Subwoofer recommendations

[Groove58]

In our 4-piece soul/jazz lounge band (vocal, guitar, drums, keys = Hammond XK1c + Kurzweil SP4-7), we run everything direct into FOH, including the guitar (through a cabinet simulator) and the drums (electric).

 

We use a pair of JBL EON 515XTs, which work fine for us (mostly small venues with 100-150 people). We are wondering (a) whether a subwoofer would make a significant difference to the sound, and if so, (b) what compact models would be recommended.

 

(We thought a JBL EON 518S should be a good match, but it appears to be discontinued.)

[J. Dan]

Budget?

 

A lot of the sound companies around here have used some of the older Turbosound cabinets and they sound great. I don't know if the newer Turbosound active subs are comparable are not.

 

I've used Mackie's and they're pretty decent.

 

We actually use subs that I built myself long ago before they did things like integrate stands into the enclosure, so I did it myself.

[Bif_]

+1 one the Mackie. Lot's of power and flexibility. Most in the same price range probably have the same level of control.

 

I have firsthand experience with the Mackie, hence my recommendation for it. Should be a good match for what you have.

[JeffLearman]

Subs make the best speaker stands ever! Good for you Dan, to figure that out before the manufacturers did.

 

Genius is pointing out what everyone agrees is obvious, but only AFTER it's pointed out.

 

Subs are a bit heavy but they take less floor space and sound a lot better than tripods.

[ProfD]

In our 4-piece soul/jazz lounge band...We are wondering (a) whether a subwoofer would make a significant difference to the sound, and if so, (b) what compact models would be recommended.

IMO, a sub will definitely make a difference.

 

Since the JBL EON 518S is discontinued, I would consider a JBL PRX715XLF or PRX718XLF. They are both powered and have an internal crossover. That makes it easier to plug and play in conjunction with the 515XTs.

[J. Dan]

Subs make the best speaker stands ever! Good for you Dan, to figure that out before the manufacturers did.

 

Genius is pointing out what everyone agrees is obvious, but only AFTER it's pointed out.

 

Subs are a bit heavy but they take less floor space and sound a lot better than tripods.

 

I made these back in the 90s, believe it or not. And I made my own active crossover as well, because all the readily available ones for PA applications had minimum crossover points around the 120Hz range and I wanted to cross it over at 80Hz.

 

Anyway, I took parts from Ultimate Support speaker stands (I just bought the parts, not the whole stands) and built them into the enclosure. I built a sub-enclosure around the plastic compression fitting that tightens around the pole so it didn't "leak". I used threaded rod through a tube to the back of the cabinet and had a recessed Hex head. My dad machined an aluminum handle at work and I attached it to a socket, and that's what I used to loosen/tighten. I think that design is unique still to this day compared to what is available, in that I can adjust the height.

[Theo Verelst]

Designing sub woofers or large cabinet, large cone speakers looks a bit easy, but the Thiele/Small parameters prove otherwise. To keep the units light and small is a steep contrast with keeping up power, low distortion and far reaching low end demands. I know from not all too scientifically deep (I don't get paid for it) analysis that even at 1% (one hundredth) an added signal to compensate for enclosure boominess can make the difference between pretty ok and decent enough for high quality. Yet I suspect most people with subs do not reach well working "feel it and enjoy it" sound levels from a few hundred watts of sub, but mostly remain at some form of half resonant low addition to the main speakers. The latter is a lot easier to achieve than using high quality (analog) amps with which well made large cone subs are kept from distorting in certain well audible ways by adding Milliwatt signals for compensation, like I do.

 

T.

[J. Dan]

Designing sub woofers or large cabinet, large cone speakers looks a bit easy, but the Thiele/Small parameters prove otherwise. To keep the units light and small is a steep contrast with keeping up power, low distortion and far reaching low end demands. I know from not all too scientifically deep (I don't get paid for it) analysis that even at 1% (one hundredth) an added signal to compensate for enclosure boominess can make the difference between pretty ok and decent enough for high quality. Yet I suspect most people with subs do not reach well working "feel it and enjoy it" sound levels from a few hundred watts of sub, but mostly remain at some form of half resonant low addition to the main speakers. The latter is a lot easier to achieve than using high quality (analog) amps with which well made large cone subs are kept from distorting in certain well audible ways by adding Milliwatt signals for compensation, like I do.

