Is there such a thing as a "wrong note" in jazz any longer?

[I-missRichardTee]

I don't know Meisenhower if this constitutes diatribe, but

I have heard that our collective eyesight in terms of color spectrum or interpretation has chnaged over large span of time- say two thousand years ago

I heard our sense of color is different

I am referring to evolution of the human race

This might apply to "outside playing" too?

I hear Parker as inside, but you know for sure that his contempories did not unanimously feel this way, right? Interesting yes?

Also there's this

I don't know enough about outside playing to be sure

but say Herbie H I seldom sense him as actually outside per se. Somehow, I hear that what he is playing is correct, and not outside even if it might technically be so. What say you?

[JeffLearman]

According to Miles, the only wrong notes are the ones you think of. ;-)

[I-missRichardTee]

According to Miles, the only wrong notes are the ones you think of. ;-)

 

And might you lend a hand ( or ear ) on what the inscrutable Prince meant ?

[JeffLearman]

He said, "Think of a note. Then don't play it!"

 

The interpretation is up to you.

 

Here's what I say to myself: "Mean what you play, even when you didn't play what you meant." That's advice for people who are a bit below the level of most of the folks in this discussion.

 

But there are definitely wrong notes. I'm mostly a blues player, and not a particularly advanced one. I sat in on a jazz jam last night and some tunes went fine but some were proof that you can play a wrong note, or even a lot of wrong notes! It helps when you have no idea what you're doing.

[I-missRichardTee]

learjeff Offtopic a tad but You said "I'm mostly a blues player, AND NOT A PARTICULARLY advanced one"

I have always wanted to improve my Blues Playing..

Aside from the tried and true, PLAY BLues live as much as possible- is there anything else a person can do to play the deceptively simple ( but NOT simple really otherwise there would be more better ones !! ) Blues Mo Better??

That is a serious question in spite of my clowning!

[Jazz+]

Some parameters for various "free pieces"

 

Random Sequence Piece

Just Sound Piece

Short Note Piece

Cascading Notes

Harmonic Piece

Free Rhythmic Groove

Drone In E

Time, No Changes

Fast Time With No Changes

Unaccompanied Drums

Unaccompanied Bass Piece

Unaccompanied Piano Piece

A Prayer In C Minor

[JeffLearman]

Sure, just kill a lot of brain cells, and marinate the rest of them in alcohol!

 

Alternatively, just do what these cats are doing:

 

[video:youtube]

 

Seriously, with jazz skills, blues should be easy. Start a new thread on this and maybe I'll record the three tricks that I spend almost all night doing at blues jams to fool people into thinking I'm a player.

 

Like any music, it's more about listening than playing.

[lowerhodes]

"If it sounds good, it is good" - Duke Ellington

 

Is this not the answer?

[JeffLearman]

Yeah, there's really not much more to say, but we're saying it anyway.

[Cygnus64]

"If it sounds good, it is good" - Duke Ellington

 

Is this not the answer?

 

Well, sometimes sounding "bad" is also appropriate. It's also surprisingly difficult to do and takes a great degree of skill. On it's own, an F7 #5#9 is a pretty lousy chord, but in context it's killer.

 

"Grotesque" is a powerful sound in one's musical arsenal, whatever the genre. Ligeti, Zeppelin, Coltrane, horror movie composers all used it to their advantage. Even Mozart's dad used toys in his "Toy symphony", it's supposed to sound bad (and therefore be funny).

[GovernorSilver]

One reason this free jazz tune is a classic is the beautiful singable melody. By dismissing all of free jazz, one misses out on gems like this:

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sq9PE-2JVA

 

 

[Michelle ggurl]

I would say there are no wrong notes in that Ornette tune. But then, it's not cacophonous to my ears, seems to me the reason this works is, the ensemble knows the value of the "slow burn". IMHO YMMV and all that.

[JeffLearman]

It's not what the general public would call "ear candy", but it's considerably more accessible than a lot of what a friend of mine used to call the "beeps and squeaks" style of jazz.

[GovernorSilver]

I would say there are no wrong notes in that Ornette tune. But then, it's not cacophonous to my ears, seems to me the reason this works is, the ensemble knows the value of the "slow burn". IMHO YMMV and all that.

 

There is also a shared vision and intent, which separates the Ornette Coleman classics from what most people think of when they rant about free jazz.

