Cursed with small hands?

[Michelle ggurl]

Big hands have obviously an advantage when playing that kind of piece. But small hands can gain a lot of elasticity thru exercise.

Extension exercises, when carefully done, can enlarge your hand's span slightly. Look at Alicia De Larrocha, or Katia Labeque.... they have very small hands, but they can play all the heavy stuff nonetheless.

Only thing, be sure to do exstensions under the supervision of an expert teacher - preferably, one with small hands so he/she knows what you're talking about!

The basic concept is that you keep the extended position for VERY short periods of time, like a few milliseconds at a time. Be sure to keep mobility in your whole arm to support the hand's movements.

A classic exercise is, start with your thumb on a D note, then you alternate that D (always played with the thumb) with D sharp, then E, F, etc. played with index, always one semitone higher until you can possibly play the two notes legato, then back down again.

The secret is, *don't try to keep the two fingers on their respective notes*, but practice a "rolling" hand-wrist-hand movement to support the fingers. This way, you will stretch only for a very short time, which is what you want.

Repeat with all combinations of two fingers: 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, etc.

 

Another good concept is this: If a large chord requires finger tension, try to release it as soon as you've played it. Usuall, holding down notes requires less energy than playing them in the first place, but often pianists keep hand tension even when it's not necessary anymore. It requires a lot of practice, but it can be learned.

 

 

As usual Marino, you make a hell of a lot of good sense. This ^^^^

[Keymosaby]

Wastrel, Should have known any post with some character to it would be met with profane sarcasm. How many people do you know who have been endorsed by Steinway? Did you bother to google him? I should've left the death part out. I guess if he'd been a zonked out coke head who committed suicide he would be a hero right? He died because he had a heart defect. I can see where you would find humor in that, especially the penis part. He probably has over a quarter of a million views on Utube. Is that something like what you have?

My point, which was to the opening poster, was small hands don't have to be a curse. Anthony had very small hands and was still one of the world's top pianist. I guess encouragement is discouraged here? I'll have to remember that. Anthony Burger has fans who loved him and people who wish they could play like him all over the world. Shouldn't have brought his name in here.

[MAJUSCULE]

Whoa, let's everyone grab a mid-week drink of choice and chill, here.

 

Keymosaby, KC is a cool place. Hang around and you'll see. Welcome to the forum; sorry it might have started rough for you.

 

Hand size doesn't matter! Does anyone know this one: "Free your mind and your chops will follow." It's all in your head and in your habit, folks. Practice and perseverance.

[David Loving]

This thread is close to the "David Burge perfect pitch" thread. Why anybody would spend a cent on that con is beyond me - the photo in the hat ought to tell you something - you don't want to be seen on a bandwagon with somebody who looks like him! There is zero profit in spending time wishing for natural gifts that one does not have. Think Marian McPhartland has big hands - ever listen to her playing? Check out Marino's tip - do your best with the ears hands and brain that you bring to the gig.

[Threadslayer]

Wastrel, Should have known any post with some character to it would be met with profane sarcasm. How many people do you know who have been endorsed by Steinway? Did you bother to google him? I should've left the death part out. I guess if he'd been a zonked out coke head who committed suicide he would be a hero right? He died because he had a heart defect. I can see where you would find humor in that, especially the penis part. He probably has over a quarter of a million views on Utube. Is that something like what you have?

My point, which was to the opening poster, was small hands don't have to be a curse. Anthony had very small hands and was still one of the world's top pianist. I guess encouragement is discouraged here? I'll have to remember that. Anthony Burger has fans who loved him and people who wish they could play like him all over the world. Shouldn't have brought his name in here.

 

As McGoo noted, the thread had taken a silly turn and everyone was having fun kicking it around. You decided to raise the moral tone and turn it into a two-hankie weeper. Did you really expect everyone to genuflect? Maybe lighten up a little.

[HammondDave]

Have you ever seen Joey D's hands? They Are very small.

