David Burge Perfect Pitch Course

[iLaw]

If anyone is seriously interested in the research on absolute pitch, click here for 18 pages to get you started.

 

Follow that up with as many of the 90+ studies that Diana cites in her bibliography as you have time for.

 

As I may have mentioned here before, 30 years ago I partially paid for grad school working as a psychomusicology research assistant. Diana Deutsch was already a big gun in this area and I love it that, emeritus status or no, she's still at it.

 

Larry.

[Cygnus64]

also is perfect pitch a result of playing an instrument or would one still have perfect pitch even if they never played an instrument?

 

They would have to be able to "translate". If one didn't play or sing, they would have no point of reference, they wouldn't know how to name the tones.

If you read some of the studies by Diana Deutsch, you'll find that those who natively fluent speak a tone-based language like Vietnamese or Mandarin have the ability to repeat pitches of their language nearly exactly over separate days. A study showed that this ability carried over to music.

 

http://www.aip.org/148th/deutsch.html

 

I've heard this. And yet in the real world, I've not noticed a significant amount of Asians having perfect pitch any moreso than another group, maybe they do. It's also been said that a certain subset of Jewish people (Ashkenazi Jewish) have a strong genetic case for it. This is why one study wanted a blood test from me.

 

Here's a study I took part in. I found this interesting:

 

Almost no one who started musical training after the age of 12 had perfect pitch, they discovered.

clonk

 

[LeesKeys]

If I was going to spend $$ on any kind of lessons, I would recommend membership at Willie Myette's site (http://www.pianowithwillie.com/). I subscribe to his site and have found the lessons VERY helpful in improving my playing. Who knows, it may have improved my pitch recognition too, but that's not that important to me.

[Joe Muscara]

And yet in the real world, I've not noticed a significant amount of Asians having perfect pitch any moreso than another group, maybe they do.

What other Asian languages are tone-based? The study says that's key. They only mention Mandarin and Vietnamese. I don't know if any others are. You would have to limit your anecdotal evidence to just those.

[Cygnus64]

And yet in the real world, I've not noticed a significant amount of Asians having perfect pitch any moreso than another group, maybe they do.

What other Asian languages are tone-based? The study says that's key. They only mention Mandarin and Vietnamese. I don't know if any others are. You would have to limit your anecdotal evidence to just those.

 

Right. That's pretty easy to do in classical music, just go to work. I'm going to rehearsal tonight, I'll ask some questions. One girl is from Vietnam, several are Chinese, I don't have a clue what dialects they speak.

[Cygnus64]

And yet in the real world, I've not noticed a significant amount of Asians having perfect pitch any moreso than another group, maybe they do.

What other Asian languages are tone-based? The study says that's key. They only mention Mandarin and Vietnamese. I don't know if any others are. You would have to limit your anecdotal evidence to just those.

 

Right. That's pretty easy to do in classical music, just go to work. I'm going to rehearsal tonight, I'll ask some questions. One girl is from Vietnam, several are Chinese, I don't have a clue what dialects they speak.

 

None of them have perfect pitch, their relatives don't either, nor does their circle of friends. Hardly scientific but it's what I expected.

[Sven Golly]

If I was going to spend $$ on any kind of lessons, I would recommend membership at Willie Myette's site (http://www.pianowithwillie.com/). I subscribe to his site and have found the lessons VERY helpful in improving my playing. Who knows, it may have improved my pitch recognition too, but that's not that important to me.

 

Ummm.... somewhat of a red herring in a thread specifically discussing learning (or attempting to learn) perfect pitch, no?

 

For the long-timers reading this, I couldn't help but think of Dave Horne when this thread popped up.

[Bridog6996]

Damn, it's certainly been a while since Dave Horne frequented these parts.

[plangentmusic]

Short answers.

 

Yes, I've done the course.

 

Yes, the hype is ridiculous.

 

No, it can't teach you to have perfect pitch.

 

Yes, it can help you recognize note by their "tone color."

 

I did it a while ago so I can't say for sure how much of an effect it's had but I often can recognize the note of a pitch (most easily in the morning for some peculiar reason) and I guess it's cool and I guess it helps, HOWEVER, it is not reliable. It IS NOT the same as someone with natural perfect pitch. Therefore, it really isn't too practical.

 

If you have great relative pitch and can hear any interval and movement and voicing, it's just as good. I know a lot of guys with perfect pitch who are awful players. It still comes down to creativity and execution.

[Griffinator]

Frankly, I think the whole concept of being "born with" perfect pitch is flawed on its face.

 

How in the world would someone be "born with" an instant and perfect tone relationship understanding of the Western 12-note scale?

