Yamaha hasn't released a new flagship synth because ________

[Outkaster]

Well Hammond - Suzuki is a different company I know that much.

[Markay]

According to wiki Suzuki Music started out in 1953 as a harmonica maker, Suzuki Motor Company started out in 1909 making weaving looms. I think it is reasonable to conclude they are not related.

 

The Hammond Organ Company is owned by Suzuki Music.

[dsetto]

Yamaha hasn't released a new flasgship synth because they caught wind of Suzuki Music tapping into its roots to make a portable electro-mechanical, 3-octave harmonica keyboard for pads and leads. And are waiting to see how that goes.

[ElmerJFudd]

Interestingly enough, Yamaha Corporation (YAMCY) - maker of musical instruments, PA systems, home electronics, etc.) was founded in 1887 and has its headquarters in Hamamatsu, Japan.

 

Yamaha Motor Company, Ltd (YAMHF) - maker of motorcycles, marine products, power products, industrial machinery and robots, snowmobiles, boats, marine engines, etc. was founded in 1955 and is headquartered in Shizuoka, Japan.

 

Both are publicly traded companies. Their fortunes are tracked separately on the world's stock exchanges. If you owned both stocks today you would find that YAMCY has been stagnant the last 5 years, up with the market the last 2, 18.43 this morning. YAMHF has been trending up since mid 2012 and is at 24.90 this morning.

 

Point being, we usually think of Yamaha as one big motorcycle and trumpet playing entity but that's not exactly true.

 

For comparison, Suzuki Motors is a publicly traded company but I don't see that being true for Suzuki Music (no listing). Suzuki Music is a fairly successful school music instrument company, and their acquisition of Hammond Organ is curious. Obviously the name has some value in certain circles, and they have clearly pumped some funds into R&D on their portable organ line. In fact, if you took this forum as an accurate measure you'd think Hammond is doing great. But statistics show that professional organs have been in a tail spin the last 5-6 years.

[U.Honey]

Just in case Yamaha is following this forum, here is my recipe for the next flagship workstation. And a tip for Yamaha, dont make compromises, it is ok for it to be expensive. This is your flagship model!

 

1. Hammond/Leslie modeling with real drawbars, a la Nord Electro. The lack of believable organ sounds is IMO the biggest shortcoming of the XF.

 

2. Shave the 88-key model weight off below 40 lbs, while keeping the current keybed (including aftertouch). If its not possible to do that with XF8 then introduce a 76 key version with weighted action. Current XF8 weights 64 lbs. Add a hard case and the package will weight 90 lbs. Who wants to haul that around?

 

3. Editor software bundle for Mac/PC. Motif XF is a really complicated to program and with the current user interface it is difficult to learn to edit even the basic stuff, like modifying effects or layering sounds, etc. There exists 3rd party editors but you have to pay for them. Yamaha should hire a user interface expert from Apple to make a editor software bundle for Mac/PC and iPad :-)

 

[Ken Beaumont]

If you owned both stocks today you would find that YAMCY has been stagnant the last 5 years, up with the market the last 2, 18.43 this morning

 

Well stagnant technology, stagnant sales. Yamaha early on licensed technology from John Chowning, a composer and researcher at Stanford University. It was that collaboration that created such gems as their DX7. They were at the forefront of development. It seems to me that their forward thinking vision has gone. It would be interesting to see how many of their senior engineers have left in the last decade.

[dsetto]

My findings: The 8 fader approach is tied to the 8 element organization. The 4-element info-packed single glance screen views - with quick A-B toggle to view & edit all 8- works very well. Conceptually, I wonder if they began as dual stereo pairs in the original that were doubled to 8 in the XS. In the 8 oscillator context (Voice level), those faders feel like a smooth Yamaha mixing board. Very nice for subtle 8-oscillator wide level adjustments. While I would also want to have a 9th fader tied to a 9th oscillator that would function in draw-bar pull-out mode, I'd suspect some things have to be re-designed & re-engineered. I don't know how the PC3 series incorporates the 9th fader into its sampling-synthesis function & form.

