Roland V-Combo VR-09

[Josh Paxton]

They kindly sent me the midi spec sheet, which is not in the manuals and which they have only just received from Japan, so if you have any specific midi data questions feel free to ask.

 

Followup to my previous pedal question: Is it possible to control the rotary speed via MIDI (which would hopefully let you use something like a MIDI Solutions footswitch box)?

[Craig MacDonald]

FKS,

 

Sorry my mistake.. I was trying to get a quick answer for you and I didn't realize that the L/R foot switch reference were related to PK pedals.. sorry

Craig

[LX88]

I still haven't heard a demo clip of the chorus vibrato on the VR 09. I am hoping that Roland had the sense to use the "Vintage 1" chorus vibrato from the VK8m which incidently was featured as an update of some of the later VK7's as well.

 

I was always OK with both the VK7 and VK8/ VK8m sound engines. It seemed I always had to back off the EQ in the upper register.Personally I do not see the VK as being a compromise.

 

I miss my VK8m module ( stolen on loan to another local player who hasn't bothered to replace it...was trying to help him out ... ha!). I am hoping that the VR 09 resurrects some of the better aspects of this unit.

 

I have been equally pleased with the pianos and electric pianos of the Roland RD 300 GX and also am hoping that Roland had the sense to retain the better aspects of this as well. For my money it has one of the best combinations of acoustic and electric pianos out there.

 

There were a more than a few fans of the FP-4 on this list which featured the " Superior Grand" acoustic sample which still holds up well to most of what is out there for me.

 

So in theory Roland is offering a lightweight keyboard at a sound module price. I think it could be very useful. If you need extra sounds Roland has a history of coming up with the goods as far as I am concerned.

 

On sale at Musician's Friend this board will probably be

available in the 850 dollar range. I just wish the keybed was a bit better......

[Josh Paxton]

FKS,

 

Sorry my mistake.. I was trying to get a quick answer for you and I didn't realize that the L/R foot switch reference were related to PK pedals.. sorry

Craig

 

No problem, thanks for looking!

[Craig MacDonald]

I hope that's the case, since that would at least allow one pedal to perform double-duty, if not allow for two. What I hope even more is that someone will find a way to hack together a simple footswitch with an 8-pin connector, and get it to send a message that can fool the VR into thinking it's a PK board. I have to wonder how many people Roland thinks are going to use a $900 or $1700 pedal board with a $999 synth?

 

FKS, I'm with you, I doubt that many people would purchase a set of new PK pedals for use with this VR-09, but some may already have them for use with other Products.. I have a set of PK-5's that I purchased a couple years ago for use with my C1/C2/Mojo. Unfortunately they don't have the PK Jack so I can't take advantage of some of these functions.

[Craig MacDonald]

I still haven't heard a demo clip of the chorus vibrato on the VR 09. I am hoping that Roland had the sense to use the "Vintage 1" chorus vibrato from the VK8m which incidently was featured as an update of some of the later VK7's as well.

 

I was always OK with both the VK7 and VK8/ VK8m sound engines. It seemed I always had to back off the EQ in the upper register.Personally I do not see the VK as being a compromise.

 

LX88, in one of the clips I've seen, the guy does flip through the various CV settings although quickly.. I thought it was this one?

 

I've never been a fan of the VK engine, but maybe it's as simple as backing of the EQ in the upper register.. I look forward to trying the VK to see what I can do with it. Regarding the Overdrive.. the VR-09 doesn't seem to have a control for different types of overdrive (I have the iPad editor loaded and all it has is overdrive amount).. However, I expect that the two different types of organs (Jazz/Rock) likely have the different types of OD... jazz having a more subtle type and rock having the more dramatic Deep Purple type of OD. Just an assumption of course.. probably won't know until we get our hands on one (I wish I'd asked the rep this question when he demo'd it!!)

[Bosendorphen]

It's true that old-style wood panels and real metal is more sturdy. However modern plastics are very durable and it's a compromise between weight/cost.

Also, reliability is not necessarily reflected in how solid something feels. A MemoryMoog is built like a tank, but is not exactly the most reliable keyboard ever made. Meanwhile, plenty of plastic chassis boards seem to work forever.

I hear you.... My lightweight mostly plastic PX330 takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

 

I've had other far more expensive and heavier boards (e.g. one made by a company that begins with "Y") that were nothing but problems in terms of reliability.