 

T.

 

That was the other issue back when I designed mine - most of the commercially available ones weren't really subwoofers in the sense we know them these days. They were designed for maximum efficiency and were very large enclosures, but not very low frequency response. They usually were crossed over pretty high. In my case, crossing them over much lower and doing small to mid sized rooms, I was able to get a pretty clean tight response down to about 38Hz using a pair of 18" drivers in reasonably sized tuned enclosures (6.5 cu feet each, as I recall) and about 1600W of power. I did the initial design using software and the factory published T-S parameters, looking at maximum acoustic power, group delay, etc. When I got the speakers in, I tested them myself to get the ACTUAL T-S parameters and made modifications to my design to accommodate. The main result from the actual vs published is that they ended up being about 2dB less sensitive than published. But they are also only rated 500W each, and I've pumped FAR more than that into them with no audible distortion. All in all, I've been very happy with them and have used them in 3 different bands over the last 20 years or so in a variety of room sizes and venues.

[J. Dan]

Aside from the above, a few comments....

 

Personally, I don't like any of them that use bandpass enclosures. They get more output/efficiency out of them, but the response is basically a big bump over a narrow range and you have all kinds of phase shift and group delay going on...essentially not tight or smooth at all. Generally if you can't see the speaker cone (it's completely enclosed inside), it's likely a bandpass.

 

Second, regarding DSP. It can be a good thing because EQ, time alignment, and other corrections can be tailored specifically to that driver (or drivers). Also, protection circuits can allow you to drive the speaker closer to its limits without the worry of damage. But keep in mind that often what that means, is there is compensation that will make the frequency response look good - and it is that good, with compensation at lower levels, but as you run it at higher levels, you won't get that response. It may say 40Hz-150Hz frequency response, and 127dB max SPL. But that doesn't mean it can do 40Hz at 127dB. The maximum acoustic power is limited by the volume of air it can move - cone area x linear excursion - and the more excursion you have, the more distortion you get with it. So there's just no substitute for large cone speakers. So even if you don't think you'll need it, go with larger cones - 18's. Don't mess with 12's or even 15's for subs.

[Theo Verelst]

When I just upgraded to the (mechanically and electronically self designed/built) system I use very day, I had a demonstration at a large musical instruments trade show, in a large lobby. The sub is 500W "max", and fed by a bridged amp that has a 300W quality toroid transformer, and it at max should be able to drive say a 130 Volt top/top up to a 10 amp current limit. That is quite loud when used right. Compared to a big kilowatts PA: very small, thought. In a home situation, when well used, it could break hard glass, probably, way not needed, normally, but the dynamic range is good, and the amp harm. dist. specs of less then 0.005 percent at 50W is very cool. It's nice to see that under 40 Hz frequency range come to life a bit when doing a microphone with reasonable 1/3 octave frequency analysis (non-fft) when putting the sub on, I enjoy that (and so do others).

 

Designing a bass amp for band is whole different story though.

 

T.

[stoken6]

Following the slightly-OT tangent, my band were early to the subwoofer party with a Celestion SubStation 18 passive sub. Heavy, but nice sound. Not bandpass, and dual-voice coil - Celestion wired each coil to one of stereo channels (post-crossover, of course), which meant you could use one of them with a pair of (passive) tops and no external active crossover.

 

We still use it to this day, driven from an equally vintage Spirit PowerStation.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[BluesKeys]

take a look at Yamaha powered subs. Lots of power and never overheat. Had the Mackies overheat when used outside.

[Bill H.]

We use a pair of JBL EON 515XTs, which work fine for us (mostly small venues with 100-150 people). We are wondering (a) whether a subwoofer would make a significant difference to the sound, and if so, (b) what compact models would be recommended.

