Opinions on VB3 Organ

[bennyray]

Never used one but had a friend on the phone this morning saying it would blow away Kronos Organs. I know Kronos organs are not the best but are very good. I listened to utube videos but hard to really tell. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I have some killer organs in my Kronos that i programmed just hard to imagine a software organ being all that.

[CEB]

VB3 is very good. The Mojo is VB-3.

[Steve Nathan]

just hard to imagine a software organ being all that.

 

It is

[bennyray]

Is it comparable to the SK1 organ?

[I-missRichardTee]

The true answer is, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Neither is a killer B3. The other factor is the Leslie.. a B3 by definition, means a Leslie.

The other factor is what kind of music. The kind of music is a major factor. For shall we say, non jazz music, the Kronos ( CX3 ) organ is quite good.

Mainly in a jazz setting where the tone is very exposed, do distinctions clearly show up. I own both. I was surprised to see that I actually like the CX3 in some ways BETTER than any organ clone. You just have to try them out in various contexts.. which means borrow, rent, or buy them.

For a jazz trio the Mojo is better. For rock CX3 kicks ass and the Mojo is no slouch either.

I first bought ( 2005 ) an Xk3 ( I believe that is the model from Suzuki )

I ended up returning the Suzuki and got the CX3. I was surprised that a certain "undefined something" in the CX3 was BETTER than the Suzuki!

fast forward to now, I feel the same way about comparing CX3 ( Kronos) to Mojo (VB3 ) there is a hard to define quality in CX3 that I prefer to even the highly rated VB3.

I can only say it in these terms: I prefer bass lines on CX3 to any clone, and maybe even a B3. It is STRONG.

With the right hand ( solo ) it depends on the settings used. In some ways the CX3 falls flat in solo mode. But other settings, it can sound really convincing.

 

I could use some help in terms of defining.. but there is something Strong and immediate about the Korg CX3 Kronos that no other organ quite has.

But put a Mojo into a Leslie, and wow.. that is pretty serious authenticity.

I tried CX3 into a Leslie, and was underwhelmed. The effects in the CX3 seem to be an irreducible part of the total sound that I did not want to bypass when trying the real Leslie with CX3. But Suzuki and VB3 become augmented with the real Leslie.

Other opinions on my thoughts would help... Jim Alfredson, Moe, Hammond Dave, others??

[HammondDave]

Well, I was a consultant for the new Kronos CX3 sound engine, so I have my biases. I thought that Jerry did an excellent job with it. It sounds 100% better than the older Kronos CX3. And that sounded better than the original CX3. Understand that there are still major musicians playing old CX3's, so it is still is a great clone. I heard some old recordings of my band when I played one and it sounds excellent. And that was before the Vent! I love that sound.

 

For more mellowed tones I also like the VB3, but for some reason I don't like the sound through a Vent. Go figure...

 

Gigged with an XK3c and XKLC for several years and loved it. Mostly for the authentic ergonomics. The sound and action worked great for my style of playing. I like more of the Brian Auger / Jon Lord in your face aggressive Hammond sounds. I play it like a guitar.

 

I am not a huge fan of the new SK organs. They really f**ked up the user interface with buttons and controls all over the place. Just lay it out like a Hammond console, dammit! And Hammonds using draw-faders? Really? Plus I am not a fan of the keyboard's action. To me the action on the XK3c is the best of all clones. That is because they did not use the typical Fatar keyboard that everyone else uses. That's another reason why I like my Motif XS7. It's a very unique and tight keyboard.

 

I do like the Mojo and the new HS3 organs, from what I heard of them on YouTube, but I never playe one,.. and I am a real stickler about the the keyboard action (have you figured that out yet?).

 

So the bottom line is... They all sound good. You just need to find the one that works for you the best!

[bennyray]

Yea, i am biased to the Kronos Organs as well. I have tweaked some sounds and have them screaming. Guess i am old school and not really into software so much as far as purchasing. Thanks for the input. From what i heard on utube the VB3 would be a great choice for a jazz or gospel musician. Leaning toward the Sk1 but in no hurry only because of the splits, layers,etc. I traveled with a chopped white M3 organ with 145 Leslie for years. Do you remember the Multivox leslie sim around 1982-83 somewhat like the Vent but really bad. Used the Multivox for about a year and before retiring all Hammond and leslies for traveling.

[ElmerJFudd]

Just for more confusion, if you're thinking about Software and are the type to carry a Mac Book and maybe a Studio Logic controller with draw bars, EVB3 which comes with Logic is pretty good. I think it sounds different but comparable to VB3, particularly when played in band setting and you also get tons of FX and amps, as well as other good sounding instruments like EVP88 for your electro mechanical pianos.

