Is there such a thing as a "wrong note" in jazz any longer?

[I-missRichardTee]

Re: wrong notes.

Saturday I went to the jazz ensemble I'm in, mostly playing guitar, headed by professional jazz guys, and one of the tunes was "Mack the Knife" - and my flute teacher said, "Eric, on this tune, I think it's important to emphasize the 6th on the opening Bb6 chord." Since I was mostly playing Bb maj7 lines. He didn't say they sounded bad, just that, in this style, it wasn't the BEST choice. He mentioned that I sounded sort of like Pat Metheny, which I thought was funny - I admire Pat of course, but I've listened a lot more to the OTHER Pat, Mr. Martino.......

Actually, I don't have all that great a feel for earlier styles of jazz, though I like to hear it of course. My first Miles Davis album was "In A Silent Way", to give you some idea........

later on I learned to enjoy his earlier material.

But I heard a Lester Young tune with both Roy Eldridge and Sweets Edison (two great swing era trumpeters with radically different styles) - not Lester's best, but I loved how both Roy and Sweets played - their tones, their phrasing...

 

I appreciate the feedback.. thank you kindly.

I would kind of watch out for the major seventh on a tune that emphasizes the sevenths neighbor, the sixth.

I don't play more outside kinds of music, so that's my take on Mack The Knife.

 

[Meisenhower]

Not trying to get into anything with you.

 

You start a thread, we respond and you spend the ENTIRE thread monopolizing it with your diatribes to justify YOUR position. You do the same thing on the threads of others, as well.

 

Who cares? Do you really need that much validation? State your position, move on.

 

You ask for our "thoughts" on something, and then when we provide them, you try and tell us how and why we're wrong.

 

Who appointed YOU the world's great jazz educator, to come down to "enlighten the rest of us"?

 

Your views are your views. We respect that. No one here is busting on you about them. Don't try and make your views, ours and we can happily agree to disagree. A good number of us here do that on a regular basis and it's all cool.

 

Seriously, lighten up a little.

 

[Cygnus64]

That is heartening. My teacher used to speak of resolving a wrong note,

 

 

What fun is that? Is your teacher still alive? You should ask for your money back.

 

Beethoven Symphony 1: First note= wrong note. That's why he kicked ass. He didn't wait til measure 367 of Symphony #6 to put in a "wrong note", he started his symphony career with the wrong note (wrong chord actually).

 

Allow me to teach you everything you need to know about music theory:

 

There are twelve notes, put them anywhere you want:

 

1. If people clap a lot, they are in the right place.

 

2. If people are highly offended, they might be in the right place as well.

[frogmonkey]

If you are intending to play an A, but you miss and hit a Bb instead, that is indeed a wrong note.

 

But that's about it.

[David Loving]

Like Frank Zappa says, just repeat the wrong note - the audience will think it was done on purpose and won't know it's a mistake.

[timwat]

imho, absolutely yes. context is everything.

 

Good! Might you provide some "context", for your response?

 

Rhythmic: I'm playing a Latin gig and bandleader calls Maria Cervantes. Rhythm section is laying the clave 3-2, and I decide to sketch out the entire clave backwards - as 2-3. Wrong note(s).

 

Harmonic: I'm playing I Remember Clifford and decide to resolve the head on Eb7 (b7 or dom7, not major 7). Wrong note.

 

Improvising: I'm blowing over So What and begin and end every phrase on the tonic (D or Eb). Every single phrase. Wrong note.

 

Okay, I get how many will classify the last one as "square choice" rather than "wrong note". I know some of you will always prefer "wrong note" = "poor note choice". I also get how some would say, "Sorry, Johnny, 2+2=5 isn't wrong - it's just a poor number choice". And I'm no expert, or instructor, or theorist. There are LOTS of folks on this board who know a lot more about jazz in theory and practice, so if someone wants to disagree entirely with the above, I'm cool with that too.

[MuzikTeechur]

Anyone who thinks good jazz improvisation is just "random notes" has no clue what they're talking about.

 

That said, the more talented improvisors out there may go outside the key area for a moment to build tension, and then return at precisely the right moment. Also, of course, there is "free jazz" where there are no rules, no set temp, no set chords... But that's really deep intellectually and not for most palates.

 

So, yes, wrong notes may be played, and played tastefully. But like certain spices in cooking, too much of something is just... wrong.

[Jazzwee]

Well I have a teacher that constantly alerts me to my 'wrong' notes so I apparently do a lot of them.

