baby grand or not?

[rockkeys]

To all the pianists out there....would you sell a 5 year old yamaha c1 baby grand (5"3) and buy a used top of the line upright? Upright depreciation is steep. Someone offered me $8500 for the grand. For that price I could get something decent in an upright....but there is something about practicing on a real grand that lends itself to the development of a certain technique....please let me know your opinions.

[GDP]

Are you asking a business question (you mentioned depreciation), or an artist question (quality of instrument and technique)?

[Bobadohshe]

take $8500 for a 5'3" grand absolutely. Turn around and spend it on a piano 3 times as old but longer.

[Michael W]

I can only tell you that when I was piano shopping, I found that the better 52" uprights sounded much better than smaller grands. I purchased a Yamaha U3 upright, and it rocks.

[rockkeys]

take $8500 for a 5'3" grand absolutely. Turn around and spend it on a piano 3 times as old but longer.

Yeah, still undecided....the c1 really has great action. Not sure how good the action will be on an older upright, even if the strings are longer.

[Kelly Gibson]

Good uprights are nice. From my experience, they don't compete with a quality small grand concerning their action or sound. YMMV.

[rockkeys]

I agree. I think I'll keep my grand. It really is a baby in that it was brand new when I bought it. The action is superb. Thanks.

[Moonglow]

Sorry for the side-bar, but what is the "cutoff length" for a baby grand vs. grand? Stated another way, at what length does a baby grand become a grand?

[jimmymio]

Sorry for the side-bar, but what is the "cutoff length" for a baby grand vs. grand? Stated another way, at what length does a baby grand become a grand?

 

I've been wondering this myself. I've been itching to upgrade from my small Yammie upright to a 6'grand. Is this large enough to justify the very large upgrade cost?

[JeffLearman]

I'd take the $5800, save up a few bucks and get a used C2 (5'8"). The difference between the two is dramatic. Of course, the 6'2" C3 is even better, pretty much my favorite piano. I've also played G's that are lovely in that same size range as the C2/C3.

 

Below 5'6" I'd generally take a pass.

 

Yamaha started making really fine pianos in the mid to late 70's, IIRC, and as long as a piano isn't abused or exposed to bad conditions, age shouldn't harm it.

 

Of course, to have a big piano, you need the right space for it. They don't sound good in a small room especially with a low ceiling. Uprights seem to fare better in that case. I suppose you can compensate with room treatments, though.

[Joe Muscara]

Sorry for the side-bar, but what is the "cutoff length" for a baby grand vs. grand? Stated another way, at what length does a baby grand become a grand?

"Although there is no exact definition, a small grand is generally one less than about 5 1/2' long." - Source

 

Also, here's some pros and cons of verticals vs. grands from the same source.

[gryphon]

Sorry for the side-bar, but what is the "cutoff length" for a baby grand vs. grand?

There is no such thing as a baby grand, even though people use the term. There are uprights and grands, specified in length. Period. A C1 is a 5'3" grand. I've heard people say any grand less than 9' concert length is a baby grand. Some people say intermediate size grands are parlor grands. It's all nonsense and only adds confusion.

 

If someone offers the OP $8.5K for his C1, he should sell it as quick as possible before the other guy changes his mind.

[rockkeys]

Sorry for the side-bar, but what is the "cutoff length" for a baby grand vs. grand?

There is no such thing as a baby grand, even though people use the term. There are uprights and grands, specified in length. Period. A C1 is a 5'3" grand. I've heard people say any grand less than 9' concert length is a baby grand. Some people say intermediate size grands are parlor grands. It's all nonsense and only adds confusion.

 

If someone offers the OP $8.5K for his C1, he should sell it as quick as possible before the other guy changes his mind.

So you agree that a U3 or equivalent length upright is superior?

[Joe Muscara]

coolio - see my post and the second link for pros and cons of verticals vs. grands. Read the other pages there for more details about each type of piano. I would stick with the grand myself.

[VegasGT3]

In this market, if you can sell the C1 for $8,500 take it! Buy a 5"8 used grand for about $4-5,000 and pocket the difference.

