The Future of Hammond Clones

[richwhite9]

A few months ago, I was reading one of the MI trade rags when I was sitting in a music store office waiting. It was an article about equipment service and one of the issues was how much better amplifiers are today compared to their ancestors. The guitar amp repair business is a shadow of its former-self.

 

Vintage anything is a rich man's game or at least best enjoyed by a collector who knows what they are in for when it comes to maintenance and preservation.

 

Hammonds didn't survive the Naughts and Leslie's won't survive the Tens except for collectors and large city backline companies. Many studios don't want them. Too much noise and grief. You'd think they were a 70s Diesel Mercedes.

 

Hammonds get shipped overseas and taken to dumps and still there's no shortage of the better models even with the US population increasing 50% from when they were last produced.

 

So with a certain sadness it is the Golden Age of Clonewheels with Nord's C2/E3 and Hammond's XK-1/3C series and the Numa and the Ventilator. Choose your size, weight, and ergonomics and no one in the audience or in a studio much cares.

[vanderSchoot]

Guys check out this link...awsome

 

[Bill H.]

We are getting close and it seems to be nitpicking after awhile because so many guys want that sound they had when they were young. What do you think will happen?

There will come a time when the sound "they" had when they were young won't be a B3 because we'll all be dead. The look and hardware of a B3 in clones will then gradually fade away - as will clones themselves probably. The sound of a B3 /122 will be perfectly replicated in forms we can't even imagine today.

 

Hammond / Suzuki may be able to hang on somehow - carrying on the tradition.

[B3bluesman59]

B3-er said: The most recent being a nice mid-60s B3 at Jazz Alley in Seattle.

_________________________________________________________________

I saw Jimmy Smith at Jazz Alley several times playing that same B3. Jimmy had that Hammond on fire.....

[CrimsonianKing]

We are getting close and it seems to be nitpicking after awhile because so many guys want that sound they had when they were young. What do you think will happen?

There will come a time when the sound "they" had when they were young won't be a B3 because we'll all be dead. The look and hardware of a B3 in clones will then gradually fade away - as will clones themselves probably. The sound of a B3 /122 will be perfectly replicated in forms we can't even imagine today.

 

Hammond / Suzuki may be able to hang on somehow - carrying on the tradition.

 

+1 you said it.

[Jim Alfredson]

B3-er said: The most recent being a nice mid-60s B3 at Jazz Alley in Seattle.

_________________________________________________________________

I saw Jimmy Smith at Jazz Alley several times playing that same B3. Jimmy had that Hammond on fire.....

 

It's a great organ for jazz, especially for kickin' bass. No doubt about it. But for blues, it didn't have enough grit and grunge, imo. That said, I really enjoyed playing it.

[Maestro Dirk]

I'd like to see a new analog organ. DSI, Moog and Rhodes have all started making 21st century analog, why doesn't someone make an analog combo organ? Doesn't have to sound like a b-3, just has to sound good. I'm sick of repairing my old cx-3.which is a killer organ for rockespecially through a ventilator. I know it sounds cliche, but the old analog combos do cut in a mix in a way that is very pleasing to the ear. I've played so many great new clones (in my studio) only to see the opening band using my rig, and hearing the sound in the front of house, and becoming very dismayed by the digital sheen which is still present (though much less with the new crop)

 

I totally agree, but while a 21st century analog organ would sound great it still wouldn't be as sought after as the current crop of clonewheels. I was playing in a garage rock band and there was something about using a Nord Electro 2 that didn't quite sound right in the mix with all tube guitar amps. I even borrowed an Electro 3 from a friend for some sessions, and it was incredible the amount of analog processing we had put on it to feel right against the guitar tracks. I eventually bought a Yamaha YC-20 combo organ and it really did the trick. Not even close to a Hammond by any stretch of the imagination, but it sat right where it needed to in the mix.

 

Now that gig is on indefinite hiatus and I'm back to using my Nord with other bands because it weighs 20 pounds, and it's just not worth the effort to lug the big Yamaha around.

[CEB]

I am currently lusting for a Nord C2 but not for it's Hammond emulations. I like it because of its Farfisa and Vox emulations. I wish the thing had drawbars.