 

Re: user interface. I have preferred to learn how to go deep with just the board sans the existing editors for various idiosyncratic reasons including laziness, ergonomics, & simplicity. But that's only helped bond deeper with it. Re: layering. I'm still only at the Voice level. (I haven't graduated to Performance, let alone Master.) Layering of Oscillators (Elements) at the Voice level is great.

[DanL]

Yamaha is definitely due, but when you think about it, the other keyboard makers have also ridden their technology for years... Korg and the Triton stuff, then they came out with the Kronos. Kurz is pretty antiquated as well, until the Forte, but it still has a lot of the old sample sets in there. Roland rode the XV sound set for years, and still does in the FA, though the FA does have a lot of the S/N tones as well.

 

Maybe a new flagship from Yamaha would include some of their higher end pianos from the CP1.

[MIDI2XS]

[...]There exists 3rd party editors but you have to pay for them. Yamaha should hire a user interface expert from Apple to make a editor software bundle for Mac/PC and iPad :-)

Yamaha has free Editors for the XF, downloadable here:

http://download.yamaha.com/search/product/?category_id1=16277&category_id2=16381&product_id=1073315

You may or may not like the interface, or the learning curve.

 

[Jazzmammal]

It seems to me that their forward thinking vision has gone. It would be interesting to see how many of their senior engineers have left in the last decade.

 

I think you have this backwards. Their forward thinking is very good and what they see is a rapidly changing musical landscape. Their old engineers are just like most of us here. They and us have zero understanding much less any affinity for the new EDM/rap/techno stuff that does not require a 50 pound 88 key workstation.

 

The classic old guys are dying off quickly. I just found a great Joe Cocker live concert on YT yesterday recorded in Germany last year, it might have been his last big show before he died last December. His stuff is exactly the kind of thing a lot of us here have been doing for years.

 

Bob

[Brettymike]

Interestingly enough, Yamaha Corporation (YAMCY) - maker of musical instruments, PA systems, home electronics, etc.) was founded in 1887 and has its headquarters in Hamamatsu, Japan.

 

Yamaha Motor Company, Ltd (YAMHF) - maker of motorcycles, marine products, power products, industrial machinery and robots, snowmobiles, boats, marine engines, etc. was founded in 1955 and is headquartered in Shizuoka, Japan.

 

Both are publicly traded companies. Their fortunes are tracked separately on the world's stock exchanges. If you owned both stocks today you would find that YAMCY has been stagnant the last 5 years, up with the market the last 2, 18.43 this morning. YAMHF has been trending up since mid 2012 and is at 24.90 this morning.

 

Point being, we usually think of Yamaha as one big motorcycle and trumpet playing entity but that's not exactly true.

 

For comparison, Suzuki Motors is a publicly traded company but I don't see that being true for Suzuki Music (no listing). Suzuki Music is a fairly successful school music instrument company, and their acquisition of Hammond Organ is curious. Obviously the name has some value in certain circles, and they have clearly pumped some funds into R&D on their portable organ line. In fact, if you took this forum as an accurate measure you'd think Hammond is doing great. But statistics show that professional organs have been in a tail spin the last 5-6 years.

 

All the various heads of each different department are on the same ONE board of directors for Yamaha.

 

Brett

[CEB]

So what. Kurzweil made reading machines for the blind. Ensoniq made hearing aides. Hammond was a clock maker. etc.....

[Song80s]

Interestingly enough, Yamaha Corporation (YAMCY) - maker of musical instruments, PA systems, home electronics, etc.) was founded in 1887 and has its headquarters in Hamamatsu, Japan.

 

Both are publicly traded companies. Their fortunes are tracked separately on the world's stock exchanges. If you owned both stocks today you would find that YAMCY has been stagnant the last 5 years, up with the market the last 2, 18.43 this morning. YAMHF has been trending up since mid 2012 and is at 24.90 this morning.

 

Point being, we usually think of Yamaha as one big motorcycle and trumpet playing entity but that's not exactly true.

 

Obviously the name has some value in certain circles, and they have clearly pumped some funds into R&D on their portable organ line. In fact, if you took this forum as an accurate measure you'd think Hammond is doing great. But statistics show that professional organs have been in a tail spin the last 5-6 years.

