theshinenz Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Hi Guys, Im generally a hardware guy and currently running a Roland Fa-08 and roland Fa-06, I just saw the the controller bundles with Komplete 10 which look really nice, however in the past when ive tried to run software, ive never been able to get a fat warm sound from software it just sounded digital. I realise the likes of the Kronos are basically a computer ship coupled with good convertors, is there anyone who has used hardwre that is using software and able to get it sounding as good as a hardware synth? Im curious as to what audio interface is being used along with plugins etc as it would definately be very flexible as to sound possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Lots of us are using softsynths live, and getting killer sound on stage. But there are lots of components involved, so many ways so many of us are doing things, you might end up having through wade though lots of responses regarding what each of us does. Rather than us telling you what we're doing right to get a good sound, it would make more sense if we help pinpoint what you were doing wrong with your earlier setup...! So - what softsynths were you using? What interface? What was the signal path, what was the amplification? What was the band context? - Guru This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshinenz Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Thanks mate, i was using mainstage 2 with a presonus firebox from memory, i was trying a number of VST's like the Logic ones, and then stuff like nexus etc, although they sound very clear they lack fullness and sound very digital I guess, has anyone got any youtube videos of sounds being played via VST in a band situation? Im currently looking at the Komplete Audio interface they list on their website, my macbook pro is getting tired so would probably need to upgrade that, also interested in seeing what specs people are running on laptops? Eg ram and processor speed for good performance. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 "Lack fullness and sound very digital" Amplification? Roland KC per chance? Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridog6996 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I used to be a 100% hardware guy, but I made the switch to using a mix of hardware and software (Forte + VSTs), and it has made my life so much easier. I wouldn't have done so if there was any step down, sound quality wise. Of course, if you're comparing to analog sources, any digital emulation is going to fall somewhat short, but you have to decide if it's a worthwhile trade-off for all the upside. As far as interface, I just use the headphone out on the laptop, with a splitter for running hard-panned sounds to different mixer channels. I'm sure that's not "preferred," but it sounds perfectly fine to me, and saves an extra piece of gear that I don't need to bring to the gig, small as it may be. My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshinenz Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Actually no, Ive used FBT Maxx 40a which are very good PA speakers, at the time running through a presonus 16.4.2 which ive now upgraded to an x32 and am now running DSR12's. however when compared side by side the motif xf and kurzweil pc3 both blew away the software based sounds by far, for feel and fullness. Would be interested to hear how much difference there is between the Forte and software, the Forte looks amazing and am sure it sounds similar/better to the PC3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Gain Staging. It's as important in the digital realm as it is in the analog realm. Learn it, love it, live it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 the motif xf and kurzweil pc3 both blew away the software based sounds by far, for feel and fullness.ive tried to run software, ive never been able to get a fat warm sound from software it just sounded digital. @OP - I don't quite get this. You've been lumping "software sounds" into one group. That doesn't make much sense to begin with. In a hardware rompler, all the sounds are based on more or less the same technology, i.e. samples (with exceptions like the Kronos). These samples are all processed by the same team of engineers, compressed in the same way, sent through the same effect chains. It therefore makes some sense to say "I like the Motif sounds" or "I love the PC3 sounds". There is some commonality there. OTOH, "software sounds" are based on radically different technologies. Some use samples, some synthesis, some emulation, some modeling. They're built by different companies, some of them who specialize in only one kind of sound. They have their own effect chains, their own compressors, limiters, EQ, whatnot. Each VST (softsynth, actually) is a unique instrument in its own right. I'm not questioning your experience, but something is