 

Yeah... 9 years ago I got that Studiologic TMK-88 controller for playing strictly piano sounds (MIDIed to a QS synth at the time). Played it hard for years and it's been fine. Still use it on occasion for gigs where there's a long haul between cars and the stage. And I actually like the action. It's like a light piano; solid and has this subtle bounce-back and is very responsive. It's my Rubbermaid keyboard!

 

Paring the VR-09 with the TMK-88 would be real lightweight pairing - 25 lbs. for both. A tempting thought but I'll probably stick with what I've got for this year's gigs as I'm planning on leaving the gigging scene for a while.

[AnotherScott]

And then there's the action - the VK-8's waterfall keys are very very fun to play. I wish I had a 76-key controller with a keybed that nice.

You could consider replacing your VK8 with a VR-700.

[AnotherScott]

rep trying to position VR-09 as an SV-1 killer??

Nah. Unweighted action vs. weighted action, they don't really compete for the same buyer. Organ-centric vs. piano-centric.

 

my take on the VR-09 after the demo is that it fills a niche that no other board currently inhabits: i.e. a combination of totally usable sounds across organ, piano and synth coupled with a lightweight chassis and a modest price. Sure, the Electro and Stage 2 have better organ and rotary, plus interchangeable pianos etc., but the Electro lacks a usable synth, and the Stage is way out of the ballpark when it comes to cost. The XW-P1 has an equally good mono synth (maybe better), but its organ and piano sounds fall way short of the VR, in my opinion. Kurzweil products are heavier (read sturdier), and are higher priced, and the competing Yamahas lack drawbars and the user-friendly interface of the VR.

I think the most directly competitive board, in terms of functionality, is the Hammond SK1. If it's a potential "killer" for anything, that's the logical target.

 

. I hope the PX-5S also lives up to expectations: I would love a two-tier combination that together weighs less than one of my current bottom boards.

 

And they can both be run on batteries! Someone just needs to create a HIwatt that runs on D Cells!

It's not a hiwatt, but the two boards with a Roland BA-330 amp could be completely self-powered!

 

I have heard some great Hammond players perform on old VK7s and CX3's. Their performances where great, but the organ sound was severely lacking. I wondered why artists of their stature would not insist on better instruments.

Some of this is subjective. In the recent clone face-off thread, lots of people liked the CX3 better than the Nord and Hammond alternatives. And I've heard some good results from the VK-8M as well. I remember one band I went to see where I was impressed with the organ sound, and I went up to the stage after the gig to check out the gear, and it was a VK-8M.

 

The VK8m I had featured really good overdrive, but there was also one amp model like they use here which was supposed to mimic a Marshall stack ala Jon Lord, I presume.

Regarding the Overdrive.. the VR-09 doesn't seem to have a control for different types of overdrive (I have the iPad editor loaded and all it has is overdrive amount)

One of the nice features of the VK-8M was all the different amp modeling, which also gave you a wide variety of different overdrive sounds. The VK-8M actually had quite a lot of adjustability. It sounds like they didn't quite bring all that to the VR-09.

 

I think that they said that it splits upper and lower... Through the iPad, I think.

You don't need the iPad to do splits.

 

I have to wonder how many people Roland thinks are going to use a $900 or $1700 pedal board with a $999 synth?

Apparently more than they think will use a $500 Ventilator with it. ;-) Though really, if someone is looking for an organ+pedalboard rig, a VR-09 with one of their pedal boards is still about the lightest and cheapest way to do it.

 

Is it possible to control the rotary speed via MIDI (which would hopefully let you use something like a MIDI Solutions footswitch box)?

I would say that would have to work. If there was no MIDI command for rotary speed, you wouldn't be able to include those speed changes in a DAW sequence. (And all previous models have supported rotary speed changing over MIDI, too.)

 

Simply as a lightweight and low-cost clonewheel, a VR-09 plus a Ventilator would probably be pretty killer, if the action is acceptable enough. It would still be $500 less than an SK1, and it has a whole lot of other nice functionality. Though as mentioned earlier, the inability to send different sounds out of different outputs means you can't use the Vent simultaneously with some other split/layered sound. Still, you could fall back on the internal rotary sim for those patches if necessary.

