VR-09 Hints and Tips

[Ken Beaumont]

Jameco Electronics

 

What you charge would be up to you. You also would need a schematic, solder tools, dremel tool, static grounding strap etc. And access to an Oscilloscope to analyze the signal at the point you want to tap into before you actually do it.

[Ekewaka]

It would be much easier to put between VR-09 and the amp a good OD or amp simulation guitar pedal.

[brenner13]

It would be much easier to put between VR-09 and the amp a good OD or amp simulation guitar pedal.

 

Agreed. Still, would be fun to make a FrankenCombo.

[brenner13]

Jameco Electronics

 

What you charge would be up to you. You also would need a schematic, solder tools, dremel tool, static grounding strap etc. And access to an Oscilloscope to analyze the signal at the point you want to tap into before you actually do it.

 

Oscilloscope app on the iPad...check.

An old extension cord with tiny alligator clips for grounding...check.

Exacto knife...takes patience and a steady hand...check.

$5 garage sale solder gun find...check.

Now, how to smuggle out some Roland schematics...

[Ken Beaumont]

A little OT: I just recently purchased a Korg wavedrum global and while I await delivery I went to the Korg forums. The first thing I read was various mods, like adding midi and adding an external trigger so you can add a kick drum etc.

[brenner13]

Ooooh, been salivating over WaveDrums for a while. Had no idea they have no MIDI. Are you entertaining a mod?

[Craig MacDonald]

Oscilloscope app on the iPad...check.

An old extension cord with tiny alligator clips for grounding...check.

Exacto knife...takes patience and a steady hand...check.

$5 garage sale solder gun find...check.

Warranty on VR-09.... check

 

Replacement VR-09 $999 (for damage done to VR09 not covered by warranty)

 

Seriously guys, what are you thinking!!?? ;-)

[mikewave]

It would be much easier to put between VR-09 and the amp a good OD or amp simulation guitar pedal.

 

I have thought of running the VR-09 through my guitar effects pedal for OD but I don't know how much of the character of the organ sound would be lost by the fact that the signal going into the pedal would only be mono, not stereo. This is my own lack of knowledge about these things. Any ideas?

[brenner13]

I plan on running through my RT-20 tonight, but the overdrive on that thing is too crunchy too soon, too. Will relay impressions in several hours.

[Ekewaka]

It would be much easier to put between VR-09 and the amp a good OD or amp simulation guitar pedal.

 

I have thought of running the VR-09 through my guitar effects pedal for OD but I don't know how much of the character of the organ sound would be lost by the fact that the signal going into the pedal would only be mono, not stereo. This is my own lack of knowledge about these things. Any ideas?

 

Well, if it sounds good, it is good. So try out.

[Kevmo]

Just buy a vent stereo solved....OD solved. Warranty saved check

[Ken Beaumont]

Ooooh, been salivating over WaveDrums for a while. Had no idea they have no MIDI. Are you entertaining a mod?

No but the external trigger mod looked simple enough. I modded a Carvin nomad tube amp by removing the clipping diodes in the overdrive circuit, it made a drastic improvement in the sound. But I waited until after the warranty expired . It's a common mod.

[brenner13]

Hmmm...had to back off the chorus on the piano setup I did last night, as it was way too much through a stereo amp and speakers. Actually sounded fair through the air with chorus all the way off. Darn AP's are still my biggest gripe. It's weird how different it sounds in the phones...DT 770's.

 

Okay, now about the rotary pedal: The RT-20 by itself is more midrange and loses that low-down girth the VR has when running through its internal rotary. RT's overdrive is smoother when switched to guitar mode verses keyboard mode but emphasizes the mids even more. Still only a tiny bit can be used as it gets real crunchy real fast. Turning the OD off on the RT and bringing in the VR's OD makes the tone get WAY too bright through the RT's rotary. The VR tone knob was no help there.

The pedal only has overall ramp speed, not individual woofer/horn like the VR, and RTs woofer takes a long time to get to speed. Had to adjust the VR woofer accel all the way down to match it. Notched straight up Noon, the RT is a tad too fast but just left of center sounded pretty good. A/B-ing, the RT has more whoosh, but the VR's has better tone and tone control. The RT is mono until you bypass the rotary effect. VR's rotary has a wide stereo effect. They sound wonderful together but that sacrifices definition.

 

Gonna experiment with both for a while...REALLY like having the fast/slow on a foot switch...really sucks that VR registrations won't save pedal assignments.

 

If I had to choose one: by a fairly narrow margine, the VR's internal rotary wins in my book because of the better tone and easier setup/tear down.

