OT: Is chronic depression more prevalent among musicians?

[timwat]

I'm curious, for personal reasons. I have been battling for a number of years and it doesn't seem to be getting much better.

 

I've read the occasional observation that this is endemic to creatives but wondering if any forum members have seen the same kinds of things with musos and other artists.

[Philip Clark]

I was diagnosed with depression when I was 17. It's something I've always had to be aware of given my family's mental health history. I don't know if artists are more prone to it. Perhaps they're more vocal about it/channel it through the art. Maybe that's why it seems more prevalent with creative types.

 

It's great to acknowledge and talk about this subject, particularly if you're an artist. I'll be watching this thread and will chime in if anyone wants me to.

[Keyboard-girl]

Sorry to hear that Timwat. I know a dozen or so muso's, and the only thing they are depressed about is the lack of cash!

 

I have never suffered myself, but then again, I'm not very creative or talented!

 

Not making light of your condition, just trying to cheer you up.

 

Regards, KG

[opdigits]

From my understanding of depression, it can have differing levels of severity, and can manifest itself in differing ways for different reasons that may be unique to the sufferer, and/or can show up in ways that may be similar to other sufferers.

 

I suspect I suffer from some form of depression but have never been diagnosed as having it nor have I sought out a diagnosis.

 

My better half and one of my daughters both are officially diagnosed with it however (my daughter is in treatment, both through medication and with therapy; better half is not currently in therapy but does take meds and intends to start up her therapy again now that she is fully insured again), so I've attempted to educate myself on the subject to the best of my ability.

 

I also suspect that there are many others like myself that may have it (and may or may not know that) but have never been diagnosed nor sought out a diagnosis. Our type probably does not exhibit those obvious "signs" (suicidal thoughts/tendencies, etc.) that warrant immediate attention. Rather, we just "feel down" on occasion and just deal with it by taking whatever positive steps we can to alleviate that feeling. Music helps, both listening and playing, in my case.

 

Some of those I know are musicians or work in other creative arts fields, but none of them exhibit their depression in a dangerous manner. Other than that personal observation I have no empirical data.

 

For yourself timwat, and if you decline to answer for any reason I fully understand, what do you mean by "battling it?" Are you under the care of a doctor or therapist? Do you take meds for it? And why does it not seem to be getting better to you?

 

Either way, I sincerely hope that you someday soon overcome your depression!

[solpincus]

It seems to be. You really find that out in Big Bands, where you see certain individuals placed amongst others they would not usually tear herring with. I am Bi-Polar II, and have always battled depression , as well as Manic episodes . Bi-Polar II is one of the most mis-diagnosed conditions : the manic episodes are less dramatic than B-Polar I ( classic Manic Depression ) & the depression is a little bit less. I read that Bi-Polar II is more prevalent among Musicians. I have know many classic Manic Depressives, & have some kind of frame of reference. While Manic Depression has more severe ups & downs, Bipolar II is chronically worse, & has a higher rate of Suicide than Bipolar I, because the condition among Bi Polar II among much more constant than bipolar I. The problem with Bipolar II is that the manic Episode for bipolar II often appears from the outside as simply ' high-achievemant ' , or as inspired surliness or overly quick temper tantrums that excel in a degree that seems excessive. Many people are unaware of their condition, or are quite surprised when people react negatively to their behavior. ' Rapid Cycling' is common among Bi polar II, as is the classic obsessive compulsive is also common. I personally take Five different psychological prescriptions, in addition to the other 12 pre-scripts for Cancer, chronic pain, & cholesterol . Ufortuanately, the anti psychotic that i take, Seroquel, is the worst offender for excessive weight gain, but i lift weights & exercise to balance that. One of my biggest problems is keeping long term gigs with clubs, because the club-owner becomes simply un-nerved by my rapid change of moods, & bizarre humor. I take comfort, however, in the fact that Manic Depression , in any stage, is quite common among players & artists. In my experience, Bi-polar people who have no artistic or musical abilities are often quite dull, & dreary to be around, because their apparent lack of imagination keeps them in a shell of subjective internalization , while their lack of empathy for others keeps them isolated from more socially adept people.

Keyboard-girl ! You have to be somehow creative & talented to be on this forum ! Your attempt to cheer someone up also indicates that you have remarkable empathy for others ! Don't sell yourself short !