 

But I've been taught to think of every improvised note as intentional and part of a big picture. And if I understand the context of why I would play it BEFORE I play it, then it must be a right note.

 

If I played it mechanically and thoughtlessly, then it could be diatonic to the key, but it could be a wrong note. Or maybe my finger just slipped...

 

So my way of thinking is to always be aware of the underlying chord or sub/reharm at every moment and be aware of upbeats vs. downbeats. And so at any given moment, I do feel there CAN be LOTS of wrong notes.

 

[StevenS]

But if Bb sounded better than A, isnt Bb the right note?

[CEB]

..... Also, of course, there is "free jazz" where there are no rules, no set temp, no set chords... But that's really deep intellectually and not for most palates.......

 

But if you have to think so hard to find it palatable is it really good or is it another case of the Emperor's New Clothes?

 

My wife's cat plays some of that new free jazz if I don't put down cover on the piano. Maybe that is why it is free.

[Jazzwee]

I remember being in a Kenny Werner masterclass and he said, "Is free jazz really free?". His conclusion was that yes you just go with the flow and you might flex with time, changes, etc. but I don't think he was buying into the business that the cat can play free jazz

 

I was talking about Herbie in another thread and I recall that when Herbie and Wayne Shorter did this concert at Disney Hall earlier this year, Wayne just noted a few motifs on a sheet the night before. THAT WAS IT. There was no plan. Play anything. Go back to the motif to frame the tune. Change tempo. Change key. It was pretty hard core. Not a single moment of swing.

 

BUT - the resolution was to go back to the motif (often in the key they happen to be in). They did this for most of the tunes that night. I'm sure what they played was what they intended. I bet those decisions were made milliseconds before they played the notes on their instruments

 

I wonder if they felt they played wrong notes . I'm sure the audience couldn't tell. LOL.

[GovernorSilver]

..... Also, of course, there is "free jazz" where there are no rules, no set temp, no set chords... But that's really deep intellectually and not for most palates.......

 

But if you have to think so hard to find it palatable is it really good or is it another case of the Emperor's New Clothes?

 

My wife's cat plays some of that new free jazz if I don't put down cover on the piano. Maybe that is why it is free.

 

Your cat can play "Lonely Woman"? That's really cool! "Lonely Woman" is still one of the best known free jazz tunes out there.

[MuzikTeechur]

I recently took my HS Jazz Ensemble to a competition at Berklee College (well, by "recently" I mean last January).

There was an ensemble from a HS in Western Mass. that was really tight, with a tenor player who was really tearing it down. It was like he was getting paid by the note. Unfortunately he was just blowing random notes - moving his fingers really fast. Looked impressive, sounded like musical vomit. The crowd loved it. The judges absolutely crucified him. Who was right?

[I-missRichardTee]

That is heartening. My teacher used to speak of resolving a wrong note,

 

 

What fun is that? Is your teacher still alive? You should ask for your money back.

 

Beethoven Symphony 1: First note= wrong note. That's why he kicked ass. He didn't wait til measure 367 of Symphony #6 to put in a "wrong note", he started his symphony career with the wrong note (wrong chord actually).

 

Allow me to teach you everything you need to know about music theory:

 

There are twelve notes, put them anywhere you want:

 

1. If people clap a lot, they are in the right place.

 

2. If people are highly offended, they might be in the right place as well.

 

You have aroused my ardor for Beethoven piece.

SO let me see if I have been off my whole life or you are speaking from an enlightened pov

I base my musical choices on AUDIENCE reaction. ok, that sounds like a really good idea. hah ha ha ha ha ha thanks for the entertainment i was bored just a little till I read that

[I-missRichardTee]

Like Frank Zappa says, just repeat the wrong note - the audience will think it was done on purpose and won't know it's a mistake.

 

Aha Frank Z recommends repeating a bad note wrong note, inappropriate note, a flub, a clam, and if I play it a few times I can deceive the audience, hey great idea , thank you Frank.

[I-missRichardTee]

Seriously though... I thought of THIS.. And this came from a genuine jazz giant CLifford Brown. I would hear him going for the right note, miss it, try again, and maybe get it. THAT is a cool jazz thing that I just love.

[CEB]

If you give kitty meth I bet she can do this one.

 

[video:youtube]

[16251]

To MRT - one of my piano teachers would yell at me for playing too much and not saying anything/not knowing where I really am and when you're playing for people they turn their ears off cause they're bored.

