David Burge Perfect Pitch Course

[SK]

I'm not that far into the course, but given the drills so far, I believe that the answer to both your questions is 'yes'.

 

dazzjazz, a question if you know the answer: Does this program claim to teach the ability to recognize more than one note at a time, and if so, does it teach to recognize the sounds of chords by their individual notes? There's actually a purpose to my question, thanks.

dazzjazz, thanks, and the reason for my question is about how musically applicable a legit PP course would actually be.

 

We know the notes in a given chord, but over time we respond to them as a single sound. Chords are like words and we don't focus on the spelling of them when we're talking.

 

So assuming the goal of the course is better musicianship, IF the course teaches chord recognition by sorting individual notes, I'd be a little more musically suspicious of it. It may be somewhat musically counter intuitive.

 

Perfect pitch is a wonderful GPS system, but we gotta put the car in Relative Pitch to get it down the road.

 

But I do wish you luck with this program and interested to hear if you have results.

[JeffLearman]

BTW, there is one kind of absolute pitch that's a burden, which is caused by tinnitus of a low enough note that the pitch is obvious, and which provides a constant reference tone in one's head. It's obviously not the kind that Cygnus and Steve have. These people can be trained to detect pitch absolutely. It can cause serious annoyance depending on whether the internal reference note is consonant or dissonant with what's being played, or the standard music system in general.

 

For Cygnus and Steve: how is it for you when playing a piano in good tune but not at concert pitch, or listening to a guitarist playing a guitar that's well tuned but say 50 cents off? Is it something you simply notice, or is it very annoying?

[JeffLearman]

In any case, we do not all innately hear alike, just as we do not all innately see alike, or read alike. Most of us work pretty much the same way, but there are a number of special cases, and trying to force all into the same mould is a mistake.

 

That mistake is commonly made by those who believe that we are all alike and all a blank slate on which experience writes. There's pretty good evidence that while we *are* that way for many things, we aren't that way for a lot of things.

 

[d halfnote]

... When I was still in LexKY I asked a visiting Chinese musician abt it & he seemed unable to even understand what I meant so I have no direct evidence to turn in but I would suggest that's not even necessary.

Consider this: if the exact pitch were vital, how would a very young child, with a certain vocal range, be able to pronounce the same word as an adult male, with his deeper range ?

And yet Diana Deutsch found the incidence of absolute pitch at the Central Conservatory of Music in Beijing (CCOM in the chart below) far higher than the incidence at the Eastman School of Music (ESM in the chart below), which was already far higher than the 0.01% incidence that is commonly reported for the general population:

 

http://www.aip.org/148th/east_beij_no_semi_nol.jpg

 

Larry.

Consider the points I mentioned earlier re: vocal range of speakers & the diacritical effect of these pitch inflections on sung words...what are we to make of those practical indications that this is an example of relative pitch ?

Perhaps that overall these cultures may be more atuned to pitch & therefore have a higher incidence of AP ?

[Cygnus64]

For Cygnus and Steve: how is it for you when playing a piano in good tune but not at concert pitch, or listening to a guitarist playing a guitar that's well tuned but say 50 cents off? Is it something you simply notice, or is it very annoying?

 

For me, it's nothing. Every week =different A. Last week was symphony- tune high. This week is baroque with organ-tune to whatever the organ is at. Next week- different baroque group, different organ. Some of those haven't been worked on in decades.

 

Europe tunes to 443 in orchestras. This means people will tune to 445, seriously. Organs, pianos, and oboes are responsible for tuning notes, and you take what you can get. The oboe A in the US will be anywhere from 437 to 446 depending on who blows it. Not much I can do except to adapt.

[spacedout]

BTW, there is one kind of absolute pitch that's a burden, which is caused by tinnitus of a low enough note that the pitch is obvious, and which provides a constant reference tone in one's head. It's obviously not the kind that Cygnus and Steve have. These people can be trained to detect pitch absolutely.

 

I'm actually in the middle of going through another ear-training course, called Pure Pitch I think, which uses this kind of principle. It works by teaching you to recognise a couple of notes, first C and later G, and simultaneously training the ear in relative pitch. The idea is that you hear any note and reference it to one of those, using relative pitch to determine the absolute pitch of the heard note. I thought that was the same as having perfect pitch, until I read the posts by Cygnus and Steve Nathan in this thread and realised what perfect pitch actually means. I've actually been able to sing a C note for longer than I can remember, but that's about as far as my talents in that direction lie at the moment. I can recognise intervals much more easily now though.

 

As for how successful I've been with this course so far: not very, but I attribute that mostly to my laziness and inconsistency as far as keeping up with the exercises goes. I do one a day, which seems to be averaging out at around two a week at present Like I said, it has already improved my RP though.