[CrimsonianKing]

I am currently lusting for a Nord C2 but not for it's Hammond emulations. I like it because of its Farfisa and Vox emulations. I wish the thing had drawbars.

 

The E3 has farfisa and vox emulations as well AND is cheaper.

[keyoctave]

One of the things that people do is romance the very best of something that they had affection for at one time; like an ex-girlfriend or boyfriend. After a relationship ends, we tend to remember the good things about the ex. Most of the time, the reason the ex became an ex is because the relationship didnt work in the long run. How often do we miss an ex-spouse?

 

Id say that musicians do the same thing with vintage instruments. But if we put the romance aside for a moment, lets consider some of the not-so-good things about the instruments of old. Heres a few examples:

 

My first Mini Moog that wouldnt stay in tune if it was moved around for gigs. Usually, by the time it stabilized enough to be playable, it was almost time to pack up and leave.

 

Or my first Hammond B-2. It was an older, used organ with no percussion. Like me, it didnt care for cold weather and like most of the old cars in the sixties, it wouldn't turn over after being outside in cold weather for 4 or 5 hours, forget about staying in the equipment truck overnight during the winter. Some players said they liked leakage, I didnt. I chalked it up to a poor design of the time period.

 

The old Leslie cabinets were not designed for high volume rock bands. We had to run the Leslie wide open and floor the pedal most of the time to attempt to keep up with the loud guitar(s) player(s) bass player, and drummer. The overdrive sound was born.

 

Not all was rosy in the old days. A lot of the equipment was unreliable and couldnt handle the extreme temperature changes in the northeastern US where I grew up and still reside.

 

And of course, it didnt just apply to KB instruments. Guitars didnt stay in tune very well compared to todays instruments either. A few months ago, I was reading one of the MI trade rags when I was sitting in a music store office waiting. It was an article about equipment service and one of the issues was how much better amplifiers are today compared to their ancestors. The guitar amp repair business is a shadow of its former-self.

 

These days we can buy a Hammond XK-1 for under $1500 that is light, portable, and has everything most mainstream players can use right of the box.

 

The Nord has the basic palette of B&B sounds KB players use most of the time.

 

You can add to list the other instruments that are out there.

 

Today's instruments are so much more reliable and advanced that the vintage instruments of the past and I for one, would never want to go back. Of course, my ex-girlfriend told me I wasnt very romantic. Go figure.

 

Big +1 from me!

 

I would not want to go back either. I like the curent digital stuff. No, it's not like playing the real thing but I don't miss the heavy Rhodes action, the weight of the B-3, the instability issues, or having to take the rear slats out of my Leslie, turn it around and place it up on a stand just to be heard. You may not have that instrument/sound/feel combination that is romanticized about but you still can get the sound with a choice of actions and feed off that. Plus, you can create your own versions of those sounds.

 

I am excited to see the improvements in Leslie simulation coming on the market. It's the one area of the classic tonewheel sound (to me) that needed the most work.

[MikeT156]

by matt_stubb:

 

So how come your instrument list is mostly vintage?

 

Easy answer. ALL the vintage gear I have I bought brand new. The Rhodes I bought in 1979, it hasn't been moved out of my music room since I moved into my house in 1989, same for the Prophet 5, my Arp Odyssey, and all the other vintage gear.

 

If you've been around here for any amount of time, then you may have read some of my posts. I gig with my Motif ES8, and if I have a gig where I need the Alesis ION, that comes along for the gig. Everything else stays home.

 

I'm talking about what I use to play gigs. Can't beat the digital gear. Turn it on, its in tune and it plays. Try transposing (another sore subject) on the Rhodes or your vintage Hammond. Better practice everything in ALL KEYS.

 

Lazy? You bet. The people that pay me to entertain don't want me screwing around trying to do something on the fly. That's not what they are paying me to do.

 

The people we play for don't care about us having the EXACT same sound as "The record". Play the music, sing your heart out, and entertain the people. That's the gig.

 

I love my vintage instruments. But I would never want to gig with them. I'm to old, too fat, and not in shape. Anyway, why? :idk

 

Nostalgia? There's nothing more nostalgic than ME.

 

Mike T.

[Josh Paxton]

I have this vision of designers and engineers and Nord, Korg, etc. building long-term, and impressively authentic, maintenance problems into their clones. After 6