 

Well.... I've been reading this and other threads and I'm sorry to say I just skip your views. They're too long and there are way too many in a row. It also reminds me of a bass player I used to jam with and we would solo and keep saying "guys, just one more chorus" and 10 minutes later he was still searching for something.

 

You probably have something good to say but I just don't have enough time in life to care. This is a friendly group of people making some great recipes by everyone adding a little bit.

 

I'm waiting for you to start a thread and no-one responds except yourself.

 

Sorry for being so candid. I've implied this in other threads but in a more humorous way. - Peace

[I-missRichardTee]

You are correct

[I-missRichardTee]

Not trying to get into anything with you.

 

You start a thread, we respond and you spend the ENTIRE thread monopolizing it with your diatribes to justify YOUR position. You do the same thing on the threads of others, as well.

 

Who cares? Do you really need that much validation? State your position, move on.

 

You ask for our "thoughts" on something, and then when we provide them, you try and tell us how and why we're wrong.

 

Who appointed YOU the world's great jazz educator, to come down to "enlighten the rest of us"?

 

Your views are your views. We respect that. No one here is busting on you about them. Don't try and make your views, ours and we can happily agree to disagree. A good number of us here do that on a regular basis and it's all cool.

 

Seriously, lighten up a little.

 

I am looking to communicate my experience with that small minority of people are wishing to learn something from me. Elitist? me, likely yes. I know my place in the hierarchy of jazz musicians- somewhere in the middle of the pecking order- on a forum like this, I am on the higher side of that hierarchy- in other words I can help someone who wishes to unravel some of the confusion that comes with the terrotory of improvisation; and in a society that is burgeoning with confusing messages.

There are young people in this crazy confusing world that need straight talk from a guy like me. Meisenhower I don't believe you are being disrespectful to me, sir, and I want to acknowledge that and thank you for that. BUT I am an older experienced person who CAN help those who are not a part of what is going on in music and SOCIETY today.

I do not have the education to adequately describe what I acutely feel about this society. I deal with it begrudgingly, but a youngster might be overwhelmed and fooled by it. He will eventually wake up, my goal is to tip him off sooner.

Young person, this is for you. YES resoundingly, there are WRONG notes, end of discussion. Yes, there are styles of music, and the more time passes, the more styles are created. One jazz man represents this idea that I have trouble with even though I know the WHY. He says. be modern quickly because of competition, He says get with the latest music quickly as opposed to what I believe. Either path, it is very difficult- art music, not easy at all !

I am calling for young jazz artists to go back to 1930 and develop a powerful foundation while at the same time being modern too.

The term TIMELESS applies in music as in life.

Wrong notes are ( not best term for it ) something that has always existed and I suspect always will.

It is part of the timeless idea of "Freedom within the Form", or "Fantasy but with Order".

The society is teaching the young that all bets are off, anything goes. I am here to say, maybe for some, but if you feel differently, I am here to tell you that your feeling is on the money, and is in a sense timeless.

 

My apology to those of you that are offended my these words

[Meisenhower]

MRT,

 

I complete agree with you that musicians (young or old) should have a good foundation of where the music they choose to play comes from. If your passion is jazz, then it is essential to become competent and understand the music that the idiom is based on . . . the building blocks, if you will.

 

Swing, ragtime, west coast cool, hard bop, post bop, fusion, afro-cubano, latin (just to name a few) all provide a rich history that allow us to paint our musical pictures with rich textures and brilliant colors, as we have all these amazing ideas to draw from, IF we've actually spent time learning, playing and integrating aspects of those styles into our musical life.

 

No argument there from me at all. I commend and applaud your desire to facilitate thought and discussion to those who are up and coming.

 

Are there wrong notes, in absolute terms? Sure . . . at times there are, at other times, that can be a very subjective call.

 

The nice thing about the nature of music is "when" (not if) we make a mistake, it is in the moment and the moment is gone. It is as fleeting as time itself. If that mistake is caught on a recording, what's the worst thing that happens? Not much really. It's hardly like if a neurosurgeon makes a slip of the knife and now Mr. Smith can no longer speak, walk or remember his childhood.

 

Now, I did come across something that you wrote that gives me pause and given your commitment to the past, and the developmental history of the idiom, can you elucidate on the following statement (taken from your response to Eric about Mack the Knife)?

 

I don't play more outside kinds of music, so that's my take on Mack The Knife.

Emphasis added.

 

Why? Is it simply a personal taste thing? I'm just curious (this is not indictment or meant to be belittling in anyway).