[dazzjazz]

UPDATE:

 

I spoke with one of the Sydney musicians I mentioned who developed Perfect Pitch using DB's course. He said he'd done the course about 20 years ago (it was on cassette!) and said yes it does work.

He also said that it was probably time to do the drills again as a refresher. Perhaps this is because he hears about 6 out of 12 tones very clearly, the rest less so. The course took him 6 months or so.

 

This guy transcribes big band recordings...no mean feat!

 

Darren

[MuzikTeechur]

IMHO, the definition of "Perfect Pitch" is the ability, without any prior pitch reference in the past hour or so, be able to hear a single pitch and identify it.

OR, be tasked with singing a certain pitch without any warm-up beforehand.

OR, driving along, hear a song on the radio, and "know" it's in a certain key, again, without any prior pitch reference.

 

If you've been singing a song, and then are asked to sing, say the fifth scale degree (^5), and can do so, then you have good tonal memory. This is what they teach in solfege/sight singing/ear training courses in college and elsewhere.

 

Someone else said that it is absurd to think that someone could be born knowing the Western 12-tone scale. It's an arbitrary human construct. What happens if that person were born in some region where they use different scale constructs (pentatonics, etc.), or different tunings (i.e. A=438)? I agree with that other person. It is a learned behavior.

 

That said, a person can be more predisposed to hearing tones and identifying them, but only after having some foundation, usually at a young age. I grew up in a household where there were upwards of 30 piano lessons given every week. I had very good tonal memory from a young age because I had no choice in the matter.

HOWEVER - my ability to sing a note (I can "hear" the pitch G in my mind, and can then find another note from that) only developed after the advent of CD technology where there was finally an industry standard for tuning of electronic playback devices. Kenwood, for years, was famous for running the motors in their tape decks WAY faster than others and my car tape deck used to drive me absolutely bonkers because nothing sounded right (everything sounded "sharp" to me, but I didn't know why).

About the time CD's became the standard, I was in my early "Oscar" phase. I listened his "Night Train" album ad nauseum. C-Jam Blues starts with that repeated "G", and if I close my eyes and think for a moment, 95% of the time I can "hear" that G and extrapolate any other pitch from it. It's not "perfect" but it works for me. It happened by accident, and if I didn't have it I'd just find the note on the piano or some other pitch reference.

 

The ability to "match pitch" is far more valuable (and necessary) than having perfect pitch. You don't need a course for that - just sit at your piano, start plunking notes, and try to sing them!

[Griffinator]

The ability to "match pitch" is far more valuable (and necessary) than having perfect pitch. You don't need a course for that - just sit at your piano, start plunking notes, and try to sing them!

 

Actually, there is a much easier way to go about "matching" pitch. Drilling on intervals, using associative memory for those intervals (example: Minor 2nd = "Jaws", Perfect 5th = "Star Wars", etc.) will advance your relative pitch skills faster than strict drill-down. I've found it also to be extremely helpful when dissecting and replicating complicated vocal harmony as well.

[Steve Nathan]

It is a learned behavior.

 

Well, I say you either got it or you don't, and you either "get" it or you don't. If you have it, you are born with a condition that you then adapt to whatever conventions you are surrounded by, whether 12 tones in the US or micro-tonal somewhere else. Note naming is the result not the core.

[Griffinator]

It is a learned behavior.

 

Well, I say you either got it or you don't, and you either "get" it or you don't.

 

That's pretty arrogant, considering a lack of anything more than anecdotal evidence.

[Cygnus64]

It is a learned behavior.

 

Well, I say you either got it or you don't, and you either "get" it or you don't.

 

Steve, a question for you: How is your "regular" memory? Do you have a killer memory in addition to PP (I do)?

[Cygnus64]

It is a learned behavior.

 

Well, I say you either got it or you don't, and you either "get" it or you don't.

 

That's pretty arrogant, considering a lack of anything more than anecdotal evidence.

 

It's not arrogant, it's the gospel truth from someone who actually has it. Steve's analogy earlier was spot on, there's a certain "Rain Man" quality to it. Someone outside my door is moving the lawn right now, and it fluctuates between Bb and C depending on how close he comes. That's not learned, I didn't go to school and listen to lawnmower pitches all day. My mailman slams my mailbox at F#. True bona fide PP is freakshow stuff, it's like Tony in "The Shining" living inside that lil boy's head, but instead of showing you pictures of dead twins, he tells you the pitches of every single noise known to man.

[Ken Beaumont]

I recently saw a PBS special on this very same subject. People who are exposed to playing music at a very young age develop the ability. Using an MRI they showed how a certain area of the brain rewired and the subject had developed active synapses in areas mostly dormant to non musicians. The degree of perfect pitch was proportional to how young they were when they started music. The show also said that some were gifted naturally with it. But that it was like language, if you were not exposed to music by a certain age you never developed it to the fullest.

