Just did a shootout at GC today SV1 vs Krome vs MoxF vs CP4

[miden]

Don't forget you have 32 song locations, so in effect you can have 32 x 16 = 512 different setups available at the touch of a button (or two) and then more can be dynamically loaded in from USB.

[AnotherScott]

The downer with MM is that a Master set cannot be selected via CC messages as can Performances and Voices (ie Bank and Patch #). A Master can be selected only via Sysex messages, a major mistake imo from Yamaha.

 

It is why I use either Song mode with the 16 available voices (and remember one can also set up splits and layers in song mode if you set the same channel to parts, and then adjust the key ranges. ) or Performance mode.

 

Either one of which can be selected via CC remotely. So a setup (using an iPad) can be to have a chart (or running sheet) with a midi file linked on the iPad so that as soon as the chart is selected, the midi "control setup file" is sent to select the appropriate Song, or Performance on the keyboard.

If you use Set List Maker on the iPad, it can send Sysex just as it can send "regular" MIDI commands. So once you bring the iPad into it, voila, you've also added a way to change Master banks!

 

[Sven Golly]

The downer with MM is that a Master set cannot be selected via CC messages as can Performances and Voices (ie Bank and Patch #). A Master can be selected only via Sysex messages, a major mistake imo from Yamaha.

 

Would it be too impertinent of me to suggest that, by the very name, that mode isn't meant to be controlled from an external source?

 

[mikecorbett]

In song or pattern mode you can use up to 16 voices. In performance you can use up to 4. In voice mode, 1 voice.

 

By using master mode you can instantly move to selections from any of these modes. So if you need a patch that uses 6 voices for your first song, I push of a buttin MM and your there. Next song is a preset voice, one push and your there. Etc, etc. no need to be switching in between modes. Aparts from the other advantages Sven mentioned this makes MM a no brainer.. but if your happy without it, thats cool.

[miden]

However one big "gotcha" in Master Mode is the max limit of 4 midi channels (8 on the Motif). EG :if you select Song Mode in your Master, you drop to four available midi channels, NOT the 16 in song mode. Be aware of that limitation. 16 available setups is only achievable when in dedicated Song Mode.

 

 

[Bill H.]

Then onto the casio Px5s, again, staff didn't know they had one ?? very lightweight, good useable piano and EP sound, but other sounds didn't do it, and I really didn't connect with the action as much as I hoped for, the feel of the keybed just didn't feel right,

The whole point is Im looking at something to use as a bottom board for good AP, EP , and nice string, pads, maybe other sounds.

 

You might want to give the PX-5s one more spin before deciding. Pianos and pads are it's strengths, as well as strings if they are of the synth type (sampled ROM strings and other ROM instruments not so much). Default keyboard touch doesn't connect with me either, but you can adjust that (coarsely) with the System Settings button right next to the volume pot, and then more finely in individual sound edits.

 

Now that I've adjusted it, I find the action a lot better than the MOXf8 - just personally of course. Haven't played a CP4 yet.

 

I'm mostly bringing this up because money seems to be at least partially an issue. I picked up my PX-5s for just $825 during one of those online 15% off sales.

 

Why I got more than 15% off I have no clue, but I didn't ask questions

 

 

[miden]

The downer with MM is that a Master set cannot be selected via CC messages as can Performances and Voices (ie Bank and Patch #). A Master can be selected only via Sysex messages, a major mistake imo from Yamaha.

 

Would it be too impertinent of me to suggest that, by the very name, that mode isn't meant to be controlled from an external source?

 

Sven...it is not a matter of being controlled at all...you missed the point it is a case of SELECTING a master, not controlling it!

[objectguru]

I perform with a Kurzweil PC3K8 and I love it - built like a tank, excellent action and sounds. Cost is a bit higher - about 3500 with the KORE64 upgrade.

[mikecorbett]

However one big "gotcha" in Master Mode is the max limit of 4 midi channels (8 on the Motif). EG :if you select Song Mode in your Master, you drop to four available midi channels, NOT the 16 in song mode. Be aware of that limitation. 16 available setups is only achievable when in dedicated Song Mode.

 

 

Didn't realise that, good to know! I remember it wasnt an issue on my old Motif XS, but that may be because of the 8 channels you mentioned. I never needed more than that in a patch.

[mikecorbett]

The downer with MM is that a Master set cannot be selected via CC messages as can Performances and Voices (ie Bank and Patch #). A Master can be selected only via Sysex messages, a major mistake imo from Yamaha.

 

Would it be too impertinent of me to suggest that, by the very name, that mode isn't meant to be controlled from an external source?