rotten in the state of Denmark. And upto the interface, there's nothing obviously wrong with your setup, on paper at least. I don't know about the speakers, though, perhaps somebody else can comment about them. Do you get the same experience of Motifs and PC3s "blowing away" software sound through the same headphones? Studio monitors? Was the interface out going straight into your PA speakers, or through a mixer? Here's a practical suggestion. If you really want to get to the bottom of the problem, please make recordings, from your hardware romplers and the interface outs. Share them on Soundcloud or Dropbox here, so we can listen through our monitors/cans to understand what you mean when something "lacks fullness" or "sounds digital". It will also tell us if there's a problem with the source itself. Obviously, the way to do this is on a one-on-one shootouts, for distinct categories like APs, EPs, organs, etc. We could then compare them with the real industry standards, like Ravenscroft, Pianoteq, VB3, Omnisphere, etc. Again, I'm not doubting your experience, but it is a bit of a head-scratcher. - Guru This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markay Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 ... they sound very clear they lack fullness and sound very digital I guess, has anyone got any youtube videos of sounds being played via VST in a band situation? .... Have a listen to these and see whether they measure up to your sonic requirements. Mostly VST's [video:youtube] Mixed hardware and VST's [video:youtube] And you could DuckDuck some more if you like what you hear in these. A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markay Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Actually no, Ive used FBT Maxx 40a which are very good PA speakers, at the time running through a presonus 16.4.2 which ive now upgraded to an x32 and am now running DSR12's. however when compared side by side the motif xf and kurzweil pc3 both blew away the software based sounds by far, for feel and fullness. Would be interested to hear how much difference there is between the Forte and software, the Forte looks amazing and am sure it sounds similar/better to the PC3. Forte, MainStage, Cantabile are all Host programmes. To my ears VB3 or Pianoteq sound exactly the same regardless of host on my 2 setups, Cantabile x64 running on Windows or MainStage on OSX. I doubt that either would sound better if hosted in Forte. If you don't like the sound of VST's changing the host software is not going to make any difference. A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Actually no, Ive used FBT Maxx 40a which are very good PA speakers, at the time running through a presonus 16.4.2 which ive now upgraded to an x32 and am now running DSR12's. however when compared side by side the motif xf and kurzweil pc3 both blew away the software based sounds by far, for feel and fullness. Would be interested to hear how much difference there is between the Forte and software, the Forte looks amazing and am sure it sounds similar/better to the PC3. Forte, MainStage, Cantabile are all Host programmes. To my ears VB3 or Pianoteq sound exactly the same regardless of host on my 2 setups, Cantabile x64 running on Windows or MainStage on OSX. I doubt that either would sound better if hosted in Forte. If you don't like the sound of VST's changing the host software is not going to make any difference. Erm... I think he means the Kurzweil Forte (hardware keyboard), and not Brainspawn Forte (VST host software)...! - Guru This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markay Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 How unimaginative of Kurzweil to use a name already in use by keyboard players for their new plank. What will be next - the Korg Kantabile? A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midinut Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 ^^^^^^^^^^^ lmao ^^^^^^^^^^^^ <<<<< see for yourself! Hardware: Yamaha: MODX7 | Korg: Kronos 88, Wavestate | ASM: Hydrasynth Deluxe | Roland: Jupiter-Xm, Cloud Pro, TD-9K V-Drums | Alesis: StrikePad Pro| Behringer: Crave, Poly D, XR-18, RX1602 | CPS: SpaceStation SSv2 | Controllers: ROLI RISE 49 | Arturia KeyLab Essentials 88, KeyLab 61, MiniLab | M-Audio KeyStation 88 & 49 | Akai EWI USB | Novation LaunchPad Mini, | Guitars & Such: Line 6 Variax, Helix LT, POD X3 Live, Martin Acoustic, DG Strat Copy, LP Sunburst Copy, Natural Tele Copy| Squier Precision 5-String Bass | Mandolin | Banjo | Ukulele Software: Recording: MacBook Pro | Mac Mini | Logic Pro X | Mainstage | Cubase Pro 12 | Ableton Live 11 | Monitors: M-Audio BX8 | Presonus Eris 3.5BT Monitors | Slate Digital VSX Headphones & ML-1 Mic | Behringer XR-18 & RX1602 Mixers | Beyerdynamics DT-770 & DT-240 Arturia: V-Collection 9 | Native Instruments: Komplete 1 Standard | Spectrasonics: Omnisphere 2, Keyscape, Trilian | Korg: Legacy Collection 4 | Roland: Cloud Pro | GForce: Most all of their plugins | u-he: Diva, Hive 2, Repro, Zebra Legacy | AAS: Most of their VSTs | IK Multimedia: SampleTank 4 Max, Sonik Synth, MODO Drums & Bass | Cherry Audio: Most of their VSTs | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveQB Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I have found hardware sounds are just ready to play whereas vsts need processing (compression etc) and reverb added. Nord Stage 2EX | Nord Wave | Mainstage 3 K&M Spider Pro | JH Audio JH5 IEMs | Behringer XR18 | Radial Keylargo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 How unimaginative of Kurzweil to use a name already in use by keyboard players for their new plank. If only someone had pointed out that the name was already taken, back when they first trademarked the name. Oh, wait... Also, I recently noticed from his sig, that fellow forumite @DaBous owns both of the said homonymous products. So it can be said that controlling Forte with Forte is his forte. Don't worry, I'll see myself out now... - Guru This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 I have found hardware sounds are just ready to play because they already have reverb and compression added by the manufacturer for me whereas vsts need processing (compression etc) and reverb added. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Pretty much all our keyboards are digital these days, so I don't know what "sounding digital" means. Now "thin" I understand, but it doesn't apply to any VST instruments I've used (limited to NIB4 and a few sampled instruments, one modeled piano.) NIB4 hardly sounds "thin", in fact I rate it as more warm and natural sounding than the Nord Electro 2 that I replaced it with. (I vastly prefer having a second tier, the controls, and the convenience of the NE, and its clav and wurlie are way better than anything I had before.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Pretty much every sound that comes out of a speaker is "digital" in origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshinenz Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 Thanks guys, Ive just bought cantibile on a whim hoping i can get a good sound, so far so I really like the sound of cs80v, the only real issue Im having is a bit a a lack of lower end and quite a few sounds have a hollowish sound to them, I was thinking of trying psp vintage warmer in the chain after the vsti, anyone else have any tips on eq'ing or warming up the sounds a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Interestingly, you still haven't clarified how you're getting sounds out of the laptop; are you using the X32 as the interface via a USB connection, or are you just taking a cable out of the 1/8" headphone output as an analog audio connection to the mixer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshinenz Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 Hi Sven, I have ordered a presonus 22vsl as I was thinking that too, at the moment Im using a high quality 3.5mm jack lead out of my Sony Duo 11 i7 tablet PC into my mixer via Asio4all, was thinking the quality of the internal soundcard may be lacking, the interface should be showing up in the next couple of days so hoping that will solve the hollow sound issue. Its not terrible just not quite there yet. Will post back when it arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardware Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I use a few Native plugs and lots of Analog synths, and a DSP based Solaris. My cure for thin Native synths and samplers was to disable the weak FX and route them into hardware FX via a DSP based soundcard. The thin sound I noticed was from the 3D-ish quality of Computer based audio when going through powered monitors. That sound came from the FX. Years ago I demo'd M1's, etc. and and other hardware keyboards by disabling their FX and noticed it was very thin. By disabling the FX and sending dry audio into my old DMP7/Lexicon PCM70 the sound quality difference was VERY noticeable. I do the same thing still with Native stuff. My u-He synth work is thicker using MXR, Lexicon and Roland hardware units. Even the mighty 96k Solaris has good FX over the IEMs or headphones, but there too I disabled them and use hardware. Analog synths are still much stronger and track better down low, but the hardware FX made a nice leap up sonically for me. Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBous Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Also, I recently noticed from his sig, that fellow forumite @DaBous owns both of the said homonymous products. So it can be said that controlling Forte with Forte is his forte. And since I play in a classic rock band - I am often playing forte while controlling forte with my forte which is apparently my forte? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 at the moment Im using a high quality 3.5mm jack lead out There's your problem right there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 at the moment Im using a high quality 3.5mm jack lead out There's your problem right there.... I really hope I'm wrong, but I have this nagging suspicion that the interface isn't going to make the OP much happier with the sound... I am often playing forte while controlling forte with my forte which is apparently my forte? - Guru This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 at the moment Im using a high quality 3.5mm jack lead out There's your problem right there.... I really hope I'm wrong, but I have this nagging suspicion that the interface isn't going to make the OP much happier with the sound... Yeah, I share your trepidation (anytime I see the term "high quality 3.5mm" it makes me wonder...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshinenz Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 Well my presonus 22vsl turned up, spent so much time setting up Cantabile and still not at a point where Im confident with it. I am however pleased to say Im really enjoying the sounds through the interface, I think some VST's lack a bit of low end ummf... but should be able to tweak that with eq. Once i get everything set up via program change etc I think Ill have a kille rig with two Roland FA's plus Kontakt, VB3 and A number of other VSTi's. If theres any cantabile users that can give advice on setup Id appreciate it. Ive been doing some reading and so far it looks like the best way is to use one session and then bypass everything not needed and send everything to a master rack, and maybe a reverb / delay rack. Thanks all for advice, think Ill be happy in the long run, just fine tuning everything, I have a Sony Duo 11 i7 windows 8 tablet / laptop which is small enough to velcro to one side of my FA08, as i think laptops on stage look crap so shouldnt increase my setup time too much, I think Ill sell my Mini-Vent pedal as I actually prefer the sound of VB3 vs the FA-06 / mini-vent combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midinut Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I've been using Cantabile on a Lenovo laptop with meager specs for a couple of years now. I'm using the middle version (not the most expensive, and not the freebie) so not sure if we have the same versions - there are minor differences. Anyway, I usually set up a session for each song (and name it the song title), and then create set lists. I can shuffle things around if there is a change at the last minute. Each session gets as many racks as I need sounds for. I also add the mp3 file of each song in the media area just so I have it at rehearsals in case we need to hear the song or parts. Then I assign racks to controllers - setting up any splits and/or layers if needed. Save each session and save your set lists often. This method works with my workflow. I also keep a few templates handy with Piano on bottom, organ on top, layered strings that I can grab quickly if somebody pulls one out of their rear end. Hardware: Yamaha: MODX7 | Korg: Kronos 88, Wavestate | ASM: Hydrasynth Deluxe | Roland: Jupiter-Xm, Cloud Pro, TD-9K V-Drums | Alesis: StrikePad Pro| Behringer: Crave, Poly D, XR-18, RX1602 | CPS: SpaceStation SSv2 | Controllers: ROLI RISE 49 | Arturia KeyLab Essentials 88, KeyLab 61, MiniLab | M-Audio KeyStation 88 & 49 | Akai EWI USB | Novation LaunchPad Mini, | Guitars & Such: Line 6 Variax, Helix LT, POD X3 Live, Martin Acoustic, DG Strat Copy, LP Sunburst Copy, Natural Tele Copy| Squier Precision 5-String Bass | Mandolin | Banjo | Ukulele Software: Recording: MacBook Pro | Mac Mini | Logic Pro X | Mainstage | Cubase Pro 12 | Ableton Live 11 | Monitors: M-Audio BX8 | Presonus Eris 3.5BT Monitors | Slate Digital VSX Headphones & ML-1 Mic | Behringer XR-18 & RX1602 Mixers | Beyerdynamics DT-770 & DT-240 Arturia: V-Collection 9 | Native Instruments: Komplete 1 Standard | Spectrasonics: Omnisphere 2, Keyscape, Trilian | Korg: Legacy Collection 4 | Roland: Cloud Pro | GForce: Most all of their plugins | u-he: Diva, Hive 2, Repro, Zebra Legacy | AAS: Most of their VSTs | IK Multimedia: SampleTank 4 Max, Sonik Synth, MODO Drums & Bass | Cherry Audio: Most of their VSTs | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 How unimaginative of Kurzweil to use a name already in use by keyboard players for their new plank. Also, I recently noticed from his sig, that fellow forumite @DaBous owns both of the said homonymous products. So it can be said that controlling Forte with Forte is his forte. And since I play in a classic rock band - I am often playing forte while controlling forte with my forte which is apparently my forte? I just discovered that there's yet another product called Forte: Klonk @DaBous: Please tell me you don't own this one, too... - Guru This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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