Roland V-Combo VR-09

[LX88]

*

I had something to say about the younger market, but I will retract it.

 

 

[garnermike]

$999 sets an all time low price point for a clone

What about the Casio WK series? Drawbars. Single trigger percussion. Not a half bad rotary sim. You have to admit it's as much of a clone as the VR09 is. (I mean raw features, not sound quality)

 

If the new AC and EP sounds from the PX5s work thier way into the Casio work stations I think all of these products (electros, SKs, Vr09s) will have a real run for thier money.

 

For me, the Casio WK series, which I've owned and sold, doesn't offer a patch or tweekable rotary sim that's any good.

[garnermike]

Wow! 39 pages of posts. This product is polarizing.

 

Say what you will re: how the VR-09 is for the "utes" (yoothes) due to its synth and high-tech abilities, the main reason I'm keeping the thing is because of its great organ tones and adjustable rotary sim @ 12 lbs. and @ <$1000 (actually bought it for $938 via zzounds.com). The pianos or synths, as good as they are, weren't that important, nor was percussion, nor were a lot of the other bells and whistles the unit offers.

 

In trying to work around what I felt was a cringingly bad fast rotary sim in my SK1 (MY opinion and MY ear at work here), I explored all the other organs out there. They were all pretty much $1800 - $3000. Even getting a Roland VK8M would have been at least $1300, and would have provided only a module (w/o rotary fast/slow pedal-switching capability, me thinx), and no back-up keyboard.

[Craig MacDonald]

I have to really laugh here. People are arguing about the fine points in a 12 pound keyboard that is not marketed to you guys. It's marketed to the young guys who will be using the looping function and dubstep warbling stuff and making the kinds of sounds that will make all of us here run out the door screaming, No Mas, No Mas!!

 

Yes I know this particular demo video is not about that but other's I've seen are targeted towards that crowd and trust me if this thing is a success it will not be because of a bunch of old farts arguing about the keybed feel or whether you can layer the B3 and a piano or not, it will be about how a 23 year old can loop and screech a dance party with it. The kids don't give a flying crap about what you guys are talking about and they're the overwhelming majority of the market now, not us and Roland knows it.

 

Bob

 

I kind of think that market you are talking about would rather use Ableton Live for this purpose than VR-09. I would use Live myself for that kind of music. Also defeats the whole purpose of the clone engine built into VR-09 plus all the AC, EP and clav sounds. If Roland was aiming for that market they would have added tons of buttons to trigger loops instead.

I tend to agree with Kenekahuna on this point.. I don't really think that the VR-09 is being exclusively marketed toward the 20-somethings.. I think that the youtube demos may have made it appear this way because the focus in a lot of the demos is the looper and the live interface.

 

I think it's a pretty versatile keyboard and I've said this several times.. this VR-09 could do any of the following:

 

- single all-in-one for someone on a budget (12 pounds, broad cross section of sounds)

- second tier keyboard (for organ and/or synth capabilities)

- backup keyboard (this is my case, backup for Kronos or Mojo)

- rehearsal rig (easy to transport, covers most sounds)

- controller for a laptop rig (with backup sounds)

- busking keyboard

 

That's a lot of uses for this thing.. and because it has a looper and built in drums just means that it will have a broader appeal, it doesn't mean that it's marketed exclusively towards 20-somethings.

[Craig MacDonald]

Wow! 39 pages of posts. This product is polarizing.

 

Say what you will re: how the VR-09 is for the "utes" (yoothes) due to its synth and high-tech abilities, the main reason I'm keeping the thing is because of its great organ tones and adjustable rotary sim @ 12 lbs. and @ <$1000 (actually bought it for $938 via zzounds.com). The pianos or synths, as good as they are, weren't that important, nor was percussion, nor were a lot of the other bells and whistles the unit offers.

 

In trying to work around what I felt was a cringingly bad fast rotary sim in my SK1 (MY opinion and MY ear at work here), I explored all the other organs out there. They were all pretty much $1800 - $3000. Even getting a Roland VK8M would have been at least $1300, and would have provided only a module (w/o rotary fast/slow pedal-switching capability, me thinx), and no back-up keyboard.