 

Getting back to the original subject here... yes it will make a huge difference. I honestly can't believe you're running your whole band through just Eons in front of 150 people - and are living to tell about it.

 

Anyway, I'd approach this as a project to gradually upgrade your whole system eventually. Get one (or preferably two) subs at first, then replace those Eons - staying with one brand for the whole thing.

 

The powered speaker market is so competitive, and there are many good choices. Personally I think the Yamaha DSR and DXR series are pretty decent and I'd put them on your short list.

 

Although 18" subs are better, personally I think 15s would do for this app (soul/jazz).

 

Now onto the divergent subject I've built several sets of subs over the years. My latest project was a set of 21" B&Cs built to a box provided on their website. The drivers are touring grade, and are used in manifold systems for festivals and large events. I use them when I DJ and am not on a house system.

 

Awesome subs with tons of low end. The ladies love to twerk on them! I'll be using them this weekend for an outdoor gig on a club plaza.

 

[timwat]

Agree with the consensus - will definitely make a substantial difference. The larger backline companies I've dealt with all unanimously endorse pairs of subs (rather than one) despite the "Isn't bass omnidirectional" line of inquiry. "Omnidirectional" vs. "localization" is another topic (at what frequency can a human being no longer determine where the source of a sound is coming from) which has more elements to consider.

 

They recommend pairs for the sake of headroom, and more importantly, because they reduce liability as each sub provides a mounting point for your main speaker that is more stable than a standard speaker tripod, when a drunk patron trips into it.

 

Good on Dan for figuring that out first.

[Theo Verelst]

Agree with the consensus ....

unanimously endorse pairs of subs (rather than one) despite the "Isn't bass omnidirectional"...

 

Sure, that's a good point. Will depend on the impulse response and it's distorion, and the type of venue: it can get more complex and phase problems are more likely.

 

I like a good stack of speakers, probably the only way that works decent, and of course has been used many times.

 

There's also the aspect of air getting pumped from one speaker of the other, and them modulated. Sound exotic, but that's often part of a PA sound design.

 

T.

[J. Dan]

Although 18" subs are better, personally I think 15s would do for this app (soul/jazz).

That's a good point, I hadn't really thought about that, though many 15's may not have the low end response for the bass - should be something to pay attention to. Low E on a bass is something like 41-42 Hz?

 

My latest project was a set of 21" B&Cs built to a box provided on their website.

 

Those are pretty pricey, are they not?

[JeffLearman]

You may not be able to tell which direction the bass is coming from, but the location of the subwoofer(s) can make a huge difference.

[Bill H.]

That's a good point, I hadn't really thought about that, though many 15's may not have the low end response for the bass - should be something to pay attention to. Low E on a bass is something like 41-42 Hz?

 

My concern would be their electronic kit too. The kick would really benefit from the extra cone area of 18s. But sometimes bands don't get 18s because they just don't have room to get them around. In that case I think 15s would do, and are definitely better than nothing. But we're pretty much in agreement here.

 

My latest project was a set of 21" B&Cs built to a box provided on their website.

 

Those are pretty pricey, are they not?

 

The drivers (BC21sw152s) price fluctuate with the price of neodymium because there's a lot of it in there, but I think they're under a grand nowadays. I bought two of them for an insane price (under $600 each) from an outfit that was originally going to put them in a monstrous car stereo but never got around to it. They're rated for a ton of power - I'm currently running about 2400 watts RMS into each sub.

 

The boxes are a pretty simple bass reflex provided by B&C and are actually not all that much bigger than a single 18. They weigh around 125 pounds and I can move them myself.

 

I'll try to get some twerky pics this weekend if I can get off the rised area they've got me DJing from

[J. Dan]

I checked them out on Parts Express - I think around $680 each for the raw drivers. Insane specs though - 15mm Xmax (60mm peak to peak), 4000W max power, freq response down to 30Hz. Only 96dB 1W/1M though, so I'd imagine you got to feed them plenty of power. Still with that size and excursion, I'm sure they can actually convert that into real low frequency energy, not just heat.