 

All the various heads of each different department are on the same ONE board of directors for Yamaha.

 

Brett

 

ohh, so this is the group that is voting either 'thumbs up ' or 'thumbs down ' on releasing a new workstation every year

[Brettymike]

^^^ No , Yamaha isn't dumb enough to put all their eggs in one basket ;-).

 

Brett

[Theo Verelst]

The lack of expertise remains stunning, and the nerdy thought lines funny.

 

I would be cool to let testers of synths and in this case flagship "workstations", whatever the criteria far that is considered to be, make test tracks that people can listen to. Some of the those MIDI file makers are really good, so some of those, a little improv, a little band related stuff.

 

That would make the trade offs of the test readers much easier, in terms of the meaning of the test and yay and nay sayers.

 

T.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

T. I read your post 3 times. I really wanted to understand it... But I have to be honest, I have no idea what it means. Can you help a north east coast 40 something out and put that in different words?

[CEB]

One year product life cycles are way too short. Your dealers carrying product inventory would shit or just stop ordering stock.

[dsetto]

As a mature, capable sampler with sufficient synthesis and a fast workflow - sans computer editor - and a solid built-in waveform collection that goes far, the Yamaha Motif XF is current- not dated. It does not do everything. But, everything we need is currently available. Each flagship board has its particular strength, heritage & potential forward trajectory. I agree with the sentiment of not needing all of them to be the same.

[dsetto]

I think Theo is respectfully & reasonably requesting sound examples as support.

[burningbusch]

I think Theo is respectfully & reasonably requesting sound examples as support.

 

I don't find the phrase "the lack of expertise remains stunning" particularly respectful. I simply don't engage.

 

Busch.

[ElmerJFudd]

Sound examples as support for... features on the Motif XF?. Or, opinions on why this or that sounds good or better than something else?.

[dsetto]

Hmm That went over my head. Dunno'. For whatever unhealthy reasons, I can't get this subject off my mind. For me, at the core of it is Sampling vs Synthesis, as means of expression. Both realms have quick and slow-cooked approaches.

 

I've come in strong in defense of the XF because from the perspective of 'sampler with some synthesis' it works. I'm currently passionate about it, for its potential, and what it has done for me thus far. I only happen to be a Motif user because of my particular circumstances when I pulled the trigger. I know very well that I would be a passionate Kronos, PC3K, Nord Stage, or Prophet 12 user if that's where I landed, when I pulled a trigger. My current obsession with the XF7 is to deal with my poly-analogue lust. And, thankfully it deals with it - to a certain and limited extent. I know that it's not a substitute. Which is confusing as l continue to pursue it as one. My results have improved now that I've translated the power of opening and closing the filter- something I learned on my Moog. Unrelated, the moment I freed my XF7 from subbing in as a portable piano, it's given me so much more joy.

 

I think a bottom line for the forum members here, in general, is: If Synthesis, Clone Wheel, EP modeling, AP's, and studio-endowed sampling in one board are desirable -- and that's solid reasoning well, there is the one for that. (This forum has chosen it. And it makes hell of a good sense.) The other major boards do some of those things differently. And, with these criteria, sure, I can see why some may feel the XF is dated for them. I hope this balances out my support of why I like my XF7.

 

I was thinking

Potential trajectories:

Kronos -- opens up to large available RAM, a little better touch responsiveness of the screen. Boom.

Kurzweil -- combines VAST with 16GB user-addressable Flash. Damn.

Yamaha -- well, what this thread said.

Nord -- More of its path.

 

I'd like to think Sampling is not on its way out. Part of me thinks simple sampling has been on its way in. Deep Sampling is not for the short-attention spanned. And, as a whole, yeah, we are more short-attention spanned. I am real glad synthesis is back strong. For it's very 'in the moment'-oriented. And that's a good thing.

 

As I wrote earlier, I considered letting go of my XF7 to better get what I want. Specifically, a better synthesis platform. I decided I'm best served staying put, going deeper with the XF7, and in time, years down the line, getting a poly-analogue. Another factor here is, I've already put in the time to get to know it, and I am a very slow learner.