 

However, the software + controller thing may not have enough vibe. Studio Logic/Fatar has a pretty legit sounding Numa Organ 2 which undercuts everyone price wise. I have read great and not so great posts on it, not about the sound but getting a working unit. But if you buy from a place like Kraft. They'll let you return it, no problem if you're not happy.

 

I'm also a fan of the XK3c. I think it feels great to play it. The action, layout, draw bars, and other switches and such are great. It plays much better than any of the Nords IMHO.

[bennyray]

I like the XK3 but at this point i really need other sounds in the keyboard as well in case i do not wanna move Kronos around. But not really looking at organ only but it is main emphasis on this keyboard that i am looking to purchase in a few months.

[ElmerJFudd]

Yeah that's a tough call. In which case you look at the SK1 or if you have synth and string parts to cover in addition to organ, you look at the VR-09. Or a used VR-700 which is also a niche instrument in this category where organ is important but not all you need to do. Build wise and action I think you'll prefer the VR-700. I'm not a fan of the action on the VR-09 or the FA-06.

 

What if you go the other direction and swap the Kronos 8 for a 6 and just get something like a PX-5S or CP4 or RD-800 for downstairs.

[bennyray]

No way i use the K2 88 for alot of splits and layers. I do not like any roland organs. Probably get the SK1 later or Nord E4 or 5.

[JeffLearman]

It seems to me that real Hammonds and Leslies varied more than these clonewheels do. If you can't make good Hammond music with any of them, the problem isn't the clonewheel. With any instrument you play, some tricks that worked on X just won't work on Y, and there are tricks that work on Y that just don't quite cut it on X. That's true of clonewheels and Hammonds.

 

Admittedly there's something special about the real thing, especially a Leslie.

 

Funny thing. Not long ago I played in the 3rd of 4 bands, outdoors at a biker bar. The 4th band had pro sidemen, a few tiers above my hobby semi-pro level; good guys in the area, but certainly not national level. The keyboard player asked me what I was playing (Nord Electro 2), and he said he really liked how it sounded on Gimme Some Lovin', and that he couldn't quite get that on his rig. So I asked and was really surprised to hear him say Kronos!

 

I suspect he's not doing it right. Kronos should nail GSL. Perhaps it's because I had my own stereo rig, not using house PA, with my speakers each side of the drums, whereas he was using the house PA.

 

I agree with Hammonddave about the XK3c action. It's the only clonewheel that feels like a Hammond to my fingers. That's not a big deal to me, but I'm impressed how good a job they did with the action and controls layout, replicating the experience without all the weight.

 

Regarding VB3, I've only used it at home, never live, but it rocks. I used Native Instruments B4 (with drawbar box) for about 5 years but switched to Nord Electro 2 for convenience and to get an upper tier. I still prefer the sound of NIB4, and VB3 is even better, but I'm delighted to have as good a clonewheel as the NE2 in such a light and easy package.

 

I suspect that if I had a Kronos, I wouldn't bother dragging out a laptop to play VB3. But if I had the laptop for other reasons, I'd definitely give it a try. For the price, you can hardly beat it, and it's also great to be able to use in the studio. (It's great not having to have the keyboard if I make a MIDI track change, for example.)

 

PS: The Kronos organ is a software organ. Thus the eyerolls above, in case you didn't get it. Everything on the Kronos is software, because that's what it is: a computer inside a keyboard.

 

Even the other popular modern clonewheels are really "software" too, just software on signal-processing processors rather than general purpose ones. In the end, it's just numeric processing and bits, either way, unless you're talking about the old analog CX3, or a true Hammond.

[ElmerJFudd]

Do you drag out the S90ES and the Kronos 2 88?

 

I'd love an XK-3c, but it's 43lbs and obviously with this much attention to getting the organ vibe right, it's not going to cover my synth parts. And my S90ES is 49lbs. So the pair would be a back breaker. When I need 2, the XP-80 still fills in nicely, and I prefer the action on it to most things Roland is making right now. It's just a little unnecessarily wide with the 3.5" floppy/volume/faders/pitch&mod way out left and the organs leave something to be desired. So actually nothing in my rig right now is doing justice to organ the way the clone wheels are (and certainly not a Leslie effect).

 

Have not come up with a great plan for myself yet, although I am tempted by the KB3 on a Kurzweil PC3K6 or the new CX on the Kronos 6. Both of which are really close in width, I think they could have shaved a little off them too. And they will do anything you'd ever need on any gig. XK-1c is a great size, and will do justice to the organ, but it's nowheresville with synth features. Conundrum.

 

 

[iluvchiclets]

I like VB3 a lot - probably one of the best VST organ models, but as mentioned above each have their own strengths. My biggest beefs with VB3 are:

 

- Reverb effect is before the Leslie model!?, and,

- it's a bit dull sounding. I wish it were a bit brighter...