 

It is such a part of the development of jazz, that its difficult to conceive not taking some lesson from the ability to "play out" as well as keeping in a strict harmonic or melodic context. I personally see this equally as important as anything that came before it.

 

 

[Cygnus64]

There was an ensemble from a HS in Western Mass. that was really tight, with a tenor player who was really tearing it down. It was like he was getting paid by the note. Unfortunately he was just blowing random notes - moving his fingers really fast. Looked impressive, sounded like musical vomit. The crowd loved it. The judges absolutely crucified him. Who was right?

 

Everybody was right. The judges were right because they knew he was blowin' shiat. The audience was right because they are ALWAYS right (at least those who pay). The kid was right, because he played to the only people that mattered (in the non-academic world), the audience.

 

The kid should get two grades: an "F" for failing measurably, and an "A" for accomplishing the real-world objective.

[David Loving]

If the kid knows how to put on a show, then he is ahead, regardless what the academics think.

[Michelle ggurl]

Yes, there is.

[Michelle ggurl]

There are twelve notes, put them anywhere you want:

 

1. If people clap a lot, they are in the right place.

 

2. If people are highly offended, they might be in the right place as well.

 

Yup! This is one of my favorite posts in recent memory. Of course, as with all things, context is everything ...

[Michelle ggurl]

I base my musical choices on AUDIENCE reaction. ok, that sounds like a really good idea. hah ha ha ha ha ha thanks for the entertainment i was bored just a little till I read that

 

I don't know, I didn't really read that way at all. Maybe I just don't know anything. For me Cygnus' quip had a bit of a deeper meaning, attributed to a player's conviction, and also ability to "say" something that has impact. And if a musician plays something with enough power to illicit a strong reaction (either good or bad) it's probably worth giving it a listen to see what is causing such a strong reaction. Audiences and critics will decide what they like, often with diametrically opposed tastes. So I guess in the end, I guess it really is in the ear of the beholder. But seriously, yeah, I've heard plenty of "wrong" notes that have more to do with lack of conviction, lack of seeming to "get it" within the context of whatever kind of improvisational vibe is going on, or constraints within a style (exceptions can be introduced too, but as an editor in publishing industry in my former life, we'd say you can break grammatical rules, but you should know what you are breaking, and for what effect -- analogy seems appropriate here) etc. YMMV.

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

There was an ensemble from a HS in Western Mass. that was really tight, with a tenor player who was really tearing it down. It was like he was getting paid by the note. Unfortunately he was just blowing random notes - moving his fingers really fast. Looked impressive, sounded like musical vomit. The crowd loved it. The judges absolutely crucified him. Who was right?

 

Everybody was right. The judges were right because they knew he was blowin' shiat. The audience was right because they are ALWAYS right (at least those who pay). The kid was right, because he played to the only people that mattered (in the non-academic world), the audience.

 

The kid should get two grades: an "F" for failing measurably, and an "A" for accomplishing the real-world objective.

 

"The Kid", is a symbol for me. The symbol of when anyone has the guts to get on stage and uninhibitedly do the best.

But outside the confines of the "Kids" world, he would be treated closer to how the judges treated him or her. Sorry, that is my experience.

[I-missRichardTee]

If the kid knows how to put on a show, then he is ahead, regardless what the academics think.

 

Now your words having meaning for me as well. The phrase "how to put on a show" is relevant to the real world.

I am not contradicting myself either. If you are playing a relatively high amount of "funny" "flubby" notes... the real world will likely ignore you.

So you don't have to be anywhere near a genius - just say at Kenny G's level - and add the capacity to "put on a show, and I got sad news for you, the hald way decent showman will work to larger crowds etc, than the significantly more serious and talented and more practicing shall I say, "non show person".

How do you like them apples?

Putting on a show is not my strong suit. I know more about groove, and about harmony- in short " a better player" than the showman, but showman whips my you know what most times because I have not cultivated "showmanship" or whatever synonym du jour you prefer.

[I-missRichardTee]

I base my musical choices on AUDIENCE reaction. ok, that sounds like a really good idea. hah ha ha ha ha ha thanks for the entertainment i was bored just a little till I read that

 

I don't know, I didn't really read that way at all. Maybe I just don't know anything. For me Cygnus' quip had a bit of a deeper meaning, attributed to a player's conviction, and also ability to "say" something that has impact. And if a musician plays something with enough power to illicit a strong reaction (either good or bad) it's probably worth giving it a listen to see what is causing such a strong reaction. Audiences and critics will decide what they like, often with diametrically opposed tastes. So I guess in the end, I guess it really is in the ear of the beholder. But seriously, yeah, I've heard plenty of "wrong" notes that have more to do with lack of conviction, lack of seeming to "get it" within the context of whatever kind of improvisational vibe is going on, or constraints within a style (exceptions can be introduced too, but as an editor in publishing industry in my former life, we'd say you can break grammatical rules, but you should know what you are breaking, and for what effect -- analogy seems appropriate here) etc. YMMV.