 

Sven...it is not a matter of being controlled at all...you missed the point it is a case of SELECTING a master, not controlling it!

 

I would guess that Sven got the point, but meant that master mode is designed so you use your Yammy as, well, a master, thus you select patches from other units from master mode, not the other way around.

[miden]

Yes I get that Mike but being able to select a Master via MIDI would be invaluable (using the iPad song running sheet example from above)...it is not a biggie, and I could work around it fine, not that I use Master mode much, but it is just one of those things I cannot figure why Yamaha left it out of the spec.

[HAMEGZ]

Yes I get that Mike but being able to select a Master via MIDI would be invaluable (using the iPad song running sheet example from above)...it is not a biggie, and I could work around it fine, not that I use Master mode much, but it is just one of those things I cannot figure why Yamaha left it out of the spec.

 

I am in the same scenario as you, it would be nice to use set maker to select a master mode, but I already have any single voice programmed into a performance, so I can stay in that mode.

 

I am wondering since the master mode just stores pointers to the appropriate mode, and selecting a master memory location sends the correct MSB/LSB PC for the programmed slots, if the reason why Yamaha didnt include external MSB/LSB for master selection is there has to be that "mechanical" selection and the tier cannot go that deep? But then again I dont know what goes on under the hood when you press a master memory location

 

btw THIS is a great link to explaining the master mode

[Sven Golly]

I would guess that Sven got the point, but meant that master mode is designed so you use your Yammy as, well, a master, thus you select patches from other units from master mode, not the other way around.

 

Exactly. There can only be one Master (capitalized for the Doctor Who fans in the room ).

 

Yes I get that Mike but being able to select a Master via MIDI would be invaluable (using the iPad song running sheet example from above)...it is not a biggie, and I could work around it fine, not that I use Master mode much, but it is just one of those things I cannot figure why Yamaha left it out of the spec.

 

Again, from Yamaha's perspective, they are the master. That would be akin to designing a car that could be steered by the guy behind you in traffic.

[Synthoid]

There can only be one Master (capitalized for the Doctor Who fans in the room ).

 

Guilty.

 

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/Versions_of_the_Master.png

 

[miden]

 

Again, from Yamaha's perspective, they are the master. That would be akin to designing a car that could be steered by the guy behind you in traffic.

 

Well, no not really - that is a rather silly analogy

[Sven Golly]

 

Again, from Yamaha's perspective, they are the master. That would be akin to designing a car that could be steered by the guy behind you in traffic.

 

Well, no not really - that is a rather silly analogy

 

Sigh. Perhaps exaggeration for effect isn't popular in Australia?

[miden]

No it is fine Sven, I "got" the first bit and the bold Yamaha and the intent (I think) I agree with you on that point (by Yamaha lights they are the master)....the latter sentence was what I thought was a poor analogy...

 

anyhoo, moving right along....

[Sven Golly]

anyhoo, moving right along....

 

Indeed.

[Tusker]

I like master mode ... It's worth pointing out that there is also some difference in your ability to dedicate sliders to different tasks in Master mode versus say Performance mode.

 

While Master mode is simply a pointer to a patch, performance or mix vis-a-vis the synth's engine, it does make a difference (at least on my S90ES) with respect to the synth's interface while you are performing. At times you might prefer to use one mode and at other times another.

[Brettymike]

I would guess that Sven got the point, but meant that master mode is designed so you use your Yammy as, well, a master, thus you select patches from other units from master mode, not the other way around.

 

Exactly. There can only be one Master (capitalized for the Doctor Who fans in the room ).

 

Yes I get that Mike but being able to select a Master via MIDI would be invaluable (using the iPad song running sheet example from above)...it is not a biggie, and I could work around it fine, not that I use Master mode much, but it is just one of those things I cannot figure why Yamaha left it out of the spec.

 

Again, from Yamaha's perspective, they are the master. That would be akin to designing a car that could be steered by the guy behind you in traffic.

 

Brilliant.

My friendly Tax man would drive mine if he had half a chance.

 

Brett

[icarusi]

I see the MOXF has a 'huge total of 741 MB of waveforms'. On which planet is 741MB still 'huge'? The smallest portable devices have 8Gb now. Ok maybe not fast memory or quality samples therein but 0.75Gb isn't much.

[Sven Golly]

I see the MOXF has a 'huge total of 741 MB of waveforms'. On which planet is 741MB still 'huge'? The smallest portable devices have 8Gb now. Ok maybe not fast memory or quality samples therein but 0.75Gb isn't much.

 

Yeah, because what I want in a musical instrument is 8GB of slow memory and crappy sample quality.