[VLH]

This thread is close to the "David Burge perfect pitch" thread. Why anybody would spend a cent on that con is beyond me - the photo in the hat ought to tell you something - you don't want to be seen on a bandwagon with somebody who looks like him! There is zero profit in spending time wishing for natural gifts that one does not have. Think Marian McPhartland has big hands - ever listen to her playing? Check out Marino's tip - do your best with the ears hands and brain that you bring to the gig.

 

As someone who has struggled with the issues related to hand size and flexibility my entire life, I have to disagree with this one. I'd love to have a portable keyboard in the Steinbuhler 7/8 size. Geekgurl notes that she is 4'11 yet can stretch to a 10th. I can only stretch to a 9th, and even octaves tire me out. For most jazz, I choose closed, tight harmonies, which is fine--but I simply can't provide the open 10th voicings in the bass that sound so great and that vocalists love; and no matter what people tell you, there's a big difference in the sound of those "rolled" and the sound played at once.

 

When it comes to the classical literature, the frustrations are even greater. Have you tried the Chopin Ballades? I worked couldn't even hack them. Take a look at the performer's hand torqueing to play an e7 on the Steinbuhler page, and then playing it naturally on the scaled-down keys. That's a closed e7 she's doing. And that's how my hands are all the time. It's a genuine, frustrating problem that can't be appreciated unless you face it.

 

Of course, most players will do the best they can with what they have; that's what I try to do. But I'd love to have a keyboard that fit my body. Imagine that you had to do the playing you do now while wearing a tight binders around your lowest knuckles. Better yet, get some thick rubber bands and try it for a month. That's the experience a person without the reach has while trying to play on a standard keyboard.

 

I studied five years with a tiny concert pianist. Her hands were the same size as mine, but much more flexible. We worked hard to loosen mine, but the reality is that my body is what it is. You can't understand the frustration unless you've had to deal with it. I know that having a right-sized keyboard would not make me a better player. But it would make some things that remain tiring for me easier--and this would enable me to tackle new challenges. Most important, it would open up more channels of expression, which is what interests me.

[Threadslayer]

I've always had fairly large hands (more like a bear's paws than a concert pianist's) and historically haven't had an issue with 10th's in either hand. Over the last couple of years I've developed osteo arthritis in the base joint of both thumbs so I find I need to think ahead more than I used to when going for more than an octave. I was once told that Les Paul was in an auto accident which damaged his right elbow and that he elected to have his arm set at an agle so he could still play the guitar. I don't know if this is true, but I can see myself doing something similar if I could no longer manage an octave with my left hand.

[David Loving]

I hate to crash the yearnings, but IMO you are much better off, and will play better, if you just accept things as they are and work around them. I can dream of winning the lottery so I can buy a concert grand, too. Many of the things that one thinks are deficiencies do not have to be. Often one's limitations can go far to defining a personal style. I guess it's a glass half full/half empty way of looking at things. I like to think of the glass as at least 3/4 full - kinda a waltz.

[Polkahero]

Not really related to hand size, but do any of you guys with thick fingers have problems with them getting stuck in between black keys? I have a pretty small ring size and just wondered about that. . .

[Eric Iverson]

I'm not a pianist, but I can tell you that large hands are helpful on guitar, too - but there are many excellent guitarists with small hands.

And yes, we also have exercises to increase our reach if needed.

 

I don't think it affects horn players much, but my flute teacher, who has small hands, has an extension on a couple of keys on his flute. I guess he just doesn't want to stress his hands - it's definitely not a case of laziness!

[Michelle ggurl]

Geekgurl notes that she is 4'11 yet can stretch to a 10th. I can only stretch to a 9th, and even octaves tire me out.

 

.......

 

I studied five years with a tiny concert pianist. Her hands were the same size as mine, but much more flexible. We worked hard to loosen mine, but the reality is that my body is what it is. You can't understand the frustration unless you've had to deal with it. I know that having a right-sized keyboard would not make me a better player. But it would make some things that remain tiring for me easier--and this would enable me to tackle new challenges. Most important, it would open up more channels of expression, which is what interests me.