 

YES it's a polarizing product but I think that the polarizing issues centre around the basic design of the thing.. the price point and all the who/what/where/when/why decisions that went it. Expensive waterfall keyboard vs low end under a grand keyboard, extensive editing capabilities vs simple live interface etc etc. That is what people are polarized about, but the fact is that it is what it is.

 

The fact is that some folks, like myself, are looking at this and saying "WOW look at all they've packed into this thing", and others are saying "oh my God, look at all the corners they've cut". Both things are true it just depends how you look at it. The bottom line is that the product will succeed, or not, based on all they have packed into it vs all of the corners they've cut, and perhaps most importantly... how this keyboard compares to other sub $1000 keyboards that it's competing with!

 

I DON'T think that the majority of the buyers who are considering an under $1000 keyboard will be quite as fussy as this bunch on the KC forum who are crying foul over the fact that it doesn't have a waterfall keyboard.

 

Again it's a pretty versatile product and I think it will appeal to a lot of folks.

[Ken Beaumont]

Without endless debate, I've had mine for a couple weeks now. And I'm very satisfied with mine. I use it as a second tier to my SV1-73.

[BigJPatton]

People are debating this keyboard so much because players want something like this, I want something like this, its a great concept, but Im about to buy something else because they simply missed with a few small things like a better keybed and adding another octave so that playing pianos live is doable, 61 is fine for organ and synths but crap for pianos, so if you want to produce a swiss army knife at least cover the basics, I can live without top notch organs, just give me good enough, but do not skimp on the keys.

[RetroVintageOld]

Dont know if anyone has brought this up (This thread is too large to check) There appears to only be two pedal inputs. So if one is used for piano sustain, and the other for expression, youre out of pedals if you want to switch rotary on and off.

 

This could be a problem for some players when using splits/layers.

 

[LX88]

One of the huge selling points of the Nord Electro was the fact that it combined functional EP's and organ, in a lightweight package.

 

I think the Wurli sound in the Electro was a big reason for its popularity. Another reason I think it was popular was that it didn't try to do too many things.

 

At this point, we should have the technology to have sounds with soul at a fair price. Casio seems to be moving toward this.

 

The average consumer does seem unwilling to pay 2K for a board these days. I guess this is what Roland could come up with for 1K.

[Dana.]

The VR-09 is a niche product. It's for weekend warriors who are primarily playing organ and can't or don't want to pay for an Electro or SK1, and who absolutely have to have a board that does splits and layers. "The kids" and people who primarily play AP, EP, and synth have zero interest in this board. Those sounds and any other non-organ features are "bonus."

 

The only thing this board does exceptionally well is be lightweight. And from what I'm reading, the organ is decent. That's it. Everything else -- the APs, the EPs, the synths, the action, etc. -- ranges from passable to poor. It's essentially a $999 organ with compromise synth keys. So does that have value? Apparently. Is it good value? :idk

[earl the pearl]

Just pulled the trigger. Got my even up trade at GC. Loving most of the VR. The weight is the key tome. Arthritic 60 year old back dragging two 30+ boards to gigs was getting old. For my purposes this is a god send. Organ sounds are very passable. Leslie sim is bettern than average. Pianos sre very passable. Eps a bit weak. Im not asynth player but if I need to learn a passage or two its there. Aux sounds like brass and strings are fine for my purposes. Keybed is a bit weak especially since Im used to weighted but Ill adapt. Actually like it better for organ. Biggest drawback....trying to think Im not playing a toy!! Btw,what exp pedal do you reccomend. I hate the EV. Does the FC7 work or do I need an adaptor? Thanks

[Craig MacDonald]

The VR-09 is a niche product. It's for weekend warriors who are primarily playing organ and can't or don't want to pay for an Electro or SK1, and who absolutely have to have a board that does splits and layers. "The kids" and people who primarily play AP, EP, and synth have zero interest in this board. Those sounds and any other non-organ features are "bonus."

