When pro keyboards sound cheap through a PA System

[Outkaster]

I carry my own engineer. I have to pay him as a member but it goes a long way.

[Kenny Ingram]

On the contrary, I love it when you can get an inexpensive keyboard or module to sound AMAZING through a PA. I will typically just play the 'demo' song on any module or keyboard I own and get an idea of how the PA sounds with that. But I'm continually amazed at how my setup sounds through the PA systems I've had the privilege of using (yes, the setup not the playing..).

 

Keep in mind, lots of this stuff IS opinion-based. You might find my piano too muddy or thin for your liking, but I may think it's the best thing since sliced bread. That's why we get to choose our instruments and sounds, and performing is so fun.

[video:youtube]

[Al Quinn]

I try to develop a rapport with the soundman while setting up. I can tell quickly if they are there to do a great job or be in some sort of power struggle with the band. Most I've encountered are there to do a great job and welcome a collaborative approach. Even if their skills need work, given the right attitude we can get a good sound working together. I've had some experiences, though not many, where the soundman is an incompetent, arrogant, and confrontation jerk -- this is usually evident within five minutes. In this case I'll usually give it a chance on a second gig and if it still sounds bad I won't do a third gig. I don't practice and buy good gear to sound like crap.

 

The worst experience I had was with an incompetent, arrogant, confrontational soundman at an outdoor festival that was broadcast on the radio. We were the staightahead Jazz group (a quartet and very easy to mix) in a varied program of several bands. When I heard a recording of the radio broadcast I was so upset by the mix I told the bandleader I'm sorry I can no longer do this annual gig because even though we had a good sound on stage we sounded bad to the audience and on the radio.

 

Sorry for the rant but sounding good is an emotional topic for me. End of rant.

 

[voxpops]

the CP4 piano sounded too boxy.

 

I am preparing to duck as I write this ...

 

... but that is how the CP4 sounds to me through PA systems. It was one of the main reasons I returned mine. The P255 sounds similar when externally amplified, as witnessed when I heard a highly respected member of this forum play a show on one of these. He played beautifully, but the tone was, well, boxy! I think the CP4 can sound amazing when well recorded, but for some reason it needs extra help when amplified, IMO.

 

 

[J. Dan]

Sounds tend to sound much different through a PA and when mixed with other instruments than they do playing solo through a nice monitor or headphones.

 

This is pretty much my reason behind the philosophy that many of you tend to disagree with related to monitoring and the stereo/mono debate. If you make your patches so that they sound great to you through your monitors in stereo on stage, then that doesn't mean it will sound good out front. You're hearing something much different than the audience is hearing. Many of you say it's more important to sound good to you so that you're more into it or inspired, but this is the result.

 

I monitor mono through an active PA speaker which is pretty much how it'll sound out front. I write my patches that way, I mix that way, and if think the results are pretty good - I get lots of compliments from other keyboard players on my sounds.

[Sven Golly]

^ This. A million times, this.

[WesG]

Sven -- good points in there. I also work with sound men who are the club "DJ". I'm going to start including the set list in the package, thanks.

 

Wes

[Al Coda]

^ This. A million times, this.

 

I don´t want to trigger a new stereo vs mono debate here, at least because I myself in general have no problem listening to mono but,- when I see the FOH sideracks in PA systems, these are filled not only w/ dynamics like compressors, limiters, gates and EQs,- I also see a lot of stereo FX devices connected to the auxes and digital consoles´ onboard FX are also stereo.

So, I wonder what the FOH engineers do w/ these when all the PAs are mono.

 

Also, isn´t it, the manufacturers of keyboard instruments and modules, all offering internal stereo FX since decades, should take care for mono compatibility of FX ?

They don´t.

 

The only reason I prefer listening to my keys in stereo on stage is, the built in FX are canceled out or offer extreme phase issues in mono and render the basic sound to crap,- except I´d bypass the FX and run dry !

 

If that issue would be history, I´d run mono all day and love to work w/ 1 speaker only.

 

When I used electromagnetic instruments like Rhodes, Clav & Wurli as well as synths like Minimoog D, Prophet 5 & OB-8 and guitar type stomp boxes only in the past, all my amplification was mono and I had a great sound w/ it.

I don´t need stereo reverb and I´m fine w/ a mono delay,- but today all the onboard digital modulation FX, chorus, flanger & phaser are stereo and sound crap mono, while the pure synth engine tones sound thin without the onboard FX which was not when we used the old analogue dino synths.

Same rules for (most) softsynths, modelled or sample based, when bypassing FX.

 

A.C.

