Ravenscroft: new VILabs piano

[ITGITC]

The panning test would confirm this.

 

- Guru

 

Just did the panning test.

 

Something's wrong. The latency is obvious.

 

And yes, I'm using the Firebox main L/R outputs.

 

I don't really need audio inputs on the interface. That Roland interface, or a similar one, should do fine.

 

But, of course, there's no guarantee that this is the problem.

 

Hmmmmm...

 

Thanks. I'll keep thinking about it.

 

Edit: I've got a Casio WK-200. It uses a USB/MIDI connection natively. I think I'll try it and see if there is latency. If not, then it's the Firebox.

 

Tom

 

[Dana.]

What took you so long, Dana?

I was drinking.

[Ashville.Guru]

Edit: I've got a Casio WK-200. It uses a USB/MIDI connection natively. I think I'll try it and see if there is latency. If not, then it's the Firebox.

I had typed in a post suggesting this, and I just saw your edit...! Great minds, and all that. 99% of the time, the audio interface is the latency bottleneck, rather than the MIDI interface.

 

Also, your Nord Electro HP also has USB, like your WK-200. After your Triple Strike/Ravenscroft comparison, I'm sure many of us would be more interested in the Nord/Ravenscroft comparison, rather than the WK/Ravenscroft... . Two birds, one stone.

 

- Guru

[ITGITC]

Also, your Nord Electro HP also has USB, like your WK-200. After your Triple Strike/Ravenscroft comparison, I'm sure many of us would be more interested in the Nord/Ravenscroft comparison, rather than the WK/Ravenscroft... . Two birds, one stone.

 

- Guru

 

No. The Nord Electro 3 USB interface is ONLY for data I/O to get samples in and out of the machine.

 

It's the Nord Electro 4 that will do MIDI data over USB.

 

Yeah. I know...

 

Bummer #2

 

EDIT: OK. The Casio WK-200 is connected to USB 2.0 on my Windows 8.1 machine.

 

The latency is just as bad as it was before.

 

So it's NOT the Firebox. But what is it?

 

I completely disconnected the Firebox and rebooted. The audio is coming from the computer's audio outputs.

 

Hmmmm... Does anyone have any ideas for me to try?

 

Thanks.

 

Signed,

Frustrated ITGITC?

 

 

 

[SK]

Tom, check PM.

[Ashville.Guru]

The latency is just as bad as it was before.

Silver lining: this is as expected.

 

So it's NOT the Firebox. But what is it?

Slight correction: It's not the Firebox MIDI. The FB merely houses both MIDI and audio connections in the same physical box, but they're very different processes.

 

Most likely culprit: the FB audio drivers, which are (i) no longer updated by Presonus and (ii) running in compatibility mode. I'd give the FireBox installer software v5.13 a shot, just to make sure (requires restart after installing).

 

Suggestion #2: Ditch the FireBox (audio, at least). Install the Asio4all driver (free download, 411 kb), restart and try with the computer's builtin audio outputs. Make sure you choose the 'Asio4All' as the output device. Note: you might get pops and clicks at 64 buffers with Asio4All, in which case you'll have to move to 128.

 

Still, this is a bit of a head scratcher. Are you running any DAW on your system? If so, you might want to try the Ravenscroft VI as a plugin, rather than in standalone mode, with the FB.

 

- Guru

[voxpops]

Still, this is a bit of a head scratcher. Are you running any DAW on your system? If so, you might want to try the Ravenscroft VI as a plugin, rather than in standalone mode, with the FB.

 

- Guru

It was a head scratcher for me, too. I tried UVI initially with ASIO4ALL, and all I got was dreadful warbling. Then I ran it through my Alesis interface with its latest drivers. It was playable but still had perceptible latency, even at 64 samples. In the end, I installed Cantabile, linked it to UVI, and returned to ASIO4ALL. Perfect: no latency, no pops, crackles or stuttering. (I am running a standard Surface Pro.)

 

My conclusion, based upon both my own experience and other testimony, is that for a subset of Ravenscroft users, certain Windows configurations do not sit comfortably with the standalone UVI Workstation running Ravenscroft. I am able to run other standalone instruments (in my case Pianoteq and Arturia Analog Lab) with no issues, and that's why I believe that it's a Windows/UVI issue.

[SK]

From what I've been reading, it seems Windows users are more likely to have a problem running this in standalone, and I just PM'ed Tom to try it inside a DAW.