[I-missRichardTee]

Dwell on these thoughts and leave religious argument OUT of it... these are two people who said

 

"Life is suffering" I think that is the first sentence in a book by M Scott Peck famed psychologist. And it is a quote, not his idea!

 

and another said

 

'In this life ye shall have trials and tribulation.. but be ye of good cheer for I have overcome the world.'

 

One other said.. "Get out of my delusion"

 

knowing these people said these things, and that they were not depressed when they said them, offers hope.

 

[marino]

I'm no expert, so I'll go with my guts.

 

I guess that most people (though not all) who are sensitive to music and arts are also more sensitive to emotions in real life. So they're able to feel extreme joy *and* extreme sadness as well.

Personally, knowing since childhood that I'm an extremely emotional and reactive person, I've always tried to turn negative feelings into something that could teach me something about life. In other words, I've always tried to not fall into any deep depressional state, even thru traumatic experiences like the loss of loved ones, end of relationships, etc.

When you're able to do that, the negative feel can turn into emotional energy - which is a great, enthralling feeling in itself.

 

The paradox: I'm starting to know what depression means now. Not because I'm getting older (although that doesn't help), and not because of lack of love or good health , but because of the horrid state of the musical (and economic/general) affairs in today's world, and in my little part of the world in particular. It's not philosophic, it's very real: While I find myself at a peak of my artistic development - for what it's worth - I also find that making a living as a musician it's becoming an impossibility in today's economy. I am really struggling to survive, accepting horrible gigs which pay almost nothing, teaching long hours, etc. just to buy food and supporting my ailing 92 y.o. mother. After a lifetime dedicated to music, and 35+ years of leading a decent life as a freelance musician, this is not easy to take.

In practice, that means living on credit cards, selling beloved instruments, not being able to purchase the instruments I'd need, not having a car anymore (where I live, that's serious), not being able to take my other half out even for a pizza, etc.

 

That's my source of depression; sometimes, I feel so helpless about this whole situation, that just watching the years going by on the edge of survival, and not being able to do what I have set up myself to do for my whole existence, becomes rather unbearable. It takes by the throat, and there's no control about it.

 

However, I feel that all life experiences have to be lived fully, and I'm very against 'stabilizing' your emotional attitude with drugs of any kind - *especially* of the pharmacological kind. Only in case of serious psychotic episodes, or suicide attitude, etc., I would approve of a limited use of drugs. Our emotions are from the deepest part of our spirit, so we should try to not block them, but rather be friend with them in my opinion.

 

I apologize for the long venting... fact is, I guess I'm having these kind of thoughts in my head quite a lot lately, so I took the opportunity to put them in writing.

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

I'm no expert, so I'll go with my guts.

 

I guess that most people (though not all) who are sensitive to music and arts are also more sensitive to emotions in real life. So they're able to feel extreme joy *and* extreme sadness as well.

Personally, knowing since childhood that I'm an extremely emotional and reactive person, I've always tried to turn negative feelings into something that could teach me something about life. In other words, I've always tried to not fall into any deep depressional state, even thru traumatic experiences like the loss of loved ones, end of relationships, etc.

When you're able to do that, the negative feel can turn into emotional energy - which is a great, enthralling feeling in itself.

 

The paradox: I'm starting to know what depression means now. Not because I'm getting older (although that doesn't help), and not because of lack of love or good health , but because of the horrid state of the musical (and economic/general) affairs in today's world, and in my little part of the world in particular. It's not philosophic, it's very real: While I find myself at a peak of my artistic development - for what it's worth - I also find that making a living as a musician it's becoming an impossibility in today's economy. I am really struggling to survive, accepting horrible gigs which pay almost nothing, teaching long hours, etc. just to buy food and supporting my ailing 92 y.o. mother. After a lifetime dedicated to music, and 35+ years of leading a decent life as a freelance musician, this is not easy to take.

In practice, that means living on credit cards, selling beloved instruments, not being able to purchase the instruments I'd need, not having a car anymore (where I live, that's serious), not being able to take my other half out even for a pizza, etc.