 

[Craig MacDonald]

I still haven't heard a demo clip of the chorus vibrato on the VR 09. I am hoping that Roland had the sense to use the "Vintage 1" chorus vibrato from the VK8m which incidently was featured as an update of some of the later VK7's as well.

 

LX88

 

This is a video that demonstrates the tweakability of the VR-09.. it does have an OK organ demo starting at 7:40 and the Chorus/Vibrato is introduced at the 8:54 mark. It seems pretty tweakable to me and I'm hoping I can get a sound I can enjoy playing.

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Simply as a lightweight and low-cost clonewheel, a VR-09 plus a Ventilator would probably be pretty killer, if the action is acceptable enough. It would still be $500 less than an SK1, and it has a whole lot of other nice functionality. Though as mentioned earlier, the inability to send different sounds out of different outputs means you can't use the Vent simultaneously with some other split/layered sound. Still, you could fall back on the internal rotary sim for those patches if necessary.

 

AnotherScott,

 

Good summary of some of the questions/issues, I tend to agree with you that it's a rather unique beast, and if you were to compare it to anything it would be the SK1. It will be interesting to hear it through a Vent (which will be one of the first things I do of course!!), The VK organ plus ventilator is a pretty good combination, based on my experience and other feedback I've heard (some people really love the VK engine). I think the SK is a great sounding organ and the VK Engine is OK (some would argue better than that).. but the Extra voices on the VR-09 are killer, with a full GM2 sound set AND a complete Jupiter style Virtual Analog synth.. (at least killer at the $999 price point), while the SK's EVs are limited and very medeocre at almost twice that price. The ability of the VR to be able to split/layer two non organ sounds also makes it much more versatile than the SK. However, the SK does have the ability to separate the organ and EV's for use with an external leslie or leslie sim, so advantage SK for this feature.

 

I think that anyone who's REALLY fussy about their drawbar organ (including sound and feel) and isn't particularly concerned about EV's will no doubt choose an SK. However, anyone who just wants a good drawbar organ, and wants GREAT extra voices, on a tighter budget, will probably choose the less expensive VR. From a reliability perspective the VR-09 seems to be less "heavy duty" than the SK, but despite seemingly being better built, the SK's had a lot of early life problems, and at this point the reliability of the VR-09 has yet to be determined. It may or may not have some build quality issues of it's own, given it's lightweight construction. Only time will tell on this.

[AnotherScott]

The ability of the VR to be able to split/layer two non organ sounds also makes it much more versatile than the SK. However, the SK does have the ability to separate the organ and EV's for use with an external leslie or leslie sim, so advantage SK for this feature.

I think the SK has two more logistical advantages... the ability to use the sustain pedal as sustain for piano but rotary toggle for organ (though as alluded to above, that should be able to be addressed via a MIDI pedal controller), and the ability to function as a three zone MIDI controller (i.e. send independent MIDI Program Change commands over three channels, with whatever key assignments you want). With an external module (or iPad), that is a way around the limitation of the SK1's internal splits requiring that one of its sounds be an organ. At least that is my understanding, I haven't had the opportunity to play with an SK1 yet.

[HammondDave]

Again, I played the VK at NAMM and found the incredibly cheap feeling keyboard unpleasant to play (to say the least).

 

Craig... Did the Roland rep let you play it? And what did you think?

[Craig MacDonald]

I think the SK has two more logistical advantages... the ability to use the sustain pedal as sustain for piano but rotary toggle for organ (though as alluded to above, that should be able to be addressed via a MIDI pedal controller), and the ability to function as a three zone MIDI controller (i.e. send independent MIDI Program Change commands over three channels, with whatever key assignments you want). With an external module (or iPad), that is a way around the limitation of the SK1's internal splits requiring that one of its sounds be an organ. At least that is my understanding, I haven't had the opportunity to play with an SK1 yet.

 

AnotherScott, Perhaps I'm not understanding your issue with the sustain pedal, but I think that it can be used for either sustain or rotary, and I think that you can save the assignment in a registration so I'm not sure what your issue is. The only problem I see with this is when you have an organ, piano split.. how do you want the damper pedal to respond (I expect that like the effects, it works however it's set on the upper split).

 

Of course, an external module will fix the SK's limited split/layer capabilities but as a standalone do-everything keyboard the SK's limitation (that one part must be organ) is a very significant disadvantage. IF you want to play a synth lead over an electric piano, you simply can't do that on the SK, but you can on the VR... AND you can do it using the built in virtual analog Jupiter synth over Roland's best sampled EP's!