[David Loving]

Keep the grand - spend money on fixing it up. A well maintained Yamaha grand is not going to be a losing proposition. You'll like its action better than an upright. I am trying to buy an upright - lobbying the household CFO/spouse. If I had room I'd buy a grand, but I do not have the room. "Vertical pianos are suitable for those with simpler musical needs, or where budget and space constraints preclude buying a grand." [Larry Fine article] The way I look at it, if an upright was good enough for Professor Longhair and the Blue Note players, it's good enough for me. My "simpler musical needs" kind of style is more upright than grand, I guess. I don't really need that faster return action. The Larry Fine article posted by Joe M, above, is the best source of information on pianos on the planet.

[Song80s]

beware of grey market U3's in the US.

 

I got burned by one. Would not stay in tune.

[stillplaying]

In this market, if you can sell the C1 for $8,500 take it! Buy a 5"8 used grand for about $4-5,000 and pocket the difference.

 

Coolio - not sure what prices are like where you are. I'm totally with VegasGT3 on this one.

 

BTW - I've only played on grands, never had cash/space for one at home. I do see the prices going here down the road from me in what the Scots called the Central Belt - basically the bit running from Edinburgh across the Glasgow. That's a great price you've been offered.

 

Good luck getting a cracking acoustic whatever you decide to buy (if you sell).

[drawback]

They're practically giving away small grands in my Craigslist area.

 

I'm only assuming, but if you bought it new 5 years ago, it would have cost you between $23 - $25,000 (before tax).... and now it's worth about 1/3 of that? And that's better than depreciation on an upright? Yikes.

 

Take the $8500 and run, but make sure you get something you can live with because whatever you buy it's going to be worth a pittance to anyone but yourself down the road.

 

I'd suggest a larger grand - preferably a good used 6-footer. Anything less and you don't get the optimal length for bass strings.

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

I'd suggest a larger grand - preferably a good used 6-footer. Anything less and you don't get the optimal length for bass strings.

 

Not to sound like a "piano snob", but I really like to try and stay above 6'.

To my ears, not only the bass registers, but also the middle and higher registers, don't have the same sustain or "singing quality" as with a 6' + piano.

 

I've seen quite a few C3s and comparable 6' Kawais on the LA CL for 8-12K.

In this market I would think you'd be able to negotiate a very good price on anything in that price range.

 

The hotel in Bev Hills, where I've been doing my Thurs. night steady, has had a brand new C3 the last 8 weeks. Last night I got there and it shrunk...it was C1.

Big difference in the sound, I was working almost twice as hard to get the sound on it to project over the bass & drums. My hands were actually aching a bit from playing it too hard trying to over compensate.

 

If you have the room, I'd take the $8500, turn around and see what I could get in the 6' range.

[Joe Muscara]

My piano is smaller than 6'. I wish it weren't, but it was free and in otherwise good condition.

 

That being said, if I were to buy a piano, it would be at least in the 6' (you'll find some are slightly smaller and some slightly larger by as much as a few inches). You have to use your ears to decide if 5'7" or whatever it is is too small.

 

I would make the 6' range recommendation to anyone unless a) space is a consideration, or 2) they're really not playing the instrument much and they can save some money.

[rockkeys]

Thanks for all of the responses.....I've decided to keep it rather than go through the agro of buying used.

[Joe Muscara]

I can understand that. Buying a used piano takes a lot of patience, knowledge, and help once you get down to the finalists.

 

That being said, used costs MUCH less than new, sort of like a car, but unlike a car, doesn't quite have the worry of buying a lemon if you do it right. (Well, if you buy a used car the right way, you should be okay too, but I think it's easier to tell with a piano.)

[Steveaudio]

I don't know the current values, but $8500 for a yamaha c1 sounds like a lot of $$. However:

 

I played a yamaha G1 in a huge restaurant/bar for a couple of years. That was a sweet piano; I had no problems with it. Then I played a 5'1" steinway S in another large restaurant/bar for a few years, it sounded great, but the action was so difficult I had wrist problems.