 

You know, for the money he's asking for the VB3 program, it's kind of a no-brainer!

[Markay]

I have an XK3c and gig with VB3. Love em both. In a cover band I need more than just Hammond so I use VB3 hosted in MainStage 3.

 

The decision for you is do you want to use a controller with hardware? If software Windows or OSX? If you choose software then VB3 is the best Hammond emulation, the Logic EVB3 has been improved but is still not up there with VB3 1.4. If you go MainStage then you will need to get 32 Lives also to host VB3 as VB3 has not been updated to support the Cocoa interface and 64 bit required from Mavericks on.

 

At present after 2 years of promises that VB3 will be updated to run on the current version of OSX all reference to this update has been removed so right now VB3, good as it is, is a legacy app only.

 

As for Leslie emulation in software there are a number of alternatives to VB3's built-in sim including PSP's l'Rotary which Steve Nathan had input into beta testing. I use it and for me it is the software version of the Ventilator.

[Steve Nathan]

Over the years I've found some of the clones more acceptable than others, and I don't own a Kronos so I can't really opine on it's merits. I'll go ahead and say (while ducking), I don't like the SK1, or really any of the Hammond/Suzuki clones I've played. I spent the day last week with one and was once again, seriously underwhelmed. I suspect that I might feel differently if I was playing Jazz, but that's what I don't like about them. They're too "clean" and unnatural sounding for my taste, and no amount of turning the "drive" knob makes it better.

The C2/122 I take to sessions is fairly legendary around here. I'm not exaggerating when I say that no engineer I've worked with has not commented that mine is "the best sounding "B3" they ever heard". It is very much a "Rock" tone when I want it to be, and sweet and whispery when I want that.

I'm only going on like this because (as I reported in the L'otary thread), I showed up to work one day and cartage had broken the male connector on my Leslie and I had to "improvise" quickly. I loaded VB3 w/L'otary and used it instead, and the producer, the engineer and the artist all said they couldn't tell the difference. (I've since learned that they have actually been playing my "organ" tracks for other engineers and producers for weeks to the reported amazement of everyone )

Now I have my favored settings on VB3 and L'otary, and I will sometimes add additional processing if a song calls for it, but imho, that combination sounds damn good, and a big part of that is (also imho) that the dry tones from VB3 are spot on for how old B3s sound.

I've heard many around here say it's not "bright" enough for their taste, and I remember when lots of my gigging contemporaries replaced the horns in their Leslies with brighter, louder ones from Al Goff, but I've always preferred the vintage tone of the old ones (perhaps why I bought a '51 and a '53), and to my ears, VB3 gets that tone better than most of the clones I've tried.

[I-missRichardTee]

. I'll go ahead and say (while ducking), I don't like the SK1, or really any of the Hammond/Suzuki clones I've played. I spent the day last week with one and was once again, seriously underwhelmed. I suspect that I might feel differently if I was playing Jazz, but that's what I don't like about them. They're too "clean" and unnatural sounding for my taste, and no amount of turning the "drive" knob makes it better. Quote from Steve Nathan, resident expert!

 

I knew you would be able to articulate my complaint about SK1.

There was also a " too much of a good thing " quality, that once again, I could not attenuate. At first hearing, I was impressed with this tonal aspect.. but then within a week or so, it got on my nerves; too much of a good thing.

But through a Leslie, the Suzuki is much better.

 

The 2005 Cx3 was a relief to me, sure, it lacked certain things, but Steve can you help me better understand what the CX3 does even better than Suzuki xk3 and Mojo? I am telling you, though i miss things about the Mojo ( it's in Italy now as we speak ) there is a quality in the cx3 tone through a powered speaker, that is unequalled. Maybe one of you can help me define this. I know the bass is quite strong. But right hand ( I admit I am not sure if by right hand, I refer to single line solo, or chords) also has a quality that surprises me in a good way, all the while knowing the Mojo has a more accurate right hand sound. If this makes any sense!

 

 

[bennyray]

I play in 2 bands and i will be using this keyboard for mostly blues band and i use organ 70% of the time while using Piano, Eps and horns for the rest of the songlist. I have not played a SK1 ijust have heard it alot on TV and other people on the forum say good things about it. Hard to find in stock where i am from, but in no hurry to purchase at the moment.

[woodtus]

I hate the VB3. I bought it and tried it out, it sounded fantastic, then a few weeks later I updated my operating system and it didnt work anymore and it never has since. I know I could buy another piece of software to maybe make the piece of software I already bought work but I cant be faffing with all that techno stuff, life is too short.