 

That's my source of depression; sometimes, I feel so helpless about this whole situation, that just watching the years going by on the edge of survival, and not being able to do what I have set up myself to do for my whole existence, becomes rather unbearable. It takes by the throat, and there's no control about it.

 

However, I feel that all life experiences have to be lived fully, and I'm very against 'stabilizing' your emotional attitude with drugs of any kind - *especially* of the pharmacological kind. Only in cases on serious psychotic episodes, or suicide attitude, etc., I would approve on a limited use of drugs. Our emotions are from the deepest part of our spirit, so we should try to be friend with them in my opinion.

 

I apologize for the long venting... fact is, I guess I have these kind of thoughts quite a lot lately, so I took the opportunity to put them in writing.

 

"Apology"?? Not at all, I applaud this. Thank you very much.

I would add... there might be construed two forms of depression "inside your head" kind, and externally caused depression.

Ultimately we have to learn somehow or other that we can overcome the "fundamental sadness" of life aka Antonio Jobim's "Meditation".

Victor Frankl did he was a Holocaust survivor!!

[J. Dan]

I'm no expert, just have opinions based on my experience with myself and others who were close to me.

 

First, what's depression? I've always pondered this. I mean, if you're life really is crappy, how happy should you be? I don't mean that ligh-heartedly. Different people have different life experiences, and I think personality, to some degree affects how you will handle all that life throws at you.

 

That said, I personally believe that there are 3 components to either depression as we recognize it: brain chemistry, personality, and environmental.

 

Environmental would be the things that happen to you - your circumstances...going back to how you learned to deal with challenges on through to the things that happen to you. If you lose a loved one, you'll be depressed for a while, but I don't consider that "depression".

 

However, sometimes, even when everything in life should be great, depression persists. I believe that is due to brain chemistry - lower than normal levels of things like seratonin. In these cases, medication can straighten that out. Unfortunately, brain chemistry is a delicate balance and there's a lot of trial and error in getting the right medication with the right dosages.

 

Personality is a bit more complex. While it CAN affect your outlook and how you perceive things, i think it has a greater affect on how you deal with what you already feel. In other words, 2 people who both suffer from depression but have different personality types might handle it and express it (or not express it) differently. Here's where musicians come in. I think musicians are more used to expressing emotion through music and are therefore more likely to express depression (which is not necessarily a bad thing). That does not necessarily mean a higher instance of depression, just that it's more recognizable because they express their emotions more.

[ksoper]

I'm no expert, so I'll go with my guts.

 

...I feel that all life experiences have to be lived fully, and I'm very against 'stabilizing' your emotional attitude with drugs of any kind - *especially* of the pharmacological kind. Only in case of serious psychotic episodes, or suicide attitude, etc., I would approve of a limited use of drugs. Our emotions are from the deepest part of our spirit, so we should try to not block them, but rather be friend with them in my opinion.

 

 

 

I value your opinion and respectfully disagree.

 

I have been advised by my physician that I am one of those people whose body chemistry benefits greatly from a relatively low dose of a well-known and highly researched SSRI. Looking back, I should've been on some sort of mood stabilizer as early as age 18. It wasn't until I was 36 that I went on an anti-depressant for a year, following the death of my father and grandmother (who raised me) 8 days apart. I went back on meds in 2002 during a particularly arduous tour and have been on ever since. I take less than I did in previous years and am still able to experience the emotional highs and lows necessary to be an artist and a human.

 

Pharmaceuticals have their place. Whether you need them or not is up to you and your doctor.

 

Do artists experience more depression than civilians? I don't know, but almost everybody I run into is on "something."

 

...A *great* way to overcome depression is to look at someone who has successfully overcome much greater difficulties than the ones you are experiencing.

 

A co-worker and I discussed this a couple of weeks ago. For the sake of argument I took the opposite position, and posited that their pain is theirs and mine is mine, and each is valid. I'm delighted that people faced with great obstacles are able to overcome. I can, too. I just need a little help. "Better Living Through Chemistry," as the fine folks at DuPont said.

[marino]

"Apology"?? Not at all, I applaud this. Thank you very much.

I would add... there might be construed two forms of depression "inside your head" kind, and externally caused depression.

That's right... although I tend to believe that most people who suffer from depression "without reason", usually have just forgotten what the reason is. By digging into their past experiences (perhaps with some help from a therapist), those people can usually recognize some peculiar experience in their past life as the source of their present state.