 

Sorry, but conditioning is the only way to make that happen.

[dazzjazz]

I agree, therefore it's something that is, and can be, learned.

 

Darren

 

Frankly, I think the whole concept of being "born with" perfect pitch is flawed on its face.

 

How in the world would someone be "born with" an instant and perfect tone relationship understanding of the Western 12-note scale?

 

Sorry, but conditioning is the only way to make that happen.

[Sven Golly]

I agree, therefore it's something that is, and can be, learned.

 

No offense, but you're somewhat biased to agree with that position, no?

[Griffinator]

I agree, therefore it's something that is, and can be, learned.

 

No offense, but you're somewhat biased to agree with that position, no?

 

Rather than attacking the messenger, why not refute the message?

 

Is there any logic to the idea of someone "inheriting" via DNA an ability to discern a very specific set of frequency order rules (the 12-tone Western scale) as opposed to any number of other potential sets of rules (we needn't list them all) randomly?

[GDP]

Frankly, I think the whole concept of being "born with" perfect pitch is flawed on its face.

 

How in the world would someone be "born with" an instant and perfect tone relationship understanding of the Western 12-note scale?

 

Sorry, but conditioning is the only way to make that happen.

 

 

I don't think so, that's the whole thing with "perfect pitch"....it's not relational and has nothing to do with a Western tonality or any other. Perfect pitch is simply being able to determine the accuracy of a given frequency.

 

Once you are into sensing and identifying the relationship between frequencies and musical intervals, now your are into a learned skill....relative pitch.

[Cygnus64]

I agree, therefore it's something that is, and can be, learned.

 

Darren

 

 

I've never met anyone who has "learned" it. I work with a LOT of musicians. When most people do I gig there are 4-5 guys, when I do one there are often 90. Never met one. Going back to the color-blind analogy: I've never heard of a color-blind person that was "cured", although I don't know much about it.

 

Sorry, but conditioning is the only way to make that happen.

 

Conditioning is the only way to express it. One has to be able to translate what's in the head to a musical terminology. Only those who have at least a minimal amount of training, even a music class in 3rd grade, will be able to express in language what the notes are.

[iLaw]

Guys, this is all known territory. Yes, absolute pitch is learned; it is always learned. Certain genetic makeup may help, just like certain people have a greater of lesser ability to discern subtle color differences.

 

The trouble is, it needs to be learned during your language acquisition phase. You needed to be learning what a Bb is around the time you were learning what blue is. If you're old enough to be typing on this forum, research shows you're probably too old. Start by just reading the stuff I posted earlier:

 

"We conclude that the potential to acquire absolute pitch is universally present at birth, and that it can be realized by enabling the infant to associate pitches with verbal labels during the critical period for speech acquisition."

 

Larry.

 

 

[Cygnus64]

Guys, this is all known territory. Yes, absolute pitch is learned; it is always learned. Certain genetic makeup may help, just like certain people have a greater of lesser ability to discern subtle color differences.

 

The trouble is, it needs to be learned during your language acquisition phase. You needed to be learning what a Bb is around the time you were learning what blue is. If you're old enough to be typing on this forum, research shows you're probably too old. Start by just reading the stuff I posted earlier:

 

"We conclude that the potential to acquire absolute pitch is universally present at birth, and that it can be realized by enabling the infant to associate pitches with verbal labels during the critical period for speech acquisition."

 

Larry.

 

 

Larry, There's a certain degree of semantics and chicken/egg debate here. I've read plenty about it, some that makes perfect sense and some that I think the researchers have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. I'm hardly a scientist and don't profess to be an expert on any of this, but I have one thing going for me: I have perfect pitch.

 

You needed to be learning what a Bb is around the time you were learning what blue is.

 

Wasn't my experience at all. I didn't touch a musical instrument til the 3rd grade, I didn't come from a musical family.

[Joe Muscara]

Did you have any musical instruments in the house that were played by anyone?

[dazzjazz]

Arrrghh I wish I hadn't written my OP now.

Talk about thread hijacking.

 

There's a couple of guys here in Sydney that HAVE done the PP Course and HAVE developed PP - so there!

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

I think we're having an interesting discussion. I am also interested to know if anyone has had success with this or any other absolute/perfect pitch course, though.

[The Real MC]

I took that course and I now have perfect pitch because when I throw the accordian in the dumpster it lands square on the banjo

 

If there were an award for longest running advertisement, David Burge would take it. His ads have been running in keyboard mag for 25+ years!!!

[iLaw]

There's a couple of guys here in Sydney that HAVE done the PP Course and HAVE developed PP - so there!

Well, there you go then. Answered your own question!