So perfect pitch is a little of both, genetic and developed. Just like language, which is why it is better for a person to learn a second language early like starting at age 3.

[offnote]

It is a learned behavior.

 

Well, I say you either got it or you don't, and you either "get" it or you don't. If you have it, you are born with a condition that you then adapt to whatever conventions you are surrounded by, whether 12 tones in the US or micro-tonal somewhere else. Note naming is the result not the core.

 

that's a common myth you have some "pitchy" gene you are born with. We all are born and have the open source (minded) ability to hear and see in full spectrum.

Unfortunately most people grow up and learn to perceived the world intellectually instead of natural, childish like way.

Another words you don't have to learn "perfect pitch", you just have to unlearn analytical way of hearing, that's all.

 

[MAJUSCULE]

I recently saw a PBS special on this very same subject. People who are exposed to playing music at a very young age develop the ability. Using an MRI they showed how a certain area of the brain rewired and the subject had developed active synapses in areas mostly dormant to non musicians. The degree of perfect pitch was proportional to how young they were when they started music. The show also said that some were gifted naturally with it. But that it was like language, if you were not exposed to music by a certain age you never developed it to the fullest.

So perfect pitch is a little of both, genetic and developed. Just like language, which is why it is better for a person to learn a second language early like starting at age 3.

 

This makes sense to me. I remember seeing a documentary which, although it wasn't about PP, was along these lines. Supposedly, children under a certain age can differentiate animals very clearly. Most orangoutans looks the same to everyone on this forum, but a baby will be able to tell their mood, power status, etc.

 

The human brain is like a field. At first, we have many seeds sprouting. As we further develop motor skills, language, etc., other abilities are left behind to give up space in the brain. PP might be one of those abilities which often finds itself on the bubble.

 

Disclaimer: I'm no biologist.

[Emeritus]

On Burge's Perfect Pitch course: I purchased it and returned it for a refund after a week. Two problems: I couldn't stand Burge's voice. Furthermore, 90% of the disks I listened to were shaggy dog stories with no informational content. Listening to Burge was painful. Secondly, no information was provided to aid the listener in distinguishing notes, save for one hint--that regarding the grating sound of F sharp. There may have been an additional half a hint regarding B. His advice was to find the tone colors yourself. I believe it would have been helpful to have known what tone colors others perceive, even if these may not apply in your own case.

On perfect pitch in general: I experience something subliminal regarding pitch. On one occasion someone played a note on a piano and asked if I could identify it. After stewing a bit I admitted defeat. A few minutes and a distraction later I strode to the piano, named the note, and confidently played it. If I use the transpose function on my keyboard, it is almost unbearable to listen to what I am playing. This leads me to believe that, at least in my case, there is brain recognition of pitch differences, but a disconnect with respect to retrieval of tone labels.

[Steve Nathan]

That's pretty arrogant, considering a lack of anything more than anecdotal evidence.

 

On the other hand, I find people without PP telling me that I don't understand what it really is, to be laughably arrogant. Also people who enter discussions like these with their minds already made up. I am however puzzled at how frequently I find musicians steamed up in denial of the existence of PP, as if music were some sort of competition. No one has leveled PP at you like a hand grenade, challenging your worthiness. Of the dozens of musicians I work with week in and week out, only 3 or 4 have PP. Several more have well developed senses of AP, and most have neither. None are lesser musicians because of having or not having any of it. It simply exists.

Humans are born with all manner of different tendencies and talents. With enough practice, anyone can learn to dance, paint or hit a ball, but every child is not born with the identical "source code" to be a dancer, painter or athlete.

I was born with something that contributed to my interest in music, and made learning to play "by ear" much easier than learning to "read". My childhood friend Charles Bornstein was a child prodigy and a brilliantly impressive pianist from a very young age. He however, could not play anything that was not written on a page in front of him. We were each in awe of the other's ability. (I was blown away by the photos of him at age 11 with Leonard Bernstein, and he felt the same about my pics at 12 with Ray Charles).

Lighten up folks. Most of the world's great musicians do not have PP. It does not make me or Cygnus better than anyone else. It is just a curious difference.

 

BTW Cygnus,

I used to have a pretty remarkable memory for numbers. I could recall all sorts of insignificant numbers instantly. Phone numbers of people I hadn't called in 25 years, combinations to high school lockers, stuff like that. It has, I sorry to say begun to lose power as I've reached geezerdom, although yesterday I wanted to call the credit union I got my 1st Nashville mortgage from (20 years ago) and their phone# popped into my head instantly!