 

I've also owned a 6 ft. yamaha G3 for almost 30 years. Very nice piano. If you could sell your C1 & get a G3 or C3 for about the same $$ that could be a good move. Unless you could buy a yamaha C7, now that would be something to aspire to.

 

2 points: 1. IMO, a move from a grand to an upright is usually a backwards move, Unless you're selling a mediocre grand for a really nice upright.

 

And 2. The term "baby grand" is usually something civilians, who know nothing about pianos, use. I've looked at a lot of houses & apts over the years, & when I mention I have a grand piano that I need space for, every single realtor responds: "oh, is it a baby grand"? When I say that it's 6 ft., they get very confused. But apparently every kind of piano to them is a "baby grand"......

[rockkeys]

I bought the piano for one reason: to practice on. I agree that 5'3 is a bit short for recording, but where space is limited, and sound projection is an issue (I converted my garage into a studio, but it sits near my neighbours) the C1 is perfect. Granted, $8500 is alot, but I dropped $17,000 when I bought it brand new. The action of any C series grand is pretty sweet. Any recordings I do in my studio, I use Ivory via my cp-300. I'm happy....which is rare when you suffer from the kind of gear disease I have....

[gryphon]

where space is limited, and sound projection is an issue

It is a misconception to think that a 6'3" piano is louder than a 5'3" piano. It just sounds 10x better. And the thing is, Yamaha pianos are so overpriced you could have actually gotten a better quality 6'3" grand for the same money.

 

Also, for some reason, people think a piano a few inches longer will cause them to have to buy a larger house. Walk to the tail end of your piano and hold your hand out, stretched thumb tip to little finger tip. See?

 

Water under the bridge, now. Unless...

[Jim Alfredson]

The beauty (and frustration) of pianos is that every one is different. I have a 5'5" 1913 AB Chase grand that blows away most grand pianos under 6'3" in terms of pure tone. It sounds BIG with full bass all the way down to A0. And it has the original strings and hammers on it. When I replace both, it's going to be an amazing piano. That's just pure high-quality workmanship and design.

 

In my opinion, Yamahas are not overpriced. They are (in general) a joy to tune, stay in tune longer, and are very well-made pianos. And they sound great, too. I love Yamahas.

 

[rockkeys]

It is a misconception to think that a 6'3" piano is louder than a 5'3" piano. It just sounds 10x better.

 

Also, for some reason, people think a piano a few inches longer will cause them to have to buy a larger house.

[rockkeys]

 

In my opinion, Yamahas are not overpriced. They are (in general) a joy to tune, stay in tune longer, and are very well-made pianos. And they sound great, too. I love Yamahas.

 

 

This is exactly the reason why almost all of the world's major studios, concert halls, jazz festivals, have yamahas. They stay in tune and they sound consistent from piano to piano.

[gryphon]

Well, I started to reply to cool and the gang's post that said I was full of shit (he didn't state it that way, but he told me I didn't understand physics) but he deleted it. Coolio, I actually have a working knowledge of physics as I am an engineer by profession who can do calculus-based physics in my sleep. Although I don't profess to be an expert on sound or piano construction, I defer to those who have made that their life's work.

 

They tell me that the string length and area of a soundboard has practically nothing to do with the sound pressure level of a piano. A larger piano (within reason) is not louder than a smaller piano. This has been measured over and over. Now if you are comparing a 9' concert grand with a C1 you will see a slight difference.

 

I can post data.

 

Yet you tell me I don't understand physics.

 

Perhaps when you complain that your piano is too loud it is not the absolute acoustical power level you are referring to but the shape of the sound envelopethe abruptness of the tone through the first few milliseconds following hammer impact.

 

You bought a Yamaha, known for their unmusical harsh brightness. Yamaha grands have a higher-tension scale, stiff soundboards, and dense, hard hammers. What did you expect?

 

I have never posted a message advocating any piano, but if you look in my sig you'll see I own an Estonia 190 (6'3") grand. For the same price you paid for your C1 you could have bought a piano one foot longer with the same rating as a NY Steinway.

 

It's always amazed me that the pros here are so up on electronics and so behind on acoustics.