enough) when there was never any intention for the artist to sing much or at all. Us musos see through this easily because we know about monitoring and cues, but a lot of non-musicians do not even see auditory/visual mismatches and justifiably accept the equipment blaming wool over their eyes. If you are going to lip-sync, don't give out misinformation when it doesn't work.

[miden]

Saw Billy Joel on New Years eve. Nothing was pre-recorded, synched, or anything else. Just great musicians playing and singing in key.

 

Same with an Elton John show I saw in the old Sydney Entertainment Centre..about 10 years ago. It was a "All Hits-and Albums" show, and it was a big band and they played all the parts!

[El Lobo]

Much ado about nothing. The more technology-intense the production, the more likely something will go wrong.

[TommyS]

Man, that Sinatra video is awesome. Wow, masterfully played and masterfully sung.

[HammondDave]

Saw Billy Joel on New Years eve. Nothing was pre-recorded, synched, or anything else. Just great musicians playing and singing in key.

 

That's not to say Rosenthal isn't taking advantage of all the most recent digital tech to recreate everything from the records with Mainstage, extensive MIDI routing and redundant racked Macs to replace vintage keys and real string and brass players.

 

Nothing wrong with reproducing sounds with technology. The point is that he is PLAYING the parts.

[HammondDave]

That's not to say Rosenthal isn't taking advantage of all the most recent digital tech to recreate everything from the records with Mainstage, extensive MIDI routing and redundant racked Macs to replace vintage keys and real string and brass players.

 

...and drummer to click, and rack-mounted pitch-correction for back-up singers (and probably BJ himself), and the helicopter sample on the Vietnam song, and I 1000% guarantee a pre-recorded lead and back-up vocal track for every song to be ridden up in case of mic or personal failure, and possibly even piano tracks for times when Billy's motorcycle accidents break his fingers again, and a host of other hidden assists.

 

I don't think so... it was obvious from the light show and the performance (and subtle errors that the songs were not clicked or sequenced.... and he did not play Goodnight Saigon... but I am sure that the horn and metal clanking at the beginning of Allentown was pre-recorded, He had three excellent horn players and I heard no fills there.