 

The only thing this board does exceptionally well is be lightweight. And from what I'm reading, the organ is decent. That's it. Everything else -- the APs, the EPs, the synths, the action, etc. -- ranges from passable to poor. It's essentially a $999 organ with compromise synth keys. So does that have value? Apparently. Is it good value? :idk

this post used to say "the VR-09 is Roland's answer to the Electro" (we're did this sentence go, I don't see an edit?). I think that comparing the VR-09 to Electros and Sk1 that are at least twice the price, is the fundamental problem and cause for all of this polarized debate. You cannot compare the quality of the keyboard, or the sounds, or the editability of a $1000 instrument to a $2000 instrument.. The VR-09 is a very unique instrument that has no equivalent!

 

That said, its hard not to compare the VR-09 to an Electro or an SK1 because the fact is that the VR-09 can do most of what the SK1and Electro can do for half the price! So there is good reason for someone to consider the trade offs and compromises that are being made in order to save $$. The fact that the VR-09 does some things better than the electro or SK1 (VA synth, iPad editor) is further reason to consider the VR-09. However, expecting the quality of the keyboard on a $1000 keyboard to be as good as that of a $2000 keyboard is just plain silly!

 

Personally, I think the sounds are excellent or a $999 instrument, and the VR-09 is excellent value at this price point.

[Craig MacDonald]

Just pulled the trigger. Got my even up trade at GC. Loving most of the VR. The weight is the key tome. Arthritic 60 year old back dragging two 30+ boards to gigs was getting old. For my purposes this is a god send. Organ sounds are very passable. Leslie sim is bettern than average. Pianos sre very passable. Eps a bit weak. Im not asynth player but if I need to learn a passage or two its there. Aux sounds like brass and strings are fine for my purposes. Keybed is a bit weak especially since Im used to weighted but Ill adapt. Actually like it better for organ. Biggest drawback....trying to think Im not playing a toy!! Btw,what exp pedal do you reccomend. I hate the EV. Does the FC7 work or do I need an adaptor? Thanks

Earl, I feel about the same way you do.. I turned 58 yesterday and my knees and back are shot so this 12 pound drawbar organ is fantastic from my perspective. I use the Roland expression pedals and I don't like them much, so I think I'll pick up the Yamaha, and my understanding is that you need an adapter to use he FC7 with a Roland product.

[richwhite9]

So there is good reason for someone to consider the trade offs and compromises that are being made in order to save $$. The fact that the VR-09 does some things better than the electro or SK1 (VA synth, iPad editor) is further reason to consider the VR-09. However, expecting the quality of the keyboard on a $1000 keyboard to be as good as that of a $2000 keyboard is just plain silly!

 

Personally, I think the sounds are excellent or a $999 instrument, and the VR-09 is excellent value at this price point.

 

That is the thing: The Electro was a Swiss army knife that continues to escalate in price. The E2-61 was available at this price point.

 

That's another question: where does a used Electro 2-61 still beat the pants off a VR-09? EPs and keybed and Clav? What's a better bottom board? Krome, E2-73 lightly used, or a PC5?

 

I've got to think guys running around with a Krome-73 and a VR-09 are sounding pretty good on stage and cover a lot more territory than an E4-SW73 for the same price. Whatever strengths the N E4 has its likely lost on the crowd.

[Dana.]

this post used to say "the VR-09 is Roland's answer to the Electro" (we're did this sentence go, I don't see an edit?).

I don't feel the need to let everyone know I clarified my thoughts.

 

You cannot compare the quality of the keyboard, or the sounds, or the editability of a $1000 instrument to a $2000 instrument.

Nonsense. They're both made to do essentially the same thing. It's a valid comparison, regardless of price.

 

However, expecting the quality of the keyboard on a $1000 keyboard to be as good as that of a $2000 keyboard is just plain silly!.

It has less to do with "quality" and everything to do with playability.

 

Personally, I think the sounds are excellent or a $999 instrument, and the VR-09 is excellent value at this price point.

You don't say...

[HammondDave]

 

That said, its hard not to compare the VR-09 to an Electro or an SK1 because the fact is that the VR-09 can do most of what the SK1and Electro can do for half the price! .

.

 

Except sound like a Hammond Organ.. I'm sorry Craig, but we just disagree. I played it at NAMM and heard countless demos on YouTube. It sounds like a VK7 with a better Leslie simulator. The basic tone is the same and the overdrive is a joke.