 

I also hear purposeful intent in the Craig Taborn clip that was posted, although that is several generations removed from Ornette circa the "Shape Of Jazz To Come" album.

[I-missRichardTee]

Are there "rules"for free jazz as far as "wrong notes" goes?

[GovernorSilver]

Are there "rules"for free jazz as far as "wrong notes" goes?

 

I'm far from an expert on free jazz, but it seems to have the same "rule" as other musical genres (apologies to whoever posted it first):

 

If the note you hear in your head in response to your collaborators (the bass player, the horn player, etc.) is an Ab and you play an A by mistake, that is the wrong note.

 

When I saw Cecil Taylor play, my friend excitedly pointed out that he had just quoted a passage from a post-Romantic classical piece - I forgot if it was byBerlioz, Schoenberg, Messaien, Varese, or someone else. Then he played the exact same passage again about half a minute later - I may not have been familiar with the classical piece, but I know a note-for-note repetition of an earlier phrase when I hear it.

 

When I attended a performance of Messaien's "Vingt regards sur l'enfant-Jésus" (a composition for solo piano) in its entirety, quite a bit of it sounded like it could have been free jazz, except it was all read and played off of sheet music.

[SK]

Usually, and often unfortunately, there are no rules in most free jazz performances, although sometimes a player sets up some improvisational group rules in advance, like Zorn. The strongest free players like Coltrane and Ornette had their personal rules and inner sense of form, to explore and shape solos in an individually logical way. We can hear the conceptual specificity in Ornette's lines for example, which is the reason his voice or sound was so recognizable (as opposed to random playing.) Same for Paul Bley.

 

What are these rules? It's different for everyone, but based in a person's concept of musicality. How's that for a vague answer?

[Joe Muscara]

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAmfDw66phw

[I-missRichardTee]

I am generally not ready for free jazz. I like a few notes, a phrase or so maybe, like JoeY De Francesco, Joe Henderson, Hubbard, Herbie do, but not non stop free. It is above my head. And it also gets into philosophical aspects of aesthetics that are over my abilty to describe.

I make too many mistakes with what I already do now, to bother with free.

But I will say this

Free jazz like trad jazz, and like ALL music, involves the participants LISTENING to ne another as well as to themselves. Listening is one of my biggest complaints about musicians.

One of my"favorites" is eg a tenor sax playing a coltrane like line but rushing the groove- the worst for me.

IF, IF and I highly doubt it, IF the player who rushes a phrase can also play it right in the pocket the way Freddie or Diz or Clifford can, then I respect him otherwise he has a lot to learn- he is not listening to the guys around him.

I am not ready for total free jazz

But once I was in a pop band where the pianist ( I was on bass ) was a listener. When we would play a certain tuneless tune, we would hear a count off, and without benefit of even a key, we would just start playing, and damn sounded good every time.

[GovernorSilver]

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAmfDw66phw

 

I feel sorry for whoever took that lesson seriously.

 

Of course, it's from Expert Village... nuff said.

[GovernorSilver]

I am generally not ready for free jazz. I like a few notes, a phrase or so maybe, like JoeY De Francesco, Joe Henderson, Hubbard, Herbie do, but not non stop free. It is above my head. And it also gets into philosophical aspects of aesthetics that are over my abilty to describe.

I make too many mistakes with what I already do now, to bother with free.

But I will say this

Free jazz like trad jazz, and like ALL music, involves the participants LISTENING to ne another as well as to themselves. Listening is one of my biggest complaints about musicians.

 

When I was attending free improv workshops in Baltimore (usually with John Berndt - great sax player and he does gigs playing "normal" music too - and other great Baltimore improvising musicians in attendance), my main takeaway from these workshops was that listening was the most important ingredient to good group improvisation. If someone was caught not listening, one of the experienced players usually reminded the group to listen, without singling out the offender.

 

Funny thing is, a friend of mine who hates jazz (all of it - free, smooth, bop, whatever) and the sound of saxophones, actually enjoyed Marshall Allen's concert a couple of years ago. She's more into loud and dark rock music. She was able to relate to Allen on an emotional level. After that, she said she still hates sound of a saxophone unless someone intense like Allen is playing it. Just goes to show that listeners can pick up on emotional intent (whether it is genuine or just going through the motions) regardless of the exact notes being played.

 

Oh, and that guy SK who just posted... check out his stuff, his playing backs up his talk. I love his take on "Solar" although some might find it a bit "free":

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler