stoken6 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Some ex-bandmates of mine are looking to put together a R&B/soul band featuring a horn section. We have alto, bari and trombone confirmed, and hoping to add a trumpet. Does anyone have any advice on resources for arranging for horn section in this context? (I've done the usual Svengling) Specifically - I'm a little concerned about a clash between trombone and bari sax, given similar register/"comfort zone". Cheers, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I'm no horn expert, but have played some funk w horn section. 'bone and bari cover a lot of the same ground. They are often used differently, though, think of the bari stabs in Greg Adam's arrangements for Tower of Power (at least, I think it was Greg Adam's who did those arrangements...someone please correct me if not). I personally find trumpet and tenor more pleasing in a small section than trumpet and alto, at least for ensemble parts. Trumpet and alto in an exposed section can tend to be shrill to my ear. Have done a little writing for trumpet / tenor / 'bone and have usually liked the results. Losing the 'bone of course you lose some heft and depth, but not so much that the ship sinks under the waves. In fact, with a full R&B rhythm section (keys, drums, bass and guitar), I've gotten by with trumpet / tenor quite well. You get the sense of a real horn section, lots of the iconic parts (September, This Time It's Real, Give It To Me Baby, etc.) sound represented...without having too many mouths to feed...something to think about if you're planning to play to make money. Of course, adding 'bone or bari provides that muscular lower octave - but do the math and see what normal hiring rates are in your area... If you're going to roll your own arrangements, suss out which of the horn players has some experience and pick his brain. I did this a lot when I started, as well as experimenting with 3rd vs. 4th voicings, trying things out, and the like. I was very fortunate in that I had some very patient horn players who were willing to indulge me when I started trying to write a little. Hope that helps a little. Tim .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 About bari vs. trombone: Either give them unisons or octaves in the low register in strong passages, *or* keep them at least one tenth apart, better yet a twelfth. If both are in their higher range, you could try assigning them a fifth, but there's always the risk to make your chords muddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesG Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I've often thought that trumpet, tenor sax, and bass trombone would make an amazing three-voice horn section. I gotta say, I LOVE bass trombone. Trumpet and alto are pretty close together where they are meaty, so what timwat said about shrillness. Tenor gets deep enough that you can pull off some low "bah-dup" parts that sound like "saxophone!" to the untrained ear. And it also has better visual stage presence than alto. Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3 Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9 Roland: VR-09, RD-800 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Dislike alto myself also. Trumpet and tenor sax is like eggs and bacon. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Greg did tons of the TOP charts and so did our own Dave Eskridge. Buy this and it will answer a ton of questions for you and really help you out. Well worth the $$ https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Arranger-Sammy-Nestico/dp/1502745119 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Arranger-Sammy-Nestico/dp/1502745119 Amazing book. I'll say this: #1 a trumpet is almost indispensable. The T.O.P. sound is actually 2 trumpets. Not to cross pollinate with my recent post in the shameless plug section, but that video I posted of my band was a good example of a big 2 trumpet on top and Bari on bottom sound. Trumpet gives you that brassy pierce above everything. #2 Bari and Trombone won't clash as much as you think. The trombone is a TENOR trombone. Give the bari the bass duties and have the trombone double at the octave or use the trombone for much middle voice goodness. Exploit the octave from Middle C to above middle C. Don't be scared of the ledger lines, the majority of trombone writing for a pop band lives in this register. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 Thanks all, particularly Bobby. I've tried to keep Bari and Trombone an octave apart in unisons - Bari just falling off the treble clef, trombone in the middle of the stave. Re: choice of instruments - our alto player has been "in our gang" for decades. He's a very powerful, meaty player. It's difficult to find a comparison - think Clarence Clemons on alto, perhaps? (He plays tenor as well, but alto is his natural space, where he expresses himself most naturally). I'll need to hear my arrangements played live to be sure (Sibelius playback just doesn't cut it) but I'm hoping that the trombone can take the place of a tenor sax, and I'll hear what this guy's alto does vs a trumpet. Cheers, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonizer Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 For most songs it will not matter whether the sax player is holding a tenor or an alto sax in his hands. If playing an alto sax, the player needs to understand that the horn goes all the way down to low Bb with no octave key (Db concert), and that on the alto, notes above alto sax G with the octave key (Bb concert) rarely appear in horn ensemble parts. I play mainly alto, and have transcribed and played many horn songs and used my alto. I'm playing from the middle F with octave key and lower almost all the time, except during solos. The potential problem with alto sax is that a lot of the better sax players played lead alto in jazz band during high school and college, and got in the habit of playing in the upper register all of the time (I was like this for a while). This does not work in a R&B or rock horn section. Trombone does not have to be low - tbone up high can add an incredible amount of kick. Many of the old Chicago horn songs from their prime era had two trombones in the studio recordings - one up high with the other horns, and the other down low playing longer "splat" notes. A bari could take over the bass bone parts in some cases. If you have a female lead singer with some grit, your horn section could allow you to do Amy Winehouse's "You Know I'm No Good". Read the words. Another possible song is the Huey Lewis "Live at 25" version of "Heart of Rock and Roll". I agree with the others that trumpet