 

Victor Frankl did he was a Holocaust survivor!!

Absolutely... a *great* way to overcome depression is to look at someone who has successfully overcomed much greater difficulties than the ones you are experiencing.

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

If you lose a loved one, you'll be depressed for a while, but I don't consider that "depression".

The way that I understand it, the best way to say it is that everyone gets depressed at some point(s) in their lives, but only some experience depression of the psychiatric or clinical kind.

 

As for myself, I can be very emotional. I would call this being a moody SOB. I think my wife would agree. I can get in a deep funk. But beyond that, I can't say and won't do anything for any sort of diagnosis.

 

What I can tell you is that when it gets really bad, it's not good for creativity. I find there's a place where creativity works, and I have to be in a good mood for that. It can reflect the lesser mood, but being in the lesser mood is too overbearing to create. So I suppose there's some creative energy from moods, but it's indirect in a way.

[Sam Mullins]

For the original topic: relevant link

 

For a general depression reference, a good one is Andrew Solomon's The Noonday Demon. A great read.

 

Regarding Frankl: I don't think his point was to feel better about your situation through looking at the misfortune in others' lives. As I recall his point was that suffering is sometimes unavoidable (as his experience in the death camps was) and that you strive to give your suffering meaning.

[solpincus]

Depression is a part of being human. it's when it lingers too long that it needs treatment. and, 'depression', like 'manic episode' are really little more than professional 'terms' that act like grab bags to physicians ( & people) who observe symptomatic traits in people , look for similarities , then put a label on it. The terms themselves do not come even close to explaining the ' condition'. In my experience, a painful period, or illness, often is a doorway to something sublime that the person has the potential to unlock. i've contemplated suicide, but i know that when i am depressed, something good will come out of it ultimately.

[solpincus]

I also know the difference between healthy melancholia , and the kind of blackness that comes to those in an abnormal way. then, again, players & artists, in their own uniqueness, often experience life in general much more intensely than the average joe whose main occupation is getting laid (nothing wrong with that !) or waiting for an opening at the pool hall.

[The Real MC]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/b851424deacf86d188b4cadbe763d493/tumblr_mf3zwolaOT1qhh9l6o1_500.jpg

 

http://blogs.denverpost.com/fetch/files/2010/03/Kitten-Caboodle.jpg

[David Emm]

 

The only tangible hope for a new psych drug ironically WORKS. Serotonin reuptake inhibitors are as bogus as hell, because serotonin only exists in the brain to about a 5% global saturation. Its shooting at a fly with a cannon, which is why its benefits are so minimal. Glutamate, OTOH, has about a 50% saturation and tweaks on ketamine, of all things, all but banish depressive symptoms. In electron microscope pictures, a depressed person's dendrites look like nubs. After a small infusion of ketamine, they stand up like rows of corn and begin to exchange neurotransmitters properly. People so treated express a major cessation of issues and some have taken up the threads of their lives to amazing degrees. Ketamine is a nasty animal tranquilizer wholly unsuited to regular use in its base state, but the core mechanism is close to being viably applicable. I believe third-stage human trials have at least begun, a good sign. The first generation will probably cost the Moon and slam the users of the first generation like bloody Prozac did, until its tweaked a bit, but what if its close to being the magic bullet? The mechanism says its chances are good.

 

This is also Special K, which "the kids" use to kick the crap out of their serotonin sites for a rave high, but the price is to become dulled and depressed long after the parties fade. Warn people when you can: E will disintegrate your ecstasy, long-term. Its the simple, scientific truth.

 

So if its successful and that wet blanket of roiling miseries is lifted, will it damage those alternate perceptions that lead to creativity? Or will it free them up from a new angle that applies energy formerly lost to that manta ray draped over their heads? Cue the TIME magazine covers.

 

 

 

[David Emm]

 

Note to self: If depressed, play the Theremin in wet feet. Home ECT is all the rage.

[keyClicker]

you're not alone...

[J. Dan]

then, again, players & artists, in their own uniqueness, often experience life in general much more intensely than the average joe whose main occupation is getting laid (nothing wrong with that !) or waiting for an opening at the pool hall.