 

[BlueAndGreen]

I am playing a large outdoor festival tonight. I hope it is a line array system; they seem to sound smoother to my ears. I guess I will mix my keyboards and hand over a mono xlr cable and hope for the best

[BlueAndGreen]

OK, monitors were fine, FOH was weak....

 

[J. Dan]

I highly suggest most of you dig a little deeper into the more technical side of sound reinforcement...much deeper than you'll ever get here. I gather most of you have the mental capacity to understand some of the more technical papers on the subject. I'm not saying that lightly, it get's extremely complicated.

 

Sound reinforcement for something like an outdoor festival is a tremendous feat that doesn't in any way resemble onstage monitoring. Throw stereo into the mix and you practically need to be a pHd just to design the sound system much less run it.

[David Loving]

I bring my own kind of mini, mono, PA, run my rig through it, and send the monitor jack out to the house. It never sounds lame through my PA. If I don't fancy what the house sound guy is doing, I turn down my monitor send, and turn up my rig's PA. I use either a powered speaker over a powered sub, most often; or a power amp, crossover, and speakers. At least I have a remedy.

[I-missRichardTee]

.Also, isn´t it, the manufacturers of keyboard instruments and modules, all offering internal stereo FX since decades, should take care for mono compatibility of FX ?

They don´t.

 

The only reason I prefer listening to my keys in stereo on stage is, the built in FX are canceled out or offer extreme phase issues in mono and render the basic sound to crap,- except I´d bypass the FX and run dry !

 

If that issue would be history, I´d run mono all day and love to work w/ 1 speaker only.

 

When I used electromagnetic instruments like Rhodes, Clav & Wurli as well as synths like Minimoog D, Prophet 5 & OB-8 and guitar type stomp boxes only in the past, all my amplification was mono and I had a great sound w/ it.

A.C.

In my experience the PC88 Kurz has a Mono piano that really works... I am reconsidering using it again ( it's weight has dissuaded me )

Dave Weiser.. would you say the newer Kurzweil pianos maintain as excellent a Mono ac piano as the PC88?

Can anyone name more recent iterations of DP that are great in Mono?

[zukskywalker]

Ok KC community....timeliest thread ever(I love this place!) as I just might be broadcasting/streaming and providing PA for the upcoming outdoor Organissimo concert in DC.

I'm a partner in a small sound company and have access to enough gear to pull this off. As a keyboard player and sound guy I always strive to take care of keys in all the bands we serviced...but Organissimo might be the most important date ever.

 

So...I will need y'alls help on this one on how best to do this. First question: What is the best Leslie mic technique? Two mics or three? Bear in mind that we don't have any high end gear, just a bunch of SM-58's and a boatload of JBL EON G2's.

So KC community....May 21st approaches....HELP!!!

[CEB]

Ask Jim. I like the AKG D112 on the bottom rotor and a pair of SM57s on the top. How hard you pan them depends on the venue, inside v outside , how far apart the mains are, whether you are flying center line arrays etc....

 

Ask Jim what he wants.

[The Real MC]

In my travels I have found that most sound men are frustrated guitar players with no concept of mixing instruments beyond guitars and drums.

[Reezekeys]

To anyone complaining of a boxy sound on their DP, I would suggest using an EQ to scoop a little bit at around 200 Hz. A lot depends on the room you're in too - standing waves can cancel and reinforce frequencies in that range. Just moving your head a few inches can change how things sound to you.

[Al Coda]

In my travels I have found that most sound men are frustrated guitar players with no concept of mixing instruments beyond guitars and drums.

 

LOL, hell yeah,- you nailed it !!!

 

True also for most backline and PA roadies as well as light crew.

Most of these I´ve ever met were amateur guitarists, drummers, bass players and there were also keyboardists, but only a few,- and no one of ´em ever made it into the pro touring- or studio scene or had some success w/ their own music. Many heavy metal guys !

Then they jumped into the rock ´n roll circus related service companies.

Unfortunately they kept to be posers also as roadies and "engineers" as they were in their amateurish metal bands before.

 

For me there´s only one rule existing since I started playing for a living,- "It´s me who sets the terms".

 

The people don´t buy tickets for the roadcrew and no soundmen or backliner tells me what I have to use or how I have to set up my gear.

A musical director or bandleader, possibly and depending on payment does,- but not a crew member.

 

THEY have to adapt to my rig and not me to their oldschool way of work.

They are lazy bastards in most cases being not intelligent enough to learn and for ´em it´s best when it keeps the same as it was 2 or more decades ago because then they can smoke their weed, drink gallons of beer and sniff the white forever.

 

There are exceptions in the A-Crew though, but these guys go where the money is and work worldwide. You rarely find ´em on the small(er) festivals or most small local events.

 

A.C.