 

There is no way it sounds as good to me as an Electro or SK1. And that keyboard would be a non-starter for me.... It is truly an apples to oranges comparison. Just look at the build quality for gods sake! Again, just my opinion.

 

So again you say "for $1000" or "for half the price"... Really.... Are we now buying the tools that we use to express our art the same way we buy commodities?

 

Do you buy a shack instead of a house because its a "better value"? They both offer shelter...

[Josh Paxton]

For the record, here's the email I sent to Roland:

 

I was wondering if there's an upcoming OS update that addresses the glitch of held notes retriggering when a new patch is selected?

 

Also, my biggest wish for any future updates: Please add the ability to save pedal assignments with each registration. If I could have, say, a piano/organ split where the damper affected only the piano and the expression affected only the organ, and then switch instantly to a synth layer where both pedals affected both parts... that small addition would make a huge difference in the VR's real-time usefulness.

 

And a far less urgent pipe dream: any chance of adding a "key range" parameter to each partial in the editor, thus opening up a sneaky way to create more-than-two-way splits?

 

And their reply:

 

We have sent your requests to Roland Japan and are hopeful that there will be a future update to address some of the issues that you have mentioned. As soon as an update is available will will post it to www.rolandus.com.

 

Here's hopin'.

[Ekewaka]

People are debating this keyboard so much because players want something like this, I want something like this, its a great concept, but Im about to buy something else because they simply missed with a few small things like a better keybed and adding another octave so that playing pianos live is doable, 61 is fine for organ and synths but crap for pianos, so if you want to produce a swiss army knife at least cover the basics, I can live without top notch organs, just give me good enough, but do not skimp on the keys.

 

Yes, I wanted something like this and I'm a cheap skate so the price was good, the sounds were decent, too. But I could just not justify purchasing a keyboard with a price tag of $999 with a key bed that felt like a $99 keyboard.

 

...plus it didn't help that I've been using Mainstage/B3 for a while now and got used to its excellent sounds for a similar price point.

[Dr88s]

Really informative post. Thanks to all involved thus far.

 

As a prospective buyer, I have two questions for those who already own this board. It seems like a good fit for my abilities, needs, and budget. Before buying, there are two things I would like to know:

 

1. Reading the manual, it seems that if you hook up a MIDI controller keyboard to the VR-09's MIDI in, then the entire 61 keys of the VR-09 play the upper split sound and the entire MIDI controller keys the lower sound. Does this mean that if I connect an 88 key controller, set up an upper organ / lower piano split, and play, say, a G4 on my controller that it will trigger the piano sound but not the organ, and, say, a C2 on the VR-09 will trigger organ but not piano? If so, excellent for my needs.

 

2. Unfortunately I don't know of anywhere local that has this in stock yet, so my opinion of the board's sound is based on Youtube demos, which come straight from Roland. One thing that concerns me is all the talk of the EPs being 'weak'. This is, of course, very subjective, as everyone has different tastes and definitions of 'weak' 'killer' 'laughable', etc. Would it be possible for anyone who has this to play a quick demo on Wurly and Rhodes sounds (especially the former!) to youtube or to some other site so that prospective buyers without access to one can judge the quality? It would be very much appreciated if someone could take a few minutes to do this.

 

 

[LX88]

Hammonddave...

 

Did they let you play the VR 09 at NAMM? They wouldn't let me play it. As far as I could tell they were just doing demos with it. They told me it wasn't finished or something like that.

 

It's possible that what was a NAMM isn't quite what is out now. I thought the organ sounded pretty good except for the percussion thing I mentioned. But Hammond Suzuki owners ( or past owners) generally don't like Rolands and vice versa.

 

Personally I prefer the leslie sim on this ( from what limited time I spent) to what I recall hearing from the SK1. Ditto for the chorus vibrato. Give me some basic drawbar tones with those two things and I can usually get what I want out of a clone ( as I do with a Numa).