 

How do you know? You can't be inside them and feel what they feel, only make judgements based on their activities vs yours, which was the whole point of my post. Maybe they are trying to get laid in a feeble attempt to fill some void that never gets filled.

[J. Dan]

My whole point - just because artists express it in a way in which you connect and understand doesn't mean others aren't depressed inside,

[sakari lindhen]

Well, I am not a very good musician, but I suffer, and am pensioned, from depression. Medicines have helped me a lot, as has having three kittens as well.

[solpincus]

How do I know ? It sounds like YOU, Pal, who needs to compare other people's inner activities with your own. You're doing the same thing you accused me of doing : Have you ever heard of EMPIRICAL EXPERIENCE ? In your case, i doubt it ...

[Doerfler]

I'm curious, for personal reasons. I have been battling for a number of years and it doesn't seem to be getting much better.

 

I've read the occasional observation that this is endemic to creatives but wondering if any forum members have seen the same kinds of things with musos and other artists.

 

where's Moonglow?

[GovernorSilver]

All I can say is good luck, Tim. Hopefully it's not clinical depression.

 

If it is, "puppy/kitty therapy" is not going to work...

[Moonglow]

where's Moonglow?

Hi guys, sorry for not chiming in. Since I deal with this at my day gig, sometimes I don't contribute to these type of threads in order to maintain my own mental health!

 

Lots of thoughtful expressions here. I was especially moved by solpincus posts. Bipolar disorder is a sonofabitch. I know of few conditions that are more disabling.

 

One thing people often tend to forget is that like the kidneys, spleen, liver, pancreas, etc., the brain is an organ, and like any other organ, it requires biochemical regulation. Check out the SPECT images below. If these dont provide convincing evidence that there is a biochemical basis for many mental disorders, then the earth is flat!

 

SPECT Images

 

So if therapy isnt working, I encourage people to be open to medication. However, as some have expressed here, psychotropic medication is not part of their belief system. Nonetheless, it has largely been my experience that in absence of biochemical regulation, any compensatory intervention (e.g., cognitive-behavioral therapy) will often be only modestly effective. Its like trying to manage insulin-dependent diabetes with diet alone (i.e., no insulin).

 

Regarding the OP, my initial reaction was that just about any job can be stressful, so I didnt expect much variability in depression among occupational categories. However, I did a little digging and found this (albeit somewhat dated) reference:

 

Depression among Adults Employed Full-Time, by Occupational Category

 

The category of Arts, Design, Entertainment, Sports, and Media was ranked 5th, averaging 9.1 major depressive episodes per year. Unstable pay, irregular work hours, and isolation seem to be the major predictive factors.

[HammondDave]

If you are an artist... You are depressed...

 

Not meant to make light of this serious issue... But my experience seems to be that we are especially susceptible to this condition due to our sensitivity.

[Michael W]

There's the blues, and there's being a bit bummed out, and there's some occasional sadness in life, and then there's -

 

depression.

 

Those of you who've been there know what I mean.

 

Don't believe in taking meds to try and cheer up? Yeah, I've been there. And then I woke up one day and was willing to try anything to get out of the black hole I was in. And then I got to the point where the hole was so deep that I didn't even care about finding a way out any more.

 

It's hard to imagine an existence when, for no apparent reason, nothing in life whatsoever provides any happiness.

 

I went through a couple of very, very dark times in my life, some years back. The thing is, I never saw them coming.

 

For those who know what I mean, I share your pain and wish you the best. For those who don't, I envy you.

 

 

[Adan]

Not to be dismissive of Timwat's or anyone else's situation, but why does it matter? If you're depressed, then you have to deal with it. I wouldn't recommend to anyone that they stop playing music or that they avoid other musicians. If anything, do more of that. And get a dog. Dog's (more than cats, imho), can teach us how to enjoy the simple things.

 

It's always been my impression that there is more depression among artists than among people in the financial world, sports, or the sciences. I'd still rather hang out with the artists any time. My parents were both university professors and so I grew up around university professors. Lots of depression and neurosis there. I suspect is the isolation and the intense competitiveness in what (in theory) is supposed to be an uncompetitive environment. In the business world or the legal world, the competitiveness is at least acknowledged and out in the open.

[keyClicker]

Bipolar disorder sucks... I love it!