 

Alright, I'll let this thread fade. Thanks, and my apologies for clogging the airways. I guess I needed to get all that out.

[ElmerJFudd]

Completely understandable. There are things we'd like to see on all the big boards. For example, I'd love to see an SSD slot or user upgradeable flash RAM on the Stage 3. And with that sort of storage for samples, the librarIes can become that much more detailed and variable. Particularly with velocity swItching for starters, which is not fully taken advantage of at all on the Nord platform.

 

Also, most of us are two tier players - wanting a synth or organ action for some things and a weighted action (graded preferred in some cases) for others. It's good that all the manufacturers do different things well, that's why the GAS around here flows freely. Let's put it this way. How hot a rig is a Motif XF8 downstairs and a Kronos 61 up?. It's total overkill. But you wouldn't find yourself at a loss for much. And for the weak paying gigs, take the little one.

[Markay]

Suzuki Music is a fairly successful school music instrument company, and their acquisition of Hammond Organ is curious. Obviously the name has some value in certain circles, and they have clearly pumped some funds into R&D on their portable organ line.

The facts are - and you can search wiki for the details - that the US Hammond Organ company, after switching to electronic products failed in the mid 1980's and was purchased by an Australian company with all remaining assets shipped to Australia. The Australian attempts to create an ongoing global market and develop new product also failed.

 

Mr Suzuki thought that the Hammond legacy deserved better and in the early 1990's purchased the insolvent Australian owned Hammond Organ Company assets and set about developing new electronic, what we term today, CloneWheel products.

 

It may be "curious" that a company would choose to continue in a niche market and develop product like the new B3 - but given that many like Yamaha, Korg and Roland do not bother to today actively compete in the dedicated clonewheel market would it be a good thing if Suzuki closed the Hammond Organ Company and left the market to Nord, Numa and the boutique Italian manufacturers?

[ElmerJFudd]

Obviously not. But we rarely see any heart in business these days. Just bottom line, make the numbers, report a win to investors.. If there is no growth, it's not a win.

 

But if the Hammond name and legacy is able to survive by adapting and serving a niche... Shouldn't that be enough?. If sales are sufficient and all salaries, bills, and obligations are getting paid. A sustainable business should be enough.

[Markay]

Yeah, I suspect that Hammond Organ Company continues to operate on a sustainable financial basis but I doubt it would have survived if owned by an Investment Fund such as those that own GC. Fortunately on other parts of the world, notabely Japan and Europe a longer term view is taken on shareholder returns and sticking to core values. This longer term view sustains investment in ongoing R&D and product evolution.

 

Hammmond continues to innovate with lower cost products like the SK and XK1c series, just as most of the recent innovations from Yamaha, Roland and Korg have been lower cost boards targeted at the price segment with the highest current demand.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Hammond also continues to be in demand in the gospel church market - and the New B3 is definitely not a lower cost board.

[Markay]

I didn't include the new B3 in the list of Hammonds low cost boards, I mentioned it because it is an example of Hammond's commitment to keeping the traditional Hammond legacy alive and relevant in the electronic era and a product that is clearly going to sell in low volumes that could only be developed and released by a company that is focussed on the long term rather than next quarter's earnings.

 

But this could be said of most of the current clonewheel manufacturers including Clavia, Crumar and KeyB. In the case of the last two they are small companies driven by the vision of one or two people to make what they consider the best available clonewheel.

[ElmerJFudd]

Hammond also continues to be in demand in the gospel church market - and the New B3 is definitely not a lower cost board.

 

Sadly, not the case.

The churches are having a hard time with donations these days with discretionary spending down. And I'm guessing if they own and use the organ, they're keeping it, at best maintaining it. But not buying much new.

 

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/77EABF39-F73A-4E89-BA3E-DF12712CFC79.jpg

[dsetto]

Regarding Motif engine synthesis: What I've written about my perspective on the Motif engine's synthesis was without experiencing and considering the Common LFO. And now I'm seeing that's where the Motif's modulation power lies. I have yet to explore it.