 

The standalone is supposed to work fine on Windows or Mac. But I've also noticed True Keys and Ravenscroft seem to run 'a little rougher' in standalone on my older iMac, but flawlessly inside of Logic as an instrument plug-in.

[ITGITC]

 

I'm going to load a copy of Sonar on my Windows 8.1 machine.

 

I have no experience using any VSTi as a plug-in, but I'm sure I'll figure it out.

 

Guru, I am running the audio through the standard audio interface on the motherboard of my PC. I completely disconnected the Firebox, then rebooted the machine.

 

Opening the Task Manager, I don't see any applications that are using many CPU cycles, to speak of. However, there is one called Windows Audio Device Graph Isolation. Hmmmmm, I wonder if that got loaded because I'm using the Casio through USB 2.0?

 

Sit tight. I'm going to continue to troubleshoot this, and I WILL get to the bottom of it. (However, any help you guys can offer is certainly appreciated!)

 

Thanks!

 

Tom

 

 

 

[mate stubb]

No need to install a heavy daw to try it as a vst. Download a free and super lightweight VST host to run it inside.

 

I use this one.

[Ashville.Guru]

Guru, I am running the audio through the standard audio interface on the motherboard of my PC.

Cool, but remember - for using the builtin interface on Windows, Asio4All is absolutely necessary.

 

No need to install a heavy daw to try it as a vst. Download a free and super lightweight VST host to run it inside.

 

I use this one.

+1. Bidule is a more polished alternative.

 

Sit tight. I'm going to continue to troubleshoot this, and I WILL get to the bottom of it.

 

- Guru

[SK]

No need to install a heavy daw to try it as a vst. Download a free and super lightweight VST host to run it inside.

 

I use this one.

+1. Bidule is a more polished alternative.

Makes sense (suddenly glad I don't do Windows.)

[ITGITC]

 

I downloaded and installed Sonar X3 & tried the VST sounds that are packaged with it.

 

I continue to have latency problems.

 

[SK]

Then it's time to talk to Vi Labs. They have a phone# and email on their site and are very helpful. Sorry you're having this problem.

[Steve Nathan]

ITGITC,

Tried to send you a PM, but it says you are "over your limit"

 

Anyway, I've asked for help with your issues (since I know nothing about PCs). Hopefully help is on the way.

I have noticed (especially over at Piano World), that several PC users have initially had some similar issues to yours. Wish I could say I relate, but it seems to get along pretty well with Mac.

[ITGITC]

Thanks, Steve!!

 

I had to delete some messages - and did.

 

There are more things I'm going to try, but I'm a bit overwhelmed... I had to back. away. from. the. computer. - if ya know what I mean.

 

I think the UVI workstation is not the problem - since I'm also getting latency with Sonar X3 and their built in VST apps that I just downloaded & installed.

 

I'm going to try another driver with the internal audio from the motherboard now. This has been suggested, but I wanted to try Sonar first (with Windows native drivers).

 

I don't drink (much), but if I did, now would be the time.

 

 

 

 

[Markyboard]

EDIT: OK. The Casio WK-200 is connected to USB 2.0 on my Windows 8.1 machine.

 

The latency is just as bad as it was before.

 

So it's NOT the Firebox. But what is it?

 

I completely disconnected the Firebox and rebooted. The audio is coming from the computer's audio outputs.

Hmmmm... Does anyone have any ideas for me to try?

Thanks.

Signed,

Frustrated ITGITC?

 

Tom- reading back I know you switched midi controllers and went usb direct (no firebox interface). You said you were getting the same latency as with the firebox. You still have not exonerated the midi however. If your wk-200 has internal sounds I would turn off local control in the wk-200 and play its sound thru the pc/sonar back to the wk-200. With midi thru enabled on whatever track you have set up the midi info will be sent back to the wk-200 and play the sound. If you don't have latency then you know its audio. But if you do then you've got some kind of midi issue in your pc.

 

If I undestood correctly your last experiment with Sonar's internal vsti sounds shows this is not a UVI or Ravenscroft issue

[SK]

Before you go all "Lost Weekend" on us ... from the Vi Labs' site:

If youre having issues with your software we want to help.

 

If you prefer to e-mail us please send a message to support (at) vilabsaudio.com and someone from our staff will get back to you as soon as possible.