 

Well, VLH, I can appreciate your frustration to a degree, even though it's not related to spanning keys on a keyboard. When I was growing up I was pretty athletic, and my favorite sports to play were basketball and volleyball. Talk about never being able to physically "measure up" ... at 4'11", I pretty much got frustrated and quit sports when I was a freshman in high school. At least with piano you don't have to "quit."

 

You're right that your physiology is what it is, but I'm wondering, when working with this petite pianist on hand extensions, did you notice any improvement?

 

One thing too that I may as well add is, I am double-jointed in my hands (at least that's what I've been told this is) ... when I stretch my hands to make these reaches, the middle knuckle (not at the base of the hand, the next one down the finger) locks straight and my outermost joint (before the finger tip) bends down; I've noticed that this is how I hit those big spans. This double-jointedness is not that uncommon ... I've seen other people do it (musicians or not) but if someone's never seen it before, it kinda freaks them out, LOL. My point is, that's as much of a curse as a help. Being loose-jointed has disadvantages too.

 

So why not be grateful for the strengths you have, and play to those? If you have to roll some 10ths, roll the 10ths. I read a quote the other day which seems applicable to this discussion: "Work to your strengths; if all you work on are your weaknesses, you'll just end up with a lot of strong weaknesses." Not to eschew personal improvement altogether, but I'm sure you can appreciate the spirit of that quote.

[VLH]

Of course I'm grateful for the strengths I have, and of course I work to them--I don't believe I indicated otherwise. (I first read the advice you quoted as coming from Peter Drucker, management advice--but it fits for every endeavor.)That doesn't mean that I'm not also deeply aware of my weaknesses--I have to be in order to develop workarounds. That should go without saying. But there is also the reality that certain bodies do some things better than others. I play both piano and vibes (4 mallets). I've put more hours in on piano than on vibes--and yet I'm a much better vibist. The reason is that it works for my body better; my native muscle skills seem to fit better for that instrument. But I love to play both and perform on both. I saw the same with my son. When he switched from violin to upright bass, he was overnight a better-sounding musician. My point here is that physical structure of instrument and player does matter. A piano with a slightly smaller keyboard is going to ease some of these issues for me and for other people with similar bodies, that's all. To try to deny that doesn't make sense to me. And as I noted in my first comment, easing that problem (via a smaller keyboard) would enable me to take on some other challenges. What's unreasonable about that line of thinking besides the relative unavailability of altered pianos? Read the Steinbuhler page and you'll see that Hoffman toured on a 7/8-scale Steinway for two decades. Would it have been better for him to deny his limitations and force himself to play on a full-sized instrument rather than a right-sized one?

 

As for working with the petite concertist, my skills grew incredibly, in technique, expression, interpretation, analysis, and understanding multiple ways to approach a piece of music. But, importantly, my flexibility changed very little. I studied with her from 98-2003, during which time I put in 3 - 5 hours of practice daily. But my body is what it is and I have noted a lack of flexibility when doing other activities as well (eg, when I would stretch with other runners, etc.). The advice from people to just accept it is well-meaning--and of course, as I noted, I DO accept it and work with what I have to do the best I can. That's kind of a no-brainer. But the advice does not address the issue of the structure of the keyboard. Or the reality that the limitation is real. Saying that it's not a limitation is kind of foolish. Put on that rubber band like I suggested, and see what you think. Seriously, put that on and tell me it's not a limitation.

[Michelle ggurl]

I hope you didn't think *I* was dismissing your limitation, VLH. I didn't intend for it to sound that way, which is specifically why I brought up examples of how my physical attributes were insufficient for some things, but how they were advantageous for others.

 

Maybe if enough keyboardists got together and formed a special-interest group and approached some instrument manufacturers you'll get heard and find a smaller-scale keyboard controller on the market. User-created SIGs have guided the direction of other industries so I suppose it's possible ...