[U.Honey]

Im reading comments about making rapport with the sound guy, buying him beer, etc. Thats just seems so awkward. In a perfect world, shouldnt the sound guy approach you with a beer while trying to make rapport. After all, You are the artist, he is just a tech guy..

[Sven Golly]

As much as I disagree with 'bribing' the crew with alcohol, I strongly take exception to this attitude:

 

he is just a tech guy..

 

...who holds the keys to making or breaking your entire night in his hand. It's this bullshit superiority complex from musos that turns so many sound engineers into jaded assholes that set out to screw you guys over.

 

The rest of you can enjoy being adversarial, I'll continue to show respect to someone who has paid their dues to get to stand behind the desk until they prove otherwise, and I'll enjoy the fruit of that effort.

 

Hope you enjoy not being in the mix.

[Al Coda]

After all, You are the artist, he is just ONLY * a tech guy..

 

* fixed

 

 

A.C.

[Joe Muscara]

Im reading comments about making rapport with the sound guy, buying him beer, etc. Thats just seems so awkward. In a perfect world, shouldnt the sound guy approach you with a beer while trying to make rapport. After all, You are the artist, he is just a tech guy..

In a perfect world, we should all be making an effort to get along with those we encounter, no matter their perceived status or level.

[Al Coda]

Hope you enjoy not being in the mix.

 

Well Sven, when I get payed for not being in the mix and the money is right, I don´t care anyway.

 

No musician is technically responsible for not being in the mix,- the soundman is.

 

A musician brings the gear he has and hopefully get´s some rental fee from the production.

When the production doesn´t like or want his gear, they are free to provide their own.

 

Simple as that.

 

A.C.

[Sven Golly]

Hope you enjoy not being in the mix.

 

Well Sven, when I get payed for not being in the mix and the money is right, I don´t care anyway.

 

Pick your argument, Al. Either you're the artist, and it's you're way or the highway, or you don't care.

 

As to the rest of that post, I have no idea what point you're trying to make, so I'll just pass on commenting.

[Doug Robinson]

"...who holds the keys to making or breaking your entire night in his hand. It's this bullshit superiority complex from musos that turns so many sound engineers into jaded assholes that set out to screw you guys over."

 

 

This isn't an unimportant point, imo, but which comes first--the chicken or the sound man?

 

More importantly, turn the tables--if a bandleader pissed you off, would you deliberately tank your performance that night? The way those snickering sound guys admitted when they thought no one was looking?

 

Probably not. And that could be the big difference between musicians and sound men in general.

 

On the opposite side of the spectrum, I just did a 3 day festival in San Pancho, Nayarit, MX. The sound guy is Chas Eller, who is also an excellent keyboardist and recording engineer. it's a labor of love for him, doing this free festival year after year in his tiny adopted Mexican beach town. A large outdoor stage and then a smaller one on the other side of the seating area (which fits about 750). This year, he had two P.A. setups, so that the moment one band finished playing on the large stage, a solo or duo or trio act started up for 20 minutes on the small stage.

 

I've watched him pull this off without a hitch 2 years in a row now. Excellent sound quality; never a feedback squeal; everything stays more or less on schedule for 3 solid days.

[Redknife]

I think it is fairly easy to sound bad at a gig without a lot of effort even with great playing. For whatever reason, I've found piano sounds to sound pretty crappy at gig venues without the right equipment and tweaking.

 

At some point I came around to the notion that a qualified sound person was required if the performing group involved drums or an outdoor setting. I think that the sound person is as important as any instrument and realized that I simply couldn't control the mix to my satisfaction from the stage. As the number and location of people in the crowd changes, the mix changes and you simply aren't hearing the same thing as the audience. Something like a solo or duo is different IMO and much more easily managed by me or even a friend after I tweak initially.

 

Addditionally, unless the venue list is limited to very similar places in terms of size/crowd/configuration, the equipment required is so variable that to sound good every night you really need an array of equipment. You also have to know how to make that specific equipment sound good in the various venues.

I always find outdoor sound more demanding than indoor, but that could be just me.

My preparation routine is to level all of the keyboard sounds in the sets at home and standardize the volume knob locations between units so that I am sending a consistent level to the main board. From there it is up to a competent sound person.

I can't say that finding a competent sound person as I've described is easy but I think it is necessary. If I'm at a gig and sound problems ensue before or during the gig, I get into the sound person's business. Unless the behavior is correctable, that is their last gig.

The use of a midi file is great and I think I'll use that trick but all sorts of things change affecting the mix and eq during the gig.

I know that others make a different approach work which is cool - just my experience.

Once I've found the right sound people in an area or for a group I won't do a gig without them. If they are not available, I'm not available. If they are good, I don't need to talk much shop with them any more than I need to tell the players how to play (well, ok sometimes).

