(Hidden) jazz chords in Rock and Rock & Roll

[Theo Verelst]

Do you know that feeling when rehearsing "Satisfaction"

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a7cHPy04s8

 

or "Whole lot of shakin'"

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yRdDnrB5kM

 

with a not too great band, that no matter what you do on the uncomplicated keyboard, and no matter how well you rehearse, it somehow never, and I mean never, gets there that is sounds like the original ?

 

So why is that, instruments not good enough, missing the old speakers/amps the originals were performed on, missing some "shadow tracks" here and there ? Or do we have to look further, and deeper into the music, the instruments, and the production "tricks"?

 

My opinion is the latter. Get me right: I personally enjoy a not too-great but passable 4 people standard blues band just fine. I really, do, but I can't shake loose the feeling putting on a good record on the Juke-box, or in my very early years the big stereo or the big Disco system is somehow a magically much higher experience, achieved by technical and playing skills normally never paid attention to in this time, it seems.

 

Also, I believe that in Rock, pop (including simple enough sounding pop of the good kind) and in many other music forms, there's Jazz harmonies hidden at least in the reasons for the chords, inversions, singing, additional melodic lines (like brass) and bass to be plaid like they are.

 

Another interesting idea in the production area is the use of harmonization and the "feel" of the harmonicity of a space, check out the marvelous feels hidden in this musical gem (even if there aren't keys in the video):

 

[video:youtube]

 

Very good music. I can't help pondering for days already on which Jazz chords really are there of the tens of possibilities I'm slightly hearing.

 

Of course there's the Rock and Roll "jump" circuitry:

 

[video:youtube]

 

More examples ? Or do you chose to believe in pure playing skills on, like a decent piano in an acoustically dead space, or even only a rompler and headphones ?

 

Theo V.

[I-missRichardTee]

Good topic. Don't have answers. Just guessing Bill Haley music seemed to be recorded much SOFTER than present day music or any pop music in the past 40 years actually. Playing at lower levels is a very important aspect to this topic

 

But stones were not soft So I'm only guessing. A very good rhythm section Tight sounding guitar rhythm. Are guesses

Back in the day. We played the SAME ROOM sometimes weeks months even years at a time. I'm talking leaving your gear at the club. Because people did not steal and gigs were 5 6 even 7 nights in a row.

What this accomplishes. You have no idea unless you've experienced it

It makes very much tighter playing that I sorely miss now

[Baldwin Funster]

Most of the time the original artist doesnt sound EXACTLY like the record. There a frequently hidden subelements in the mix that you cant hear but take them out and you hear that they are gone.

[opdigits]

Simply choosing to play with a great band rather than a not too great band may have a lot to do with it.

 

And Tee brings up a good point. All the artists you embedded videos for were workhorse artists. These guys and their musical cohorts played a LOT, both live and in the studio! IMO, most "passable" musicians, when put in the situation wherein they are playing 5-7 nights a week every week sometimes for years in a row, and including studio work off times or days, will develop that intuitive familiarity that gives their sound that subtle tightness, sophistication, and groove that you just don't get otherwise. They also either become bored stiff and bland, or are forced to utilize creativity that they maybe wouldn't normally. They graduate from passable to highly accomplished.

 

I've greatly oversimplified it, but I believe this has a lot to do with it.

[Delaware Dave]

Listen to Steely Dan; jazz chords everywhere.

[Theo Verelst]

Great comments.

 

About the workhorses, I suppose they're often not taken serious enough, I mean, it's like even a "normal" blues band would have to wade through a ton of sh8t just to pass some sort of corporal ordeal to get taken serious.. That ain't right.

 

[opdigits]

Great comments.

 

About the workhorses, I suppose they're often not taken serious enough, I mean, it's like even a "normal" blues band would have to wade through a ton of sh8t just to pass some sort of corporal ordeal to get taken serious.. That ain't right.

Amen, Brother!

[David Loving]

So what are the "jazz" chords in the Fats Domino example? In my view it's straight ahead simplicity and good lyrics on top of a solid groove. Drums and bass carries all this. Locked in solid groove. Ever checked how many charted records Fats sold? Check out the singles list Fats Virtually no amateur band can get that true Fats Domino sound.

Jazz chords are fun to slip in but they can't mess with the groove and they really must fit.

[WesG]

Ever wondered what made The Beatles great? Talent sure played a part, but I think their Hamburg gigs -- where they played 7 days a week, 4-6 hours a day in a strip club for a few months -- had a LOT to do with it.

[Jazz+]

"(Hidden) jazz chords in Rock and Rock & Roll"

 

Is it a full moon tonight?