If you prefer to speak with someone on the phone, please feel free to give us a call.

 

Phone: 888 391 7078

Hours: Monday-Friday, 9am-6pm EST

I think they can help.

[ITGITC]

Suggestion #2: Ditch the FireBox (audio, at least). Install the Asio4all driver (free download, 411 kb), restart and try with the computer's builtin audio outputs. Make sure you choose the 'Asio4All' as the output device. Note: you might get pops and clicks at 64 buffers with Asio4All, in which case you'll have to move to 128.

 

- Guru

 

 

LATENCY FIXED!!!

 

For all of you who suggested the ASIO4ALL driver - Guru, SK, Markyboard, Steve Nathan... the beer is on ME!

 

At this point, I have the Casio WK-200 connected via MIDI to my Windows 8.1 PC. I tried the buffer at 64, but had to move up. Now I'm at 128 and there's no chattering. Smooth as a baby's butt!

 

I did the latency test where the audio of the Casio is panned to the left, while the audio coming from the PC's internal sound (Realtek High Definition Audio) is panned to the right.

 

NO LATENCY!!

 

So now I need to check the Firebox in place of the Casio USB connection.

 

Keep your fingers crossed, OK?

 

Thanks!

 

Tom

 

 

 

[Steve Nathan]

Quote:

If youre having issues with your software we want to help.

 

If you prefer to e-mail us please send a message to support (at) vilabsaudio.com and someone from our staff will get back to you as soon as possible.

If you prefer to speak with someone on the phone, please feel free to give us a call.

 

Phone: 888 391 7078

Hours: Monday-Friday, 9am-6pm EST

I think they can help.

 

Yeah, these guys are great at communication and have been IMHO a model of what Customer Service can be even with a small company. 180 degrees from my current experience with Outputsounds.com (makers of Rev). Like 9 or 10 emails or web "contact" forms, over 3 weeks before getting anything other than the usual "we will respond within 24hrs" autogen.

 

[Markyboard]

- Guru

 

 

LATENCY FIXED!!!

 

For all of you who suggested the ASIO4ALL driver - Guru, SK, Markyboard, Steve Nathan... the beer is on ME!

 

 

Awesome- good job Tom! Some how I thought you had already done this with no luck so scratch my previous midi troubleshooting suggestion. Oh and to be honest take me off the credit list for suggesting the ASIO4all driver. Unless of course you're buying Moog Sub-37s for all who did

[SK]

LATENCY FIXED!!!

Me too, I'll have a moog with that beer.

[ITGITC]

 

OK. I would have posted sooner, but I got lost in the music.

 

No kidding. Ravenscroft has got balls to the walls! When I hit a bass note this thing is SOLID! OMG!

 

When I want to play piano, I go to my Chickering in the living room. None of the digital pianos have done it form me like the Chickering.

 

But now, there's this Ravenscroft thing. And I'll be damned if it doesn't make me forget my troubles.

 

To get the FireBox working, I disconnected the Casio USB connection and the computer's audio outputs. I reconnected the MIDI outputs of the PC2X to the Firebox.

 

The Firebox drivers were obliterated when I installed the ASIO4ALL driver. So I had to reinstall them. I went back to Presonus' website to make sure I had the latest ones.

 

Well, once again, the drivers didn't install under Windows 8.1. And, once again, I had to use compatibility mode.

 

I rebooted and crossed my fingers.

 

Well... it worked. And I don't care what Tom's Hardware says about the Realtek audio vs. outboard devices. The dynamic range I'm hearing is KILLER! So, is it because of Ravenscroft, or is it because of the FireBox? Probably some of both, I think.

 

OK, I still haven't thoroughly read the manual and tried all the mic positions and effects, of course. I had to get this latency thing out of the way first.

 

I'll do it. But right now I'm going back to playing music.

 

You know... you can find inspiration from a lot of things. But when you sit down to play a tune... you finish it, let that last note ring until it's silent, and you can't help but say to yourself, "Damn that sounded good!"...

 

Well, that's inspiration.

 

Thanks gentlemen.

 

 

[Ashville.Guru]

Sweet! Glad things worked out, Tom.

 

The dynamic range I'm hearing is KILLER! So, is it because of Ravenscroft, or is it because of the FireBox? Probably some of both, I think.