[Craig MacDonald]

Again, I played the VK at NAMM and found the incredibly cheap feeling keyboard unpleasant to play (to say the least).

 

Craig... Did the Roland rep let you play it? And what did you think?

 

Dave, I did play it for about 5 minutes.. and at the time I was honestly more interested in the sound of the organ than the playability of the keyboard. It certainly wasn't the best keyboard I've ever played but it certainly didn't strike me as "unplayable" and I don't think I'll have a problem getting used to it.. Perhaps I'm just less fussy about this than some others may be.

[AnotherScott]

AnotherScott, Perhaps I'm not understanding your issue with the sustain pedal, but I think that it can be used for either sustain or rotary, and I think that you can save the assignment in a registration so I'm not sure what your issue is.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the assignment of the pedal as sustain or rotary is global, and cannot be altered on a registration-by-registration basis. So if you ever want to use the pedal for sustain, you can never use it for rotary toggle (and vice versa). But the addition of a second pedal via MIDI is a viable workaround... albeit not an inexpensive one for a keyboard that is only $1k to begin with. I might prefer to put the cost of the MIDI Solutions box (and another pedal) toward a Vent, which also provides a foot pedal rotary control, but has its own logistical limitations here (along with some obvious benefits).

[To B3]

What about those EP's and Clavs omn the VR-09, where are they from really? The older and simpler samples from the Juno Di/Gi line or from the NX/GX line? Any level of detail on the samples (keyoff, etc) or just straight samples?

[Craig MacDonald]

The Roland Rep told me that the pianos were Roland's best samples from the GX keyboards... They sound good!

[Craig MacDonald]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the assignment of the pedal as sustain or rotary is global, and cannot be altered on a registration-by-registration basis. So if you ever want to use the pedal for sustain, you can never use it for rotary toggle (and vice versa). But the addition of a second pedal via MIDI is a viable workaround... albeit not an inexpensive one for a keyboard that is only $1k to begin with. I might prefer to put the cost of the MIDI Solutions box (and another pedal) toward a Vent, which also provides a foot pedal rotary control, but has its own logistical limitations here (along with some obvious benefits).

 

I think you are correct on this... when I first glanced at the stored settings I saw Damper Part and assumed this was settings for the damper pedal setting but now that I look closer it's which "part" (meaning upper/lower/all keyboard part) the damper will be assigned to.. So once again probably a mistake on my part because I just took quick a the docs and didn't really digest it.. sorry again.. However, for me I won't be using the damper pedal to control the Leslie speed, I'll use the joystick or perhaps the D-Beam. That will work fine for me and the damper will simply be for pianos and EP's.

[Ekewaka]

I think you are correct on this... when I first glanced at the stored settings I saw Damper Part and assumed this was settings for the damper pedal setting but now that I look closer it's which "part" (meaning upper/lower/all keyboard part) the damper will be assigned to.. So once again probably a mistake on my part because I just took quick a the docs and didn't really digest it.. sorry again.. However, for me I won't be using the damper pedal to control the Leslie speed, I'll use the joystick or perhaps the D-Beam. That will work fine for me and the damper will simply be for pianos and EP's.

 

Yes, using the joystick for controlling Leslie is fine for me, no need to map everything to a pedal.

 

As for the eternal 'keyboard sucks' issue, I don't know until I've tried one so I will not comment. Then again I'm used to all kinds of keyboards so for me a lesser kind of keyboard is absolutely not a deal breaker. If it sounds good, that's more important for me.

[AnotherScott]

The reason I always want rotary toggle assigned to a footswitch is that I often have to play LH bass and can't easily spare the hand to use a joystick or whatever. But this is an example where a Vent can't solve the problem either since I don't want to put the bass guitar sound through a "leslie" (and the Roland can't send the two sounds out separate outputs).

 

Of course, doing a LH bass split on 61 keys is less than ideal to begin with, but I have done it many times.

[Jazzmammal]

It certainly wasn't the best keyboard I've ever played but it certainly didn't strike me as "unplayable" and I don't think I'll have a problem getting used to it.. Perhaps I'm just less fussy about this than some others may be.

 

Exactly Craig and the reason is you're a pro as am I. We may have preferences and we may make comments about the action later but of course it's playable and would get me through a gig.