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Being a bass player as well as keys.. I am very conscious of groove. How many of you are very clear about this?: Many moons ago I was fortunate to be in a busy trio that worked same room for 4 5 nights a week.. for over a year ( I cannot recall details any longer !) Ok, so this band is pretty tight. Dig this.. one day ( after a year had passed ) a different substitute singer does the gig. With the presence of this substitute singer- That was the first time I was so strongly impressed by the fact that, even with the singer ( I never would have thought this to be the case ) - not just good tone, or "soul", charisma, repertoire, dynamic performer, camaraderie with crowd, or name whatever it is that you like about a singer... none of those things... this new guy sung a different rhythmic conception... he felt rhythmically different .. and consequently I played differently... again NOT because of emotional factors... his sound, tone, vibe, whatever... no no, his GROOVE. The singers different Groove profoundly affected MY groove... just like when you play with a different drummer. This experience amazed me.. and still does to a degree. Melody rendered differently alters the time feel. This is iron clad fact. Since that time, I have taken this experience and applied it to guitar, sax, trumpet etc. EVERYONE in the band has a strong effect on the groove.. not just bass and drums.. my buds.. no no.. everyone even the singer, esp the singer!

You work with James Brown, and you would no longer doubt it. It's the same thing all across the board... any instrument or voice!! So, a band really gets tight #1 playing in same room, has always been my thing.. I dislike moving from room to room, because of the effect ( crap shoot ) of the acoustics.. and acoustics effect the way you play your groove.. I have always said "tone and time" they are interrelated. Same room= equals more consistent tone.

#2 The same players... a collective groove happens in a unvaried group... that I really appreciate.

That singer influenced by bass playing as much as a drummer.. no lie.

[I-missRichardTee]

Ever wondered what made The Beatles great? Talent sure played a part, but I think their Hamburg gigs -- where they played 7 days a week, 4-6 hours a day in a strip club for a few months -- had a LOT to do with it.

 

Ditto on that. And the Great Jaco P spoke about an intense playing schedule where he was playing a lot of dance music... great for chops, AND groove!! aka TIGHT!

[I-missRichardTee]

In defense of the hidden chord hypothesis... some pop music has some of those hidden harmonies. Of course is related to how well you can hear or perceive those harmonies. But I know I have listened to a recording of some pop song, and at first did not notice certain more interesting harmonies than suddenly came to my attention on repeated careful listening - aka "hidden". They were dropped down in the mix perhaps.. these are generalizations. So Don't hold me to specifics ;-) whether jazz harmony or not, is subject to what harmonies, in which eras, and is too vague to argue.. but certainly more interesting harmonies.. yes.

[I-missRichardTee]

Listen to Steely Dan; jazz chords everywhere.

Hardly hidden 0_0

[Theo Verelst]

Here's a jazz song "specially for the mob" by Bill Haley c.s.:

 

[video:youtube]

 

And here's a very short take of mine

 

bhaley1.mp3 44.1 st 256 kb 3/4 min

 

I used these chords first (more or less the RealBook ones, transposed):

 

D- Bm7b5 | E7 A7 | D- Bm7b5 | G-7 C7

 

Fmaj7 D-7 | G-7 C7 | Fmaj7 | Bb7 A7

 

 

T

[Baldwin Funster]

Stray Cat Strut. Not hidden but very jazzy and still ROCK.

[Musicale]

Subliminal stimuli (/sʌbˈlɪmɨnəl/; literally "below threshold"), contrary to supraliminal stimuli or "above threshold", are any sensory stimuli below an individual's threshold for conscious perception.[1] A recent review of functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) studies shows that subliminal stimuli activate specific regions of the brain despite participants being unaware.[2] Visual stimuli may be quickly flashed before an individual can process them, or flashed and then masked, thereby interrupting the processing. Audio stimuli may be played below audible volumes or masked by other stimuli.

 

This is a conspiracy...

[lightbg]

Here are two versions of "Don't let the green grass fool you". The Wilson Pickett original had some pretty hip changes, but The Spinners version is way over the top. One of my favorites.

 

http://www.whosampled.com/cover/200915/Spinners-Don't-Let-the-Green-Grass-Fool-You-Wilson-Pickett-Don't-Let-the-Green-Grass-Fool-You/

 

 

[ITGITC]

So why is that, instruments not good enough, missing the old speakers/amps the originals were performed on, missing some "shadow tracks" here and there ? Or do we have to look further, and deeper into the music, the instruments, and the production "tricks"?

 

Theo V.

 

One thing that comes to mind whenever I play with a band is:

 

1. Don't overplay.

2. Be true to the genre.

 

OK. That's two things.

 

It can take right much self-discipline to go from playing solo piano to being a contributor-in-the-right-places in a band. I have to remind myself not to step on the toes of the bass player. I also have to focus to find that space where I can add something useful. It may be second nature to many of you who play in this setting all the time.

 

I played at a theme park for a few years during college. This was five shows/day, six days/week. I learned a lot.

 

One of the things I quickly learned was to leave out the jazz chords when playing country music.