is really important. A trumpet plus sax is an ideal combination, like an oreo cookie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cedar Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I'm hoping that the trombone can take the place of a tenor sax, and I'll hear what this guy's alto does vs a trumpet. Trombonist once told me that the trombone/tenor actually occupy a very similar range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Paxton Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 To the OP: I once saw a funk band whose horn section consisted of two bones and an alto, and it sounded incredibly full and ballsy. Didn't miss the trumpet at all. (I don't know whether one of the bones was a bass.) So yeah, if you can get a trumpet in there too that will definitely make things easier, but it is possible to get a nice full sound without it. And I would think the bari would make that even easier. Little-known fact: the horn section on "Superstition" was just one trumpet and one tenor, each double-tracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I'm hoping that the trombone can take the place of a tenor sax, and I'll hear what this guy's alto does vs a trumpet. Trombonist once told me that the trombone/tenor actually occupy a very similar range. That was the Crusader's sound for many years. Smooooth. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Little-known fact: the horn section on "Superstition" was just one trumpet and one tenor, each double-tracked. Thanks for that! I did not know that, and I'm going to go back and listen again. One more reason I love this forum. tim .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I'm hoping that the trombone can take the place of a tenor sax, and I'll hear what this guy's alto does vs a trumpet. Trombonist once told me that the trombone/tenor actually occupy a very similar range. They do. They are both, quite literally, the 'tenor' instruments of their families. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave E Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Joe Muscara messaged me about this thread. I had no idea the board was up and going again. Glad to see its back! I hear the question about what horns to use pretty often.... In my opinion, it's all about the players. It's more important to find guys that play well together than it is to fill specific instruments. Maceo plays lead over his section very well (Aalto, Tenor and Bone) and I don't miss the Trpt. Chase was 4 Trpts, Bonarama is 4 Bones. Steely Dan used just 3 saxes live for a while... And on and on. The classic TOP sound was a practical solution more than an orchestration choice. Doc and Emilio wrote the songs, and they played saxes. They needed a soloist, so they added another sax. Greg wrote the arrangements and plays great Trpt, but he's more of a soloist than he is a lead player (most guys are one or the other), so they had another Trpt player to play lead. To the OP: email me and I'll give you some stuff to get started: dave@eskridgemusic.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 The master speaks! Really interesting history on the various horn sections, especially the TOP info. Thanks for sharing. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Hey Dave what 3 saxes did Steely Dan use live? 2 tenors and an alto? I love the 2 tenor sound on 'Glamour Profession'. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave E Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Might have been 3 Tenors... It's been a while. It was Bob Shepard and Cornelius Bumpus and one other guy when I saw them. Might have been the same section on the live CD from the late 90's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Tweed Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 I'm hoping that the trombone can take the place of a tenor sax, and I'll hear what this guy's alto does vs a trumpet. Trombonist once told me that the trombone/tenor actually occupy a very similar range. That was the Crusader's sound for many years. Smooooth. I played in a very good funky band in the 70s with tenor and trombone and we naturally did a few of the crusaders tunes. Bottom line - a very big fat sound. We used to get a lot of trumpet sit ins and they could work off the same charts to quicky add that trumpet brightness to the sound. We had some great nights. I saw Wolfman Washington at DBAs in NO a couple of years ago, and it took me right back to those days (although he may not have had the same horn lineup exactly). Legend Soul 261, Leslie 251, Yamaha UX1, CP4, CK61, Hammond SK1, Ventilator, Privia PX3, Behringer 2600, Korg Triton LE, various guitars and woodwinds, drum kits … Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Man, this board is cool. Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted June 29, 2016 Author Share Posted June 29, 2016 To the OP: I once saw a funk band whose horn section consisted of two bones and an alto, and it sounded incredibly full and ballsy. Didn't miss the trumpet at all. (I don't know whether one of the bones was a bass.) So yeah, if you can get a trumpet in there too that will definitely make things easier, but it is possible to get a nice full sound without it. And I would think the bari would make that even easier. That's kind of what I'm hoping. As I mentioned, our alto guy has a very full, bright, powerful sound anyway. Joe Muscara messaged me about this thread. I had no idea the board was up and going again. Glad to see its back! Great to have your contribution Dave. I hear the question about what horns to use pretty often.... In my opinion, it's all about the players. It's more important to find guys that play well together than it is to fill specific instruments. That's what I'm hoping. I need to hear the guys together and see what happens. If the trombone is strong in the mid/upper register and the bari can honk confidently, I think we might just be cool. To the OP: email me and I'll give you some stuff to get started: Mail sent. Man, this board is cool. Ain't that the truth. Cheers, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Quinn Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 Greg did tons of the TOP charts and so did our own Dave Eskridge. Buy this and it will answer a ton of questions for you and really help you out. Well worth the $$ https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Arranger-Sammy-Nestico/dp/1502745119 Thanks Linwood. I just ordered the book you recommended. I've been writing some horn arrangments recently and I'm sure it will help. https://alquinn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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