I learnt my lesson though, never again will I spend money on software from a company who are not going to keep their product useable for a reasonable period. The fact that it sounded fantastic is even worse - if it had sounded bad I wouldnt be missing it.

[Markay]

I know I could buy another piece of software to maybe make the piece of software I already bought work but I cant be faffing with all that techno stuff, life is too short.

Too short to spend 5 minutes buying and downloading and 30 seconds installing it?

[Doerfler]

I hate the VB3. I bought it and tried it out, it sounded fantastic, then a few weeks later I updated my operating system and it didnt work anymore and it never has since.

had you inquired of this forum for assistance? :idk

many people here willing to help others get their situation sorted out.

[CEB]

The CX3 stuff over does it on the amp noise IMO. I can probably edit some of that out.

[woodtus]

I know I could buy another piece of software to maybe make the piece of software I already bought work but I cant be faffing with all that techno stuff, life is too short.

Too short to spend 5 minutes buying and downloading and 30 seconds installing it?

 

When you buy software you don't expect a few weeks later to have to buy more software that costs around the same price as the first software just to make the first software work. It really wound me up which is why I am telling you how much I hate the VB3.

[woodtus]

I hate the VB3. I bought it and tried it out, it sounded fantastic, then a few weeks later I updated my operating system and it didnt work anymore and it never has since.

had you inquired of this forum for assistance? :idk

many people here willing to help others get their situation sorted out.

 

Thanks, I saw all the threads on buying software to make a 32/64 bridge but I am a musician not a technician and I was unprepared to go that route. If you sell a product that ceases to work in a couple of weeks a normal company would have some kind of obligation to get their product working. 2 or 3 years later I am still waiting for a workable update. I have long given up.

[ElmerJFudd]

I think we just need to separate the business/money side of things here from the sound. The VB3 does sound quite well, it's a good Hammond clone in software with a decent Leslie sim.

 

With that said, Guido is a busy guy, he only has so much time to devote to his various projects and VB3 is not being maintained in the way one expects from a software developer that is actively selling his product. He either needs to devote time to keeping his software instruments up to date with modern 64bit operating systems, or he needs to update the site to be much more clear to uninformed buyers that VB3 is not compatible in many situations without the need for additional bridging software, or he needs to pull it from the store and focus on the builds he is designing for hardware. I think that's pretty fair, YMMV.

 

But on the other hand, we have to consider that a small independent software developer that has brought to us a plethora of lovely instruments is probably losing a good portion of proceeds from his work to piracy, and it's necessary for him to sell the VB3 with hardware to insure he is paid for his work. But again, that brings us back to the previous paragraph - he needs to make a decision about the Windows/OSX versions of VB3. Is he in, or is he out?

[mate stubb]

It didn't "cease to work". It worked, then you changed your operating system.

[AnotherScott]

or he needs to update the site to be much more clear to uninformed buyers that VB3 is not compatible in many situations

The very first thing the web page says is that it is not compatible in all situations, ending with an underlined statement: "Please test the free demo version!"

 

http://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=24

 

Seems fair and upfront to me. You can test it for free. If it works in your configuration, you can buy it. There is no guarantee it will ever work differently.

[ElmerJFudd]

Ya, and at the same time there's a check compatibility pop up that refers to none of that. Simply indicates that it works on Windows and Mac OS and there are VST and AU versions. But whatever, it's not that important to me. I'm just trying to be reasonable for the sake of the less technically literate.

 

In a perfect world, he would have maintained his software, compiled 64bit AU and VST, tested it on OSX Yosemite and Windows 8 SP whatever and already done a bug fix update. That's normal procedure, that's what software developers do. That isn't what is happening here. Again. I'm sympathetic to Guido and love his work. This is just a dropped ball, work left unfinished. YMMV

[Reezekeys]

Thanks, I saw all the threads on buying software to make a 32/64 bridge but I am a musician not a technician

If you are loading and playing a software plugin you are using a computer and IMO somewhat of a "technician." I definitely understand your annoyance, and there are more than a few posts around here complaining about VB3 being late to the 64-bit party. But when you consider the relatively small cost and time investment in the bridge software vs the enjoyment you'd get using VB3, I see it as a pretty minor tradeoff unless whatever you're using now sounds better to you, of course.

[Reezekeys]

The very first thing the web page says is that it is not compatible in all situations, ending with an underlined statement: "Please test the free demo version!"

 

http://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=24

 

Seems fair and upfront to me. You can test it for free. If it works in your configuration, you can buy it. There is no guarantee it will ever work differently.

In fairness, it did work for woodtus when he bought it, or downloaded the demo. Is there wording on the genuionesoundware site that specifically says VB3 doesn't work in 64 bit mode?