[Sven Golly]

"...who holds the keys to making or breaking your entire night in his hand. It's this bullshit superiority complex from musos that turns so many sound engineers into jaded assholes that set out to screw you guys over."

 

 

This isn't an unimportant point, imo, but which comes first--the chicken or the sound man?

 

It doesn't matter. We, as musicians, hold the key in how we approach any gig and those involved. A soundman should, IMO, be treated like a subbing player that's standing on the stage. Don't be a dick, be courteous, have open and clear communication, and expect them to be as professional as you are. You wouldn't go in assuming the guy was a putz and treating him like shit until he proves otherwise, right? So why should it be any different with crew?

 

But hey, seems like some here prefer the "diva" approach where anyone not on the stage is beneath them and subservient. To each their own.

[Sparky2]

My 2 cents having mixed FOH live for bands for 34 years and played keys or bass in cover bands for almost 10: usually when an "artist" treats the sound man as "just a tech guy" he/she isn't half as good an "artist" as he/she thinks they are. Sound guys (especially older ones) have the attitude that "it all sucks" mostly because of they way they have been treated for years. Yes, there are many that aren't worth crap. But there are many that just love music and also love making music out of crap (whether it's gear or playing!). In my experience, experienced talent realizes that a good sound man is also an artist and treats him accordingly.

 

Inexperienced players fall into a couple of different categories. Many just don't know what goes into making a good mix in a terrible room, and just lets him do his thing. Other inexperienced players actually want to understand what's going on and a good sound man will make suggestions and, if there is time, sense whether or not the player wants to learn more about why something was suggested.

 

Good sound guys like to talk about sound and many like to teach and discuss what they have learned. There's no excuse for either a player or a sound man to treat the other with attitude that hasn't been earned. Players typically aren't playing small gigs just for the money, and I certainly don't carry all that sh%t in/out hours before/after gigs just for the money. I am trying to create or re-create magic from the stage. When I hear it all come together between one, two or more musicians and have witnessed that special moment of discovery and surprise between them musically, the gig has given me what I was hoping for. And I make sure I point out how I caught that moment during the break between sets. I believe that is special because the crowd usually doesn't know any different and it means something to know that someone else noticed and cares. And that is a connection or moment that I still long for when playing on stage myself.

 

I don't mean to rant, but certain attitudes perpetuate stereotypical behavior. Yes, there are guys that will sabotage your gig is you give him crap. But if you want someone to give you the best possible presentation to the public, you'd better treat them with respect. They are more likely to earn it that way. Learn enough about live sound to know how to verbalize what you want and to understand what you hear. Then your opinions of a guys mix matters when you talk to other bands about him. Without that knowledge, negative comments can easily be dismissed and the a$$hole behind to board gets to keep raping bands and doing squat for the industry.

 

I apologize if anyone feels offended. Just sharing my side of things. (gotta cut down on Sunday coffee.....). Peace,

 

Mark

[Danny Linguini]

But hey, seems like some here prefer the "diva" approach where anyone not on the stage is beneath them and subservient. To each their own.

 

I don't think this is the case at all. Most of the folks I've run into here seem very down-to-earth and humble. I think it's more a case of so many of these guys getting screwed by incompetent sound men -- i.e., guys whose sole sound engineering credentials are knowing how to sign their name on the credit card slip. Granted these guys are not the majority, but neither are truly skilled and competent sound guys. I do agree that anybody you work with deserves to be treated respectfully unless or until they demonstrate that they don't deserve it. But I also believe that there are far too many bad experiences with sound guys than there should be, particularly when keyboards are involved. I really think that most guys expressing negative opinions here are just venting and probably don't behave in person like the dicks you're making them out to be.

[Sven Golly]

I really think that most guys expressing negative opinions here are just venting and probably don't behave in person like the dicks you're making them out to be.

 

I hope you're right, but I'm going entirely on what they are posting:

 

Exhibit A:

For me there´s only one rule existing since I started playing for a living,- "It´s me who sets the terms".

 

The people don´t buy tickets for the roadcrew and no soundmen or backliner tells me what I have to use or how I have to set up my gear.

A musical director or bandleader, possibly and depending on payment does,- but not a crew member.

 

THEY have to adapt to my rig and not me to their oldschool way of work.

They are lazy bastards in most cases being not intelligent enough to learn and for ´em it´s best when it keeps the same as it was 2 or more decades ago because then they can smoke their weed, drink gallons of beer and sniff the white forever.

 

There are exceptions in the A-Crew though, but these guys go where the money is and work worldwide. You rarely find ´em on the small(er) festivals or most small local events.

 

Q.E.D.