 

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Dr88s

 

I think that the answer to your first question is yes, but I haven't actually tried it myself.. I have an 88 note weighted action controller and will try to set it up later today or tomorrow to see how this works. That said, there are a few bugs/quirks with the VR-09 right now, and one of them seems to be that when you layer organ with any other instrument, the other instrument ends up going through the leslie. This doesn't occur on a split, just on a layer, but I believe what you are trying to accomplish is actually a layer rather than a split.

 

Question 2. There is no doubt that the EP's are the weakpoint of the instrument.. They seem to be very short loops, and they lack a bit of character, and this becomes obvious very quickly when you hold or sustain a note/chord. That said you can hide this using effects and a slight amount of tremolo, chorus or phaser which makes the problem much less noticable, to the point were it wouldn't be noticable in a band situation. You do have a lot of control over the EP sounds by using the live effects like the tone control and overdrive, as well as ADSR, cutoff, resonance controls.. so you can make the EP's honk or grind etc. but the bottom line is that you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, when you start with so so samples you're limited as far as how good they can be.

 

PM me with your email and I'll see if I can flip you some MP3's of the EP sounds for reference.

[Josh Paxton]

Another "quirk" (read: limitation) that I haven't seen mentioned: on all the time-based effects -- phaser, tremolo, delay, etc. -- turning the knob increases both the rate and the amount. So if you want to, say, keep the tremolo at the same speed but just add more of it, too bad. No changing it with menu diving either. While I wasn't expecting vastly editable effects, I had guessed that there was at least a way to pick between a couple different parameters per knob. Alas, I was wrong.

[iluvchiclets]

I don't know if all the FX parameters are listed or not, but the owner's manual can be downloaded here:

 

http://www.roland.com/support/article/?q=manuals&p=VR-09

 

This may help to answer any reader's questions.

[Craig MacDonald]

Hammonddave...

 

Did they let you play the VR 09 at NAMM? They wouldn't let me play it. As far as I could tell they were just doing demos with it. They told me it wasn't finished or something like that.

 

It's possible that what was a NAMM isn't quite what is out now. I thought the organ sounded pretty good except for the percussion thing I mentioned. But Hammond Suzuki owners ( or past owners) generally don't like Rolands and vice versa.

 

Personally I prefer the leslie sim on this ( from what limited time I spent) to what I recall hearing from the SK1. Ditto for the chorus vibrato. Give me some basic drawbar tones with those two things and I can usually get what I want out of a clone ( as I do with a Numa).

 

 

 

LX88, like Dave I have always disliked the VK engine.. to me it was always the least authentic Hammond clone out there.. it always sounded "rinky dinky" and I don't know of any other way to describe it. I'm not sure how close to complete the early production model was that Dave tried at NAMM but I can tell you that the default organ sound that comes with the VR-09 isn't great (it sounds like a typical rinky dinky VK organ) but it's not until you get in and tweak it a bit that it starts to sound good. Dave knows this full well as he's had to deeply tweak his Korg CX3 and his Hammond XK3 to get it sounding the way he liked!

 

It was the same thing with my Kronos, the CX3 programs sounded like shit, but with a bit of tweaking (and a ventilator) I was able to get a great sounding organ. The VR engine is a little better than it's predicessors, it has a far superior leslie sim, however the default organ is crap and it takes a while to understand the new "tone control" and figure out how to use it in conjunction to the upper/lower gain and other editable parameters to get it sounding good.

 

Right now I have my VR-09 sounding pretty good (and I'm pretty fussy about my organ sound). Is it as good as my Mojo, nope.. but it's suprisingly ballsy, it's no longer immediately identifiable as a VK engine, and it's quite fun and inspiring to play... and that's what really counts.

 

 

 

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Another "quirk" (read: limitation) that I haven't seen mentioned: on all the time-based effects -- phaser, tremolo, delay, etc. -- turning the knob increases both the rate and the amount. So if you want to, say, keep the tremolo at the same speed but just add more of it, too bad. No changing it with menu diving either. While I wasn't expecting vastly editable effects, I had guessed that there was at least a way to pick between a couple different parameters per knob. Alas, I was wrong.