 

[rien]

I'm so tempted to pop open my VR to see if there is an adjustment on the overdrive knob and possibly see how hard it might be to swap out with a higher quality potentiometer, but of course that would void the warranty. Got a year parts and labor, and two years parts. Ooooh, but I wanna see inside...

 

i bet it won't do anything.

I would like to be proved wrong, but i guess the effects section is software based, not real hardware effects. That means that you cannot change any effect by just replacing a knob. Also, that would prevent any send/return circuitry.

[brenner13]

Yeah, I know; most likely that's just how the software is setup. But recently picked up a used Fantom X7 from an online auction, that had some undisclosed issues. A couple of the knobs would randomly jump values causing a nice little piano interlude to suddenly become a reversed swirling mess; neat for effect but rather intrusive when all you want to do is play some piano. Also the pitch bend lagged with quick trill like flips. Found some parts online; $50 for a pitch bend assembly and $8 for a couple of potentiometers; four hours of screws and solder, and my X7 is good as new...actually better than new...also undisclosed were a couple of expansion cards that were preinstalled. LUCKY DAY!

But I digress...that was hardware issues...the VR09 is what it is. Still want to see inside, though.

[Ekewaka]

Now, Roland (Boss) has lots of experience with amp simulations for guitars so maybe a future product have those rolled in for better distortion/overdrive support.

[Craig MacDonald]

Now, Roland (Boss) has lots of experience with amp simulations for guitars so maybe a future product have those rolled in for better distortion/overdrive support.

The predecessor VK engine had 3 different amp sims (perhaps this was only the vk8) and I have heard some very positive feedback about that overdrive. It's a surprise that the VR-09 OD is so bad.. That said I think the first problem is the intensity of it and the fact that it seems more like an off/on switch. It kicks in far too noticeably and then by about11:00 its way too intense. We need a subtler and warmer overdrive.

[rien]

Note that if you use an expression pedal, and set it half way, the overdrive kicks in more smoothly. It then becomes usable on a wider range.

 

(A small early spoiler: my own PC version of the infamous editor is on its way... still a lot of work to do though, especially on the user interface. And since i used java, it should be mac compatible out of the box)

[brenner13]

Ed Diaz sells it:

 

 

 

[Kevmo]

1Gig and 2 rehersals lots tweaking & posting later.... I an getting around my transpose issues (Unsaved key w/registrations and No transpose midi TX on my Casio CDP 100 controller). Heres how.

I usually use no more than 6-7 sounds all nite. so I go to Piano and select Grand pianoV, from E pianos Vintage Rhodes strings FS strings,Brass-FS Brass, other- N Flute. I then go saved registrations where I have my treaked/custom versions of these and a few extras Wurli clav steeldrum OB strng SFX etc.

From here I can use front panel transpose for each tune and with 1 push button access a sound in the proper key.

I cant toggle between Regs but can on front panel presets. Roland REALLY needs to fix the fact that leaving a reg. causes current transpose to reset to C.

My CDP TX does tune ( not Transpose) all but the Organ sounds so I am able to use it on Ac & E.PNo and the feel & sound are BIG improvenets over VR KBD.I am getting Many unsolicited complements on my sound so bottom line I'm quite happy with this $850 Flawed Gem. I have not used my Vent with VR organ on gig yet but will for stepenwolf etc for obvious reasons.

[Craig MacDonald]

Kevmo, thanks for posting.. glad to hear that you've found a work around.. I don't personally use transpose at all, but I have in the past when I played with a horn band..

 

Also very happy to hear that you're getting complemented on your sound.. I've been using the VR-09 in place of my Crumar Mojo for the last couple of gigs and it's gone over very well also.. I have used it with my Ventilator.. just to give it that extra bit of realism (especially on the overdrive).. and the guys in my band, who are pretty fussy about organ sounds.. seem to quite like it.. my band has played with me through various iterations from real hammond/147 > to a BX3/147, then Nord C1/C2 into QSC K10's with/without ventilator, along with an SK1 and a Numa, and now my Crumar Mojo.. so they've seen/heard all my various iterations of hammonds and clones.. They seem to quite like the VR-09, it's hasn't quite got the authenticy of the Mojo but it's a nice, and very playable instrument. And great bang for the buck.. if you value drawbar organ!

[simchaleh]

hey everyone. good to see a more direct thread for actual tweaks and tips.

im trying to create some synth tones from scratch with the ipad app, but i can to get an empty patch to start with. everything im working with still has the base sound that i started with in the background. even though i turned off the switches. any ideas? thnks

sb

[HammondDave]

Again it's probably a cost issue relative to the design point of a $999 synth (hate to always keep coming back to this).

 

 

Except a much smaller company can create a convincing overdrive on a $5 IOS ap (Galileo Organ).... And I am not just picking on the VR-09... This is also true in many more expensive clones.