The rest of my memory has always been pretty lousy, especially names, which I believe is because I've always had a tendency to stay deep "in my head" and have trouble paying attention to whatever is going on around me.

[Griffinator]

The part I referred to as "arrogant", Steve, and maybe I misread it, was the insinuation that you either "get it" or don't, as if to say that people who aren't necessarily convinced that PP is a genetic thing are somehow clueless...

 

The post you just dropped did nothing to convince me that I misread it, just for the record.

[J. Dan]

The rest of my memory has always been pretty lousy, especially names, which I believe is because I've always had a tendency to stay deep "in my head" and have trouble paying attention to whatever is going on around me.

 

I heard a guy on the radio th other day who wrote a book about improving your memory and enters memory competitions (he learned this skill, was not born with it). He said if somebody introduces you to Mr. Baker, you'll likely forget his name. If someone tells you he's a Baker (his profession), you're FAR more likely to remember that. He said the key is to relate their name to something about them, so it's not just a name.

[bourniplus]

On Burge's Perfect Pitch course: I purchased it and returned it for a refund after a week.

The main reason: I couldn't stand the guy's voice: he always spoke in B flat.

 

(Edit: I haven't really purchased it, I was just inspired by Emeritus' post for this delightful joke...)

[dazzjazz]

I'll admit - his voice is annoying.

The whole course could have been condensed into two CDs I think.

[JpScoey]

Several more have well developed senses of AP, and most have neither.

 

None are lesser musicians because of having or not having any of it

 

Probably the most sensible thing said in this thread.

[offnote]

On the other hand, I find people without PP telling me that I don't understand what it really is, to be laughably arrogant.

 

right, but just because you have something doesn't implicate you have to understand this.

[Steve Nathan]

The part I referred to as "arrogant", Steve, and maybe I misread it, was the insinuation that you either "get it" or don't, as if to say that people who aren't necessarily convinced that PP is a genetic thing are somehow clueless...

 

In my experience most people, from full bore skeptics to those completely sure it is real simply do not understand it. Even among the most convinced, the focus is nearly universally on "note naming". That's all anyone ever talks about. Can we really "name notes", did we get some clue that tipped us off so we can "name notes", have we practiced harder or memorized discrete anomalies that enable us to "name notes". Have we perfected some skill that anyone who makes the effort can develop and "name notes"

Naming notes is a single, not particularly significant oak tree in the forest that has been inappropriately labeled, Perfect Pitch.

I said if you don't have it you likely don't get it because that's what my 60 years of observation has shown me time and time again. If that makes me arrogant, then I'm arrogant.

 

[JeffLearman]

that's a common myth you have some "pitchy" gene you are born with. We all are born and have the open source (minded) ability to hear and see in full spectrum.

Can you back that up?

[SK]

This thread is teetering on the edge of the difficult questions about talent: how we explain or justify it - how much we attribute to what is learned, what is instinctive or what is referred to as a gift.

 

Everyone's experience is different. We all can learn new things, and a latent talent can be brought out and developed, and 'results may vary'... but I always accept there are some things beyond explanation, understanding or our control.

[Griffinator]

The part I referred to as "arrogant", Steve, and maybe I misread it, was the insinuation that you either "get it" or don't, as if to say that people who aren't necessarily convinced that PP is a genetic thing are somehow clueless...

 

In my experience most people, from full bore skeptics to those completely sure it is real simply do not understand it. Even among the most convinced, the focus is nearly universally on "note naming". That's all anyone ever talks about. Can we really "name notes", did we get some clue that tipped us off so we can "name notes", have we practiced harder or memorized discrete anomalies that enable us to "name notes". Have we perfected some skill that anyone who makes the effort can develop and "name notes"

Naming notes is a single, not particularly significant oak tree in the forest that has been inappropriately labeled, Perfect Pitch.

I said if you don't have it you likely don't get it because that's what my 60 years of observation has shown me time and time again. If that makes me arrogant, then I'm arrogant.

 

Well, FWIW, I really have no idea how much of "it" I have. I know finding pitch has always come easy to me, and "relative" pitch training was a breeze, but I couldn't tell you what note my computer's (rather loud) CPU fan was emitting right now, probably because I just don't give a shit enough to care.

 

The flip side of that, of course, is that I started on piano shortly after I was finished potty training, so I don't know how much is upbringing versus "innate" ability.

[offnote]

Everyone's experience is different. We all can learn new things, and a latent talent can be brought out and developed, and 'results may vary'... but I always accept there are some things beyond explanation, understanding or our control.

 

bingo

[David Loving]

And another bingo/+1 to SK. I am better off practicing scales than worrying about perfect pitch and where talent comes from. I am grateful that I may have a little talent and that I can play some.