[VLH]

Geekgurl: this video is for you.

 

Muggsy blocks

 

There's room for shorties in the NBA. Muggsy did it.

[Michelle ggurl]

Except now I'm too old and out of shape, LOL. I mean, and that's just for starters ...

[VLH]

I had emailed Steinbuhler 3 yrs ago to see if any digital keyboard makers were working on his redesign. At that time, he said Yamaha had a minor interest and he'd keep me on the mailing list. Of course, nothing has happened...but I just sent him another email to see if anything's been moving.

[jpapas]

... IMO you are much better off, and will play better, if you just accept things as they are and work around them. ..

 

Truer words were never spoken, just check this out

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbhW_K3NvmQ&feature=player_embedded

 

 

[kanker.]

... IMO you are much better off, and will play better, if you just accept things as they are and work around them. ..

 

Truer words were never spoken, just check this out

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbhW_K3NvmQ&feature=player_embedded

 

Alternately....

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7CeoUZbW3Y

[moj]

Alternately....

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7CeoUZbW3Y

 

Awesome toe jam!

[Seannn]

I have small hands, I can't really stretch past a ninth unless I use the sides of the keys (that helps me stretch to a tenth, barely). A friend of mine who is studying piano told me that stretching has helped him play greater intervals.

I don't know how much truth there is in that, or what exercises to choose. KC? Anyone?

 

On the flip side of all this, when I'm playing an instrument such as the Bb clarinet, I need to adjust my fingering a bit since I'm used to big stretches. (Throughout high school, I played bass clarinet, which required long finger stretches, and they were a breeze thanks to piano.)

[Michelle ggurl]

I use the side of the keys sometimes too, Wolvesparade ... if it's accurate it counts.

 

Actually after posting on this thread I tested my limberness to find some has been lost. I used to be able to play all minor 10ths and more than half of the major 10ths and now I can play all minor 10ths and only a few of the major 10ths. I don't play classical anymore so I wonder if this is why -- a "use it or lose it" scenario -- or if it's a matter of age. I also have longer span in my left hand than right.

 

On the other side of the coin, tho, that double-jointedness doesn't give me performance problems it used to. Sometimes my fingers would lock in a straight position without warning -- it was quick and easy to "unstick" and didn't cause too much performance glitch, but I would have to consciously relax the finger while playing and unlock the joint. Bizarre. So it could be that over the years I have swapped some flexibility for strength.

 

As far as exercises, I now remember that one thing I did while practicing to improve my span was roll into a chord, but keep the fingers on the keys, but not keep the stretched position very long. However, refer to Marino's post ... you want to do any "stretching" work incrementally, and I don't think you should do anything that creates pain. What this means is, you really can't hold a position that strains you for long. Like any stretching though, you would experience less strain doing the same stretch over time, but as VLH has pointed out, everyone has physical limitations. Know when to quit, but honestly, if this is an important technique/attribute for you to attain, do so under guidance of a piano teacher you trust to show you the right technique. Even after that, you still need to listen to your own body.

 

I know a pianist who was ruined by a technique taught by one of the best university teachers/celebrated pianists of my day. It has to do with communication of that technique on the teacher's part AND the student's application of that to understanding of their own body.

[VLH]

If you don't look at the videos and just listen to the sound of those two players (the fingerless and armless ones) you'll be less impressed...basically, someone mashes the pedal down and pokes out notes, with varying amounts of emotional sensitivity, and legato achieved largely through pedal mashing. I'm not saying that what they've accomplished isn't extraordinary--it is awe-inspiring to SEE someone play the piano with toes or with a deformed hand. And I'm like everyone else; seeing it brings a tear to my eye. But I would not pay to hear this music, not would I seek it out.

 

I'm talking about attempting to perform at a very high level of proficiency, and being limited by arbitrary design conventions. The key size of acoustic and digital pianos is a convention. If you read the other thread on this topic -- are your hands too big? -- you'll see that for some players, large hands are also a frustrating limitation.

 

The fact is that keyboards CAN be scaled to different sizes, larger or smaller, that alleviate some of these technical problems. Yes, one should expect pianists and all musicians to strive to overcome certain kinds of limitations. EG, some people have a less innate sense of internal rhythm than others. Some have difficulty memorizing. Some have a less well-developed sense of pitch. Some can't shift emotional gears quickly as called for by the music, or are not as sensitive to the emotional content. Most musicians have various weaknesses that they strive to overcome. BUT, when the "weakness" is caused directly by an arbitrary design factor (in this particular case, the arbitrary decision to set the octave at a span of 6.5"), it's fair to suggest that a mechanical change should be considered. Consider as a thought experiment: what if the keyboard had been set at 5" to the octave, making it nearly impossible for 50% of keyboard corner members to play anything but the simplest of pieces with any accuracy?

 

Citing the accomplishments of concert-level specific individuals (de la Rocha, small hands; Liszt, huge hands) in overcoming that limitation does not negate the reality that this particular limitation is an arbitrary one. Accomplishments are always a mix of many things: innate skills, body shape relative to intended goal, mental and physical health, training, self-discipline, luck, social networks, marketing capacity, and the list goes on. One should ask, though, which of these can be minimized as barriers? Music is not a competition, wherein the basketball hoop is set at a specific height, and we know that a 7 foot person is going to have certain built-in advantages--and we can be amazed that a tiny player like Muggsy Bogues, at 5'3, can make great plays, but we would not expect them to lower that basket every time he ducked between someone's legs to take a shot. Music is a form of emotional and intellectual expression, and the more we can remove barriers to that, the more access we'll give to people to both express themselves and to develop a deep appreciation of the expressive capacity of others. Many of the recent technological innovations have been about removing some of those barriers.

 

When playing pop and jazz, one can develop workarounds for some physical limitations, because these genres rely on the development of your own unique voice. When attempting the legit repertoire, this is a different matter. Revoicing a Chopin Ballade to fit a small hand isn't going to cut it. (Moreover, there is ample evidence that Chopin performed on keyboards closer to 6.25" to the octave.)

 

Look at it this way: on this board people keep demanding ever-better sound and action from their digital instruments. This makes sense--no says, "Sorry, you should focus on making the best music possible out of a buzz wave and doorbell action." We want better instruments because better action and better sounds open up more expressive capacity. If the piano could ONLY be made with a keyboard 6.5" to the octave, I'd say fine, don't address this issue. But this limitation is imposed by custom alone. For a history on this issue, see the Steinbuhler website.

 

FYI, I contacted Steinbuhler Friday and heard back from him this morning on whether there's been any progress on digital pianos. Here's his response:

"Good to hear from you. The smaller keyboard project is going to be a long process but slowly things are moving forward. I mentioned electronic keyboards at the bottom of Our Story in my web site www.steinbuhler.com/html/our_story.html as a driver. Nothing that I know about has happened to date. I have made small efforts to contact electronic keyboard manufacturers but with no success at all. It would be great if you could generate some interest."

 

 

 

 

 

[minorguy]

More small hands here. Octaves are about what I can reach, and I don't normally play them from directly overtop. I can just barely play a ninth if I just catch the lip of the keys. And, to borrow from Monty Python, tenths are right out. Though, I also see all these videos

that make me want to shut up. Of course, all happy talk aside, I can empathize with VLH. No matter how good you can do if you put your mind to it, you can do better still if you can reach the darn keys. I wish I could.

Anyway I'm glad just to have music and derive some happiness from it. Many people around me don't play an instrument at all, or don't play as well as I do just because it isn't in their head. I think playing music for a living can be the best job in the world. But in a way I think I'm fortunate not to be doing that now so I can play to enjoy it. There's enough good music in the world that if I can't reach it, I just play something else.