The entire signal chain from sound engine to monitors matters. Your FireBox is a pro-audio device with a dynamic range of 110 dB. Typical consumer grade built-in audio outputs have a much lesser range, which won't let you enjoy the full experience of software pianos. Also, the DACs on your FireBox should be much better.

 

EDIT: The Ravenscroft VI 'Dynamics' knob is by default at 96%. This is typical of most software pianos, keeping in mind built-in audio outs. With the FireBox, you can increase this to 100%, and crank up your monitors. Your fingers will have control over the softest pppp to thundering ffff. The kind control you only get in an 11-foot grand

 

You know... you can find inspiration from a lot of things. But when you sit down to play a tune... you finish it, let that last note ring until it's silent, and you can't help but say to yourself, "Damn that sounded good!"...

 

Well, that's inspiration.

 

- Guru

[Steve Nathan]

No kidding. Ravenscroft has got balls to the walls! When I hit a bass note this thing is SOLID! OMG!

 

....this Ravenscroft thing.I'll be damned if it doesn't make me forget my troubles.

 

So happy to hear we are now both enjoying the same experience. I know it's just "ones and zeros" , but holy cr*p it is exciting and inspiring to sit and play this thing.

[midinut]

No kidding. Ravenscroft has got balls to the walls! When I hit a bass note this thing is SOLID! OMG!

 

....this Ravenscroft thing.I'll be damned if it doesn't make me forget my troubles.

 

So happy to hear we are now both enjoying the same experience. I know it's just "ones and zeros" , but holy cr*p it is exciting and inspiring to sit and play this thing.

 

^^^ What they both said. Man it is an awesome piano. Lost myself for hours playing it. Thanks to all for the recommendation!

[SK]

No kidding. Ravenscroft has got balls to the walls! When I hit a bass note this thing is SOLID! OMG!

 

....this Ravenscroft thing.I'll be damned if it doesn't make me forget my troubles.

 

So happy to hear we are now both enjoying the same experience. I know it's just "ones and zeros" , but holy cr*p it is exciting and inspiring to sit and play this thing.

 

^^^ What they both said. Man it is an awesome piano. Lost myself for hours playing it. Thanks to all for the recommendation!

Dittos. Glad Tom and midinut finally can enjoy this. And amazing that $150 can buy this instrument. Somebody should post some demos.

[Mark Schmieder]

I'm still without a weighted keyboard controller (after selling my PC3X early last year and not yet deciding on its replacement), so haven't really dug into it yet, but am already super-impressed even with synth keys triggering it. It doesn't seem to suffer the problems that Ivory has with making a phrase sound fluid and organic. Up to now I only got those kind of results from Pianoteq.

[chas50]

I posted this at PW. figured I'd post it here too.

by the way, I am brand new to SW pianos.

I just got both of the 2 that I have.

 

I played Ravenscroft for the first time today.

I played for a short time this morning. I thought it sounded ok. but just ok. not overwhelmed. really barely whelmed.

went through the 5 choices.

stopped. came back a few hours later.

played the first choice only.

played through my monitors. (have not tried it through headphones.)

I played around with Ivory II ACD first.

then Ravenswood.

blown away. way way far away. like nirvana land. I did not play much up top. not a lot way low either.

but I played for well over an hour.

to say I was inspired, does not even hint at what happened.

it was a sublime experience.

I adjusted no settings, until the very end. I turned pedal noise down a ways. it was all the way up, and ridiculously loud.

I had my monitors turned up a bit.

I wailed. I mean I wailed.

it might as well have been a real Concert Grand Raven-Stein-Fazi-Bosen-Bluth..... I think you get the picture.

one problem. plenty of pops.....snap crackle...artifacts......whatever they're called.

I tried changing the buffer.....64......128.....256.......no good.

I put it back to 64....(higher was no better, might have been worse).....emailed support.

not pleased about this. hoping to get this remedied.

I could play whatever I wanted on ACD with its Cantabile. not a single pop. (I have to play ACD more to decide how much I like it. this little tale is regarding the long awaited, finally here RW.)

ok. getting to TLDR length....no thank you.

[SK]

chas50, I'm not sure whether you're saying you had the "sublime experience" with Ravenscroft or Ivory. But for the pops and cracks, try to not run it in standalone mode (if you are). Open it in a host or DAW... that might fix your problem. That's the only advice I have until Vi Labs or someone else offers a better solution.