 

Two guys come to mind, Jeff Lorber and Russell Ferrante. I've seen the two of them both in vids and in person and they have el cheapo midi controllers sitting on their pianos for synth leads and pads and they managed to play these "unplayable" plastic spongy controllers just fine. The one I saw Lorber with was even a mini key one. We all know how crappy those are but it didn't seem to bother him too much. A pro will adapt. That's what Alfredson referred to in another thread talking about different midi pedals he was using, he commented that yes the placement and angles were different from what he was used to but he managed to figure it out. That's what pros do.

 

A Juno D or this new VR-09 is still lightyears better than a 5 year old cheap controller.

 

Bob

[To B3]

The Roland Rep told me that the pianos were Roland's best samples from the GX keyboards... They sound good!

 

Good to hear,... But, are they only the same base samples? What about those extra things that add realism to the more upscale samples, do we find that on the VR-09 EPs/Clavs, like those little noises and imperfections coomn to the Korg SV1 or Kurzweil PC/Sp lines? Iknow, iknow, 999 bucks instrument... but it's 2013, and we are talking about a performance keyboard, people

[Craig MacDonald]

It certainly wasn't the best keyboard I've ever played but it certainly didn't strike me as "unplayable" and I don't think I'll have a problem getting used to it.. Perhaps I'm just less fussy about this than some others may be.

 

Exactly Craig and the reason is you're a pro as am I. We may have preferences and we may make comments about the action later but of course it's playable and would get me through a gig.

 

Bob

 

Bob, thanks.. this is exactly how I feel.. I've played a lot of different keyboards over the years and you just adjust.. After almost 40 years of playing in bands, I certainly know what I like and what I don't like but I'll play on almost anything.. and I recognize that I'll make some compromises for a 12 pound $999 keyboard.. (and I'll be happy doing so!)

 

 

[AnotherScott]

There is still a difference between being able to play on a substandard keyboard and being able to enjoy playing on a substandard keyboard. But keyboard choices aren't binary, there's a continuum, and you strike a balance between the playability, features, price, sound, weight...

[Craig MacDonald]

There is still a difference between being able to play on a substandard keyboard and being able to enjoy playing on a substandard keyboard. But keyboard choices aren't binary, there's a continuum, and you strike a balance between the playability, features, price, sound, weight...

+1

[Josh Paxton]

There is still a difference between being able to play on a substandard keyboard and being able to enjoy playing on a substandard keyboard. But keyboard choices aren't binary, there's a continuum, and you strike a balance between the playability, features, price, sound, weight...

 

 

Indeed. A little while ago I posted on another thread that I had gotten a 61-key Korg Krome rather than wait for the VR. Well, I took it back two days later, primarily because the keybed just felt too cheap and plasticky. I thought I could adapt since I'd mostly be playing simple parts on it anyway, but spending a couple hours alone with it changed my mind. Every time I did a smear it felt like I was gonna snap a key right off. For the brief moment I got the play the VR at NAMM, the keys felt not great, but not that bad (whereas my immediate visceral reaction to the Krome keybed was "Oh my god, what the hell were they thinking?"). So here's hoping my initial reaction of "not great, but playable" holds up.

[Craig MacDonald]

FKS,

 

The VR-09 keyboard didn't jump out at me as awful.. so here's hoping that when I receive mine, I still feel the same way, and maybe it even grows on me a bit.. ;-)

 

I fully understand how a keyboard can be uninspiring to play, but for me the idea of getting the job done with a 12 pound keyboard and an X-Stand is, in itself, quite inspiring...

[HSS]

FKS,

I fully understand how a keyboard can be uninspiring to play, but for me the idea of getting the job done with a 12 pound keyboard and an X-Stand is, in itself, quite inspiring...

Especially for those of us blue collar giggers who have a worn out 50 something back, a bad knee, lack roadies to haul equipment, and have to often play in cramped quarters.

[Craig MacDonald]

FKS,

I fully understand how a keyboard can be uninspiring to play, but for me the idea of getting the job done with a 12 pound keyboard and an X-Stand is, in itself, quite inspiring...

Especially for those of us blue collar giggers who have a worn out 50 something back, a bad knee, lack roadies to haul equipment, and have to often play in cramped quarters.

 

+1000 and I more than qualify