[AnotherScott]

I see the MOXF has a 'huge total of 741 MB of waveforms'. On which planet is 741MB still 'huge'?

On planet synth. 741 is more than anything ever made by Roland or Kurzweil, more than any Korg except Kronos and Krome, and close to the top of the line Nord.

 

While you may be correct that "the smallest portable devices have 8 gB" the question is, 8 gb of what? Not directly executable code space. The iPads have either 512mb or, if they have retina displays, 1 gb of actual memory (and much of the RAM is occupied with OS and video memory, it's not all available), the 16+ GB figure is storage. Yamaha's figure is more akin to the former than the latter, as all that data is instantly accessible (i.e. as if it were in RAM, as opposed to if it were storage). It's similar to how, in a computer, you can't mix up the purposes (or price) of RAM and hard drive, even though both are measured in gigabytes. The distinction has gotten a little hazy with the use of storage as virtual memory (which is OS and hardware dependent), but they are still very different things even though they are measured the same way. So saying "a gigabyte isn't much" is like saying "a gallon isn't much." Out of context, it has no meaning... it depends what you're measuring.

[miden]

@ Sven +1

@ AS +1

 

Good points guys. Although it can be difficult to convince some dedicated VSTi folks

[Sven Golly]

On planet synth.

 

 

I gotta say, Scott, there are times I admire your patience and energy.

[icarusi]

Memory or all types is relatively cheap. I see Yamaha are using propietery modules too. The Krome has 3.8GB of sample memory on a similarly priced item, so what's Yamaha's excuse for 0.75GB?

 

BTW if you need any spare chips for your $/£300-400 1GB module they're circa $16 each, as low as $4.15 if you buy in quantity.

 

[HAMEGZ]

Memory or all types is relatively cheap. I see Yamaha are using propietery modules too. The Krome has 3.8GB of sample memory on a similarly priced item, so what's Yamaha's excuse for 0.75GB?

I have a Krome with the 3 gigs of samples, to ME its acoustic piano sounds like shite compared to the MOXF internal pianos or the CP1 flash.. and the other waves are so so

 

but thats just me I probably dont know crap

[Sven Golly]

Memory or all types is relatively cheap. I see Yamaha are using propietery modules too. The Krome has 3.8GB of sample memory on a similarly priced item, so what's Yamaha's excuse for 0.75GB?

 

 

They're trying to piss you off. It's personal. I wouldn't stand for it, if I were you. I'd write a letter.

 

[AnotherScott]

I gotta say, Scott, there are times I admire your patience and energy.

 

Memory or all types is relatively cheap. I see Yamaha are using propietery modules too. The Krome has 3.8GB of sample memory on a similarly priced item, so what's Yamaha's excuse for 0.75GB?

 

BTW if you need any spare chips for your $/£300-400 1GB module they're circa $16 each, as low as $4.15 if you buy in quantity.

Check post #2534771 at https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2532443/Re_Yamaha_MOXF

which estimated the cost at the time at $60 for the set of 8 (which is toward the middle of your range)... as shown in that thread, $60 in raw chip cost does not make a $299 board a rip-off.

 

Korg is doing something different and interesting with the Krome, a low cost board with that kind of large set of sample data. I'm not sure, but I think what they are doing is storing the data in slow flash, and then loading it into RAM at startup, which would also explain the long boot time. Whatever they are doing is a new system for them... everything has to be done first by someone. OTOH, there are people who have posted that they would not buy a Krome because of the boot time, so still, there are trade-offs and you can't please everyone.

 

(Edit: Also, when saying company X gives you more something at a given price than company Y, you also need to consider what company Y may be giving you something over company X as well. For example, in this case, most people say that Yamaha's action is better. Paraphrasing an old post of mine in another context, there are lots of features you can find in thousand dollar boards, but if you put them all into the same board, you don't have a thousand dollar board anymore.)

 

I believe the Krome's sample set breaks down to 2.8 gb piano, 600 mb of EPs, about 150 mb drums and 256 mb for everything else. So once you factor out the piano and EPs, Yamaha actually has more sample data left for everything else. But as Ham&Egz' post demonstrated, people don't even necessarily think the big Krome piano actually sounds any better than the Yamaha, so then, for them, what difference does the bigger spec make?

 

In the end, I think what is most relevant is that you're not buying a box of specs, you're buying a design and sound set that works for you, and the R&D that went into creating that.

 

 

[Leh173]

[

 

In the end, I think what is most relevant is that you're not buying a box of specs, you're buying a design and sound set that works for you, and the R&D that went into creating that.

 

 

Couldn't agree more.