Yes this is true FKS.. the effects, while pretty extensive, are fixed and not as editable as you might expect, and for each sound Roland has decided what 5 of the 6 knobs do (the 6th being the MFX which can be changed), and so is the order of effects which cannot be changed either.

 

For the sophisticated user this is frustrating, but for the novice keyboard player I expect it's great to have all these effects pre-configured... dial some knobs and access cool effects.

[Dana.]

Another "quirk" (read: limitation) that I haven't seen mentioned: on all the time-based effects -- phaser, tremolo, delay, etc. -- turning the knob increases both the rate and the amount. So if you want to, say, keep the tremolo at the same speed but just add more of it, too bad. No changing it with menu diving either. While I wasn't expecting vastly editable effects, I had guessed that there was at least a way to pick between a couple different parameters per knob. Alas, I was wrong.

Hey, something the Electro 2 does better!

[Ekewaka]

Another "quirk" (read: limitation) that I haven't seen mentioned: on all the time-based effects -- phaser, tremolo, delay, etc. -- turning the knob increases both the rate and the amount. So if you want to, say, keep the tremolo at the same speed but just add more of it, too bad. No changing it with menu diving either. While I wasn't expecting vastly editable effects, I had guessed that there was at least a way to pick between a couple different parameters per knob. Alas, I was wrong.

 

Also, having ring modulator for for the MFX knob was daring, indeed. Even having a ring modulator as an effect was wacko.

[Ekewaka]

Delay time are also something very personal, does it mean those can't be changed for the FX knobs even with menu diving?

[voxpops]

I changed my mind and bought one. I'm not sure if I've made a stupid decision or not - time will tell - but I have 30 days to evaluate it.

 

I had the opportunity to check it out against the NE4, and my take is this: the Electro is gourmet cuisine; the VR-09 is a ready-meal. You opt for one when you want an exquisite dining experience, and the other when you need something quick and convenient. Basically, the NE4 blows the VR out of the water in terms of Leslie, overdrive, CV, keyclick, percussion and keybed. That red thing just sounds and feels awesome. And when it comes to APs/EPs, the VR is like Shroeder's piano. Even the Nord's sound library is in another ballpark. Basically, the Electro is worth over twice the price - easily. I'd even go so far as to say that, organ aside, the Krome is a far better proposition in terms of sound quality (and I should know, I owned both the 73 and 88 for a while).

 

BUT (there had to be one), unless you are prepared to shell out for a Kurzweil, Kronos or Nord Stage 2, there is no other board that combines a usable drawbar organ with an editable and controllable synth, and certainly not at that weight and footprint. I excluded the XW-P1 because, to me, the organ was pretty much unusable. The VR's organ is usable, but I would hesitate to describe it as a clonewheel. In fact, I think it's best not to even think of it as such, because then you get into the whole Hammond/Nord comparison game. There is no comparison - end of story. Now what CAN the VR do? The answer is that it can do a little bit of everything at a compromised quality. I have to say that the Roland RD-64 draws on some of the same base material as the VR-09, but manages to sound noticeably better. Even the RD's organ has more presence despite the underlying tonal quality being identical.

 

I don't think this is the kind of board that will bring a big grin to your face when you play it. In fact, the opposite may be true as you wrestle with the ridiculous bugs that Roland needs to fix, but probably won't. However, it has a superbly well thought-out interface, can switch instantly from a biting lead to a gospel organ (if that floats your boat), and is kind to damaged backs.

 

For a second-tier board that allows me to dip into synth territory occasionally, and give me passable organ when I don't want to MIDI-up the Numa and Plugiator, it should be fine. I would not select it as a main board or when needing to focus on any one genre of instrument. My suggestion would be to go into this one with eyes wide open. This board is worth what is being asked for it, IMO, but is NOT a substitute for any of the pro boards. Also, make sure you can live with the bugs, in case no fixes are forthcoming.

 

If this sounds overly negative from a new owner, that's not my intention - I just wanted to be realistic. Most of us here have other boards that are of a much higher sonic standard, and so have choices at our disposal. Someone looking for their first board needs to be well aware of what they are getting for their money, especially if ordering online.

[mobi]

Ok, now the $64.000 question,

 

Anyone hooked a ventilator to this thing?