 

 

Did my most recent posts kind of coincide with what you say above?

 

I once backed up a singer ( he asked to "sit in " ) who had a few hits a looong time ago- his last name is Daniels- see, you never heard of him!

This guy blew my mind because I appreciate all manner of talent.

He must have been a closet and consummate actor.

He begins by talking in a dramatic way as if he is a Mother speaking to her son. And it goes on from there. BEFORE he had sung a single note, he had the sophisticated audience in the palm of his hand... a terrific lesson for me.

The sax player running his fingers as fast as he can for the competition, WITH his people in the audience ( only takes a handful to create than spark ) and this consummate old pro had something in common, didn't they?

[I-missRichardTee]

MRT,

 

I complete agree with you that musicians (young or old) should have a good foundation of where the music they choose to play comes from. If your passion is jazz, then it is essential to become competent and understand the music that the idiom is based on . . . the building blocks, if you will.

 

Swing, ragtime, west coast cool, hard bop, post bop, fusion, afro-cubano, latin (just to name a few) all provide a rich history that allow us to paint our musical pictures with rich textures and brilliant colors, as we have all these amazing ideas to draw from, IF we've actually spent time learning, playing and integrating aspects of those styles into our musical life.

 

No argument there from me at all. I commend and applaud your desire to facilitate thought and discussion to those who are up and coming.

 

Are there wrong notes, in absolute terms? Sure . . . at times there are, at other times, that can be a very subjective call.

 

The nice thing about the nature of music is "when" (not if) we make a mistake, it is in the moment and the moment is gone. It is as fleeting as time itself. If that mistake is caught on a recording, what's the worst thing that happens? Not much really. It's hardly like if a neurosurgeon makes a slip of the knife and now Mr. Smith can no longer speak, walk or remember his childhood.

 

Now, I did come across something that you wrote that gives me pause and given your commitment to the past, and the developmental history of the idiom, can you elucidate on the following statement (taken from your response to Eric about Mack the Knife)?

 

I don't play more outside kinds of music, so that's my take on Mack The Knife.

Emphasis added.

 

Why? Is it simply a personal taste thing? I'm just curious (this is not indictment or meant to be belittling in anyway).

 

It is such a part of the development of jazz, that its difficult to conceive not taking some lesson from the ability to "play out" as well as keeping in a strict harmonic or melodic context. I personally see this equally as important as anything that came before it.

 

 

A lot to bite off there, but I started this, sooo!

 

I can answer in sound bites, not really a cogent series of paragraphs- it would take hours!!

 

I am not all that big on outside playing.

But it depends on your definition of outside, or more accurately on the DEGREE and DURATION of Outside.

 

I swear to you, I was standing in a crowded jazz club, and next to me was G Benson a man I deeply admire. We are far from the bandstand, I think it was upstairs and we were downstairs and though we didn't know one another- he says to me something about " being in the cold, too long". "Cold", meant "outside". So since my taste is perhaps a little tiny bit more outside than his- just guessing here- he was saying the cat needed to come out from the cold and play sdmething inside.

 

Playing inside in an exciting manner the way George usually does, is no small feat.

The reason I don't entertain outside playing is because my inside playing needs more work.

 

Now another point- Joey De Francesco plays outside lines that I absolutely treasure. I treasure them because I do resonate with outside playing to a point.

I feel my other hero Freddie Hubbard definitely plays outside. BUT ONLY FOR a short DURATION. That is the key to all of this... the duration, and taste I suppose.

One of my first heroes was John Coltrane. SO outside is very cool to a point.

But NOT Cecil T... I can't "try that away from home"- lol

 

edit re Cecil Taylor and the like How can you tell when these type of players who I still respect ( just nor like I respect Bird and company ) , are hitting a wrong note.. you cannot. I am still dealing with missing the note I heard in my head, my intended target note(s). I have a long way to go, before I can smoothly go from killer inside to killer outside and back... a long way.. don't we all?

 

I brought up this topic for semi conscious reasons- I am artistic nature, so hang me- I feel something confusing going on in society and in music and I feel young players ought to hear a voice of what might be for them, sanity