 

Larry.

 

[Cygnus64]

Arrrghh I wish I hadn't written my OP now.

Talk about thread hijacking.

 

 

 

Honestly, you can probably learn more about PP from this thread than you can from the Burge Book, so if anything you've saved some $$. I'm not seeing how this is thread hijacking, we're talking in depth about a subject you assumedly wanted to learn about. If you think a book written by a snake oil salesman is going to give some miraculous gift of absolute pitch, it won't. If anything, this thread might encourage people to study ear training and theory, which is far more important than trying to go after some magical, elusive goal.

 

T

here's a couple of guys here in Sydney that HAVE done the PP Course and HAVE developed PP - so there!

 

I would love it if you asked them to sign up for this forum and join the discussion.

 

For the record: PP people love to test other PP people, it's like a lil club. I've met about 60 people who have said they have perfect pitch. In reality, maybe 20 of them actually had perfect pitch. A simple test would be this:

 

1. Name this note (sing a note)

2. Ask the person to sing a note

3. Sing "Yesterday" or some other famous tune like a TV theme, in it's original key.

 

I met one strange dude who said he had it, and I swear he was tone deaf. He was off by a fifth.

[Bobadohshe]

I met one strange dude who said he had it, and I swear he was tone deaf. He was off by a fifth.

 

Maybe he had a dominant personality.

[JeffLearman]

Frankly, I think the whole concept of being "born with" perfect pitch is flawed on its face.

 

How in the world would someone be "born with" an instant and perfect tone relationship understanding of the Western 12-note scale?

 

Sorry, but conditioning is the only way to make that happen.

I agree with Cygnus's response to this above. There's a huge difference between being able to discriminate and being able to name what you're discriminating. The 12-tone scale thing is about naming (classification), not discriminating.

 

Of course, there are schools of philosophy who believe that *everything* is subjective, language-based, and that nothing mental is inherent (insinctive) -- the "blank slate" or "tabula rasa" school. I think that school is fulla crap, and there's plenty of good experimental evidence to refute it, but nonetheless many who were educated in the mid-to-late 20th century cling to it.

[JeffLearman]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you could train yourself to be able to identify pitches absolutely, but I doubt that what you'd experience would be much like what a person born with absolute pitch experiences.

 

I also am not surprised to hear that there's no scientific evidence showing that any of these training systems work.

 

In any case, I doubt it's a particularly useful skill, in general. The closest I've come is that when I restring my guitar I can get low E correct within a handful of beats. But I know it's not absolute pitch; it's more being used to my own instrument, and I probably use timbre more than pitch to hone it in.

 

I can also often tell what key a pop piano piece is in, but again it's more due to timbre and voicing than perfect pitch. When I work out a new tune, it's *usually* in the right key, but for the abovementioned reasons. When I recall a song in memory, it's *usually* close to the original pitch. At the blues jams, I usually don't have to watch the guitarists to know what key we're in.

 

But it's nothing like Cygnus reports. I found his points very interesting and illuminating, and making it painfully clear what I already knew anyway -- I don't have it! How I knew: there are some songs I taught myself long ago that I happened to unknowingly get in the wrong key to begin with, but when I hear that tune on the radio, it doesn't sound wrong. And sometimes a tune I've played for decades, I find I learned in the wrong key to my complete surprise.

[JeffLearman]

I met one strange dude who said he had it, and I swear he was tone deaf. He was off by a fifth.

 

Maybe he had a dominant personality.

HAHA! or maybe he'd consumed a 5th ...

[Cygnus64]

I met one strange dude who said he had it, and I swear he was tone deaf. He was off by a fifth.

 

Maybe he had a dominant personality.

 

I haven't seen him since high school times. Last I heard he was writing some book or something. Changed his name too, it's like Dave Burke or Burge or something.

[stillplaying]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you could train yourself to be able to identify pitches absolutely, but I doubt that what you'd experience would be much like what a person born with absolute pitch experiences.

 

 

Yes - and you mention how many guitar players can do their low E or A string. I was going to say I played trombone for ten years but the truth is struggled to make a good noise with a trombone for ten years. I could hum Bb and F correctly after a few years - memory rather than perfect pitch.

 

Can't do it now.

[offnote]

Frankly, I think the whole concept of being "born with" perfect pitch is flawed on its face.

 

How in the world would someone be "born with" an instant and perfect tone relationship understanding of the Western 12-note scale?

 

Sorry, but conditioning is the only way to make that happen.

 

exactly right, but we really all were born with ability to get "perfect pitch". Just most of us lost it along the way.

This is just a matter how we listen to the sounds.

 

p.s.

yes you can get it back though with mind training.