 

You may say - "Tom, this is common sense." Well, sure it is. But I believe that we should remind ourselves to be true to the genre. As I wrote some time ago, there was a time I was addicted to Major 7th chords. I'm sure many of you understand. I had to work through that. There was a point where I thought I would need to attend JCA classes (Jazz Chords Anonymous), but I did it. (I still have to get my Steely Dan fix every so often, but I'm OK. Really.)

 

So, in your example above, Theo, the early R&R or R&B music was often made up of simple parts using simple instruments and most of the music had a sharp focus with regard to staying true to the message.

 

Sure, there were jazz chords in some of the Beatles early music. But I would still say this music stayed in the R&R record bin and didn't visit the dark side (jazz) of the store.

 

I always find it interesting how so many drummers praise Ringo. But I have to agree. His style was simplistic compared to some others. And he played it well. And I believe that this is what those tunes required.

 

There was a lot going on in those tunes. Lots of vocal harmonies & great playing by all. I think that it wasn't an accident that Ringo decided to keep his playing simple.

 

Anybody agree or is this just common sense to everybody here?

 

Tom

 

PS It's Thursday. Beer is especially good as we get closer to the weekend, methinks.

 

 

Tom

 

[Baldwin Funster]

On the Sub-subject of jazzing up a song, How about Bobby Bland's version of T-Bone's They Call It Stormy Monday. The cover becomes the standard.

[opdigits]

Anybody agree or is this just common sense to everybody here?

I agree. Ringo intentionally created the right percussive atmosphere.

[Theo Verelst]

Well, I was very drawn to Haley+Comets, and am very aware of objective harmoniszation (the kinds which emphasizes chords, not the artificial choirs) effects, and of course "subbands" with (for me) objectively measurable tonal information with a certain given dimensions (size associations).

 

I think R&R was partially invented by smart country-type players, but I am sure Bill played jazz, and jazz chords, and that I hear major harmonic construction in those famous 50s RR songs.

 

T

[Bobadohshe]

So what are the "jazz" chords in the Fats Domino example? In my view it's straight ahead simplicity and good lyrics on top of a solid groove.

 

That's the point. They're hidden. Ton's of polychords and Maj7#11/8/F chords, hidden from the ear and eyes.

[Delaware Dave]

That's the point. They're hidden. Ton's of polychords and Maj7#11/8/F chords, hidden from the ear and eyes.

If they're hidden from sight and sound how do you know they are there?

[Theo Verelst]

Some of the chords obviously are there. Some are inferred and some are in the production. It seems most people here are new to "harmonizer" ideas, that's where a lot of interest can be found.

 

If I'd play a little with these classics, and I don't mean simple country, I'm talking about the obvious Kings of R&R, I can't use a simple sample piano, unless I keep it simple. When wanting the atmosphere of the kinds of records and recordings, I have the impression a lot of musician skill went into harmonic ideas, and I'd find it strange to write BH&hC of as sounding simple: obviously there's a sound there that you or I cannot simply get from any rompler, but if you think so: I challenge you to exemplify that..

 

T

[I-missRichardTee]

So why is that, instruments not good enough, missing the old speakers/amps the originals were performed on, missing some "shadow tracks" here and there ? Or do we have to look further, and deeper into the music, the instruments, and the production "tricks"?

 

Theo V.

 

One thing that comes to mind whenever I play with a band is:

 

1. Don't overplay.

2. Be true to the genre.

 

OK. That's two things.

 

It can take right much self-discipline to go from playing solo piano to being a contributor-in-the-right-places in a band. I have to remind myself not to step on the toes of the bass player. I also have to focus to find that space where I can add something useful. It may be second nature to many of you who play in this setting all the time.

 

I played at a theme park for a few years during college. This was five shows/day, six days/week. I learned a lot.

 

One of the things I quickly learned was to leave out the jazz chords when playing country music.

Tom

A Tad OT

Many moons ago I did a gig with Wooly Bully dude Sam the Sham ( lasted maybe 3 months, do not recall - cause Mr Sham and I didn't hit it off ) ... being young, talented, a bit of a jazz snob ( no longer, ok ) and naive; I was surprised when Sam corrected me on a chord I was playing.

Now mind you, this is Wooly Bully kind of three chord wonder music. So can anyone guess what he said? I was playing a dominant seventh chord either on the 1 the 4 or the 5 chord key of C implied blues/ either a C7 or F7 or G7 I do not recall.. my guess is I added the seventh to a C chord in key of C so that would be a C7... but Sam said its a TRIAD!! In retrospect, he was on the money, correct.

Years later while study earlier classical harmony.. the huge difference between a simple diatonic triad and adding the seventh to it eg key of C a C major vs a C7. Studying classical harmony and counterpoint a bit, drove this home to me!

[David Loving]

That's the point. They're hidden. Ton's of polychords and Maj7#11/8/F chords, hidden from the ear and eyes.

If they're hidden from sight and sound how do you know they are there?

They are not there - it's all groove. That's the point.