 

It time for these huge manufacturers to wake up... We need to demand a higher level of quality.

[brenner13]

Note that if you use an expression pedal, and set it half way, the overdrive kicks in more smoothly. It then becomes usable on a wider range.

 

What expression pedal do you use? Earlier in the thread there were concerns that the control is a little jumpy. I use an M-Audio EX-P and am pretty satisfied, but would like to see if the Roland EV5 is better and worth it for twice the price.

 

 

[Ken Beaumont]

I have mine hooked up to an EV5 its very jumpy. Forget swells!

It was in my opinion a waste of money. I should have gotten the extended range EV-7 or an adapter and a Yamaha FC-7. I'm pretty satisfied with that on my MOX.

[brenner13]

Cool, thanks for the reply. I tried a Behringer FVC100 and it was pretty much only on/off and jittery inbetween. Good Golly...Roland sure is proud of their EV-7!

[rien]

What expression pedal do you use? Earlier in the thread there were concerns that the control is a little jumpy.

 

i am using a yamaha fc-7 with a custom built adapter. i find it quite jumpy too, but since i never played another expression pedal (except for the one on a crumar 2003, 25 years ago...) i cannot really appreciate how it should feel.

 

anyway, even with a jumpy behavior, i can easily find a mid-range setting.

[AnotherScott]

- EFFECTS ISSUES/ORGAN LAYER currently when layering a secondary instrument with organ, the secondary instrument will go through the leslie effect if it is enabled. AT THIS TIME THERE IS NO SOLUTION, BUT USING SPLIT (RATHER THAN LAYER) DOES NOT EXHIBIT THE SAME PROBLEM

 

-SPLIT MODE LOWER INSTRUMENT EFFECTS when in split mode the lower instrument loses its original effects assignment, and it is now processed along with the upper part effects (and the live effect section). NO SOLUTION OR WORKAROUND IS AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME

Roland does not consider these things to be bugs... it is the intentional design. (Likely, as you talk about elsewhere, a cost-related compromise.) The manual makes this clear:

 

When using Dual: The same effects will apply to both sounds.

When using Split: The effects will be applied only to the upper part (except for reverb). However if youve assigned organ sound to the lower part, the same effects will apply to all parts.

 

So it is working as intended. A change to this operation would be a "feature request" (and, I would guess, likely beyond the current architecture of the machine).

 

 

- ORGAN MODE/MIDI VELOCITY when selecting an organ sound the VR-09 does not transmit midi velocity. CREATING A LAYERED REGISTRATION OF ORGAN PLUS ANY OTHER NON-ORGAN SOUND WILL ENABLE THE TRANSMISSION OF MIDI VELOCITY. TURNING THE VOLUME OF THE SECONDARY SOUND TO ZERO WILL ALLOW YOU HEAR ONLY ORGAN AND BE ABLE TO SEND MIDI VELOCITY TO AN EXTERNAL DEVICE.

This makes perfect sense. The organ has a "shallow trigger" which means there is no velocity data available to transmit at the point of the "NOTE ON" event. In order to trigger the organ and simultaneously transmit velocity, it would need to process two NOTE ON events, one at the shallow level for the organ, and a second velocity-enabled one further down the travel. The obvious way to do this is exactly what you suggest. I don't see a "bug" here to be fixed. I suppose you could have a feature request that MIDI OUT always be deep trigger even when playing organ, but then if you wanted to do something like trigger VB3 from VR-09, you would no longer have the shallow trigger available for playing your external organ source. I guess the feature could be made switchable. Though also it may not be architecturally possible for a single voice to generate two separate NOTE ON events per key strike. Regardless, I don't see this as a bug.

 

Points of agreement: I agree with what you say elsewhere, that the VK-8M shows that Roland can clearly do more in the way of overdrive and amp simulation than they do in the VR-09, and the difference is probably a cost compromise. I also agree with your response to To_B3 that we shouldn't expect any new PCM sounds, there's no reason to believe that the machine is capable of having new samples loaded into it. And I agree with the replies to Brenner about the futility of swapping a pot. In digital devices, the pots don't directly control any aspect of the sound, they are just sending a value (usually between 0 and 127) to a processor.

 

 

[Ekewaka]

In this age of SW code that takes less than a week to port over to a new device, I personally don't think having weak ODs is a cost issue. Rather a market positioning issue avoiding cannibalization of higher cost Roland products.

[AnotherScott]

In this age of SW code that takes less than a week to port over to a new device, I personally don't think having weak ODs is a cost issue.

Porting code is not always easy. Also, some of the underlying hardware that existed in earlier models may be different (or non-existant) in a new, cheaper model, so the same code may not work or may not produce the same results.