[ITGITC]

 

 

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/38/fc/18/38fc182e62d4ab4dbcf3dd039007a7ad.jpg

 

 

 

[Groove58]

Thanks for all the helpful replies. It sounds like a subwoofer will make a significant difference, so we'll give it a go.

 

Budget is less of a concern than size (needs to fit into a car along with other gear). I can see that bigger is better and that two is better than one, but for transportability, we'll probably need to make do with a single 15" for now (if that would still make a noticeable difference?)

 

I note comments on bandpass vs lowpass; what are the considerations here?

 

I note the Yamaha recommendations; someone else has also mentioned a Yamaha DXS15 so we might give that a try (I note that this is a bandpass type), or the JBL PRX715XLF .

 

I like the last suggestion also.

[J. Dan]

Yeah, I'd stay away from bandpass.

 

Single 15? Not really doing much for you. I'd at least do a pair.

 

Anyway, I suppose I'd compare these.

[Groove58]

Yeah, I'd stay away from bandpass.

 

Can you elaborate on this (i.e., what are the pros and cons of bandpass vs lowpass)?

 

Single 15? Not really doing much for you. I'd at least do a pair.

 

Now I'm confused whether, if we only can only manage a single 15" for now, it will be worthwhile or not (given that low distortion is more important to us than high volume; we want to hear clear bass tones, not just booming and thumping).

[J. Dan]

I think I explained the issues with bandpass when I first mentioned it.

 

Read it.

 

also, with single 15, I'm pretty sure I thoroughly explained this with regard to surface area, excursion, and acoustic energy....again...

 

Read it.

[JeffLearman]

Short answer for issues with bandpass or transmission-line speakers: they're boomy and resonant (they keep ringing after the bass signal goes away). Opposite of full and crisp. They can make your chest thump, though, and for a lot of listeners, that's what matters most.

[Delaware Dave]

Compact size, weight and price? Have a look at a pair of these.

 

klonk

 

We've been using these for 10 years. Have had a couple of issues with the built in amps but they have seen hundreds of gigs so no doubt things tend to break down from time to time. They are 2' cubed. $499. We did an outdoor gig last night and when a guest k/b player came up to play I went out about 50 yards. The bass/bass drum and hammond came through nicely.

[keyman27]

I have a QSC KW181. It's got nice wheels and isn't ridiculously heavy. Got a floor model from Guit Center for 799.

 

Keep in mind that you should only be running the kick drum, the bass guitar, and the keyboards through the subs. It's nice if you can use an AUX out to choose what goes to the subs.

[Groove58]

Thanks for the further replies.

 

That Carvin unit looks to be good for size, weight, and value.

 

However, as we'll probably see how we go with a single subwoofer initially, I gather we'll need one with a pair of stereo inputs (which the Carvin LS1801A doesn't appear to have) and high-pass filterable outputs (which the QSC KW181 doesn't appear to have), or else use some kind of outboard crossover?

 

Someone also mentioned the Behringer B1200D, (12") which I gather might not do much for us, or the B1500D (15", 42 kg/93 lb) or B1800D (18", 54 kg/119 lb), which look good for value but are heavier than others, and I have heard comments about robustness/reliability of Behringer products (although I have been using a couple of their mixers for several years with no problems)?

[Groove58]

Update: I managed to find a used JBL EON 518S (18") subwoofer to go with our JBL EON 515XTs, and yes, it does make a significant difference.

 

(I also found a rolling bag for it ... the sub is not particularly heavy at 30 kg/65 lb, but this makes it easier to transport.)

 

One question: what are the pros and cons of having the 120 Hz high-pass filter in the sub's loop-through outputs switched out or in (i.e., having everything or just the high frequencies going through the top boxes)? Does it boil down to something like "more bass" versus "less distortion"?

 

[J. Dan]

I would use it to allow the tops to run cleaner and also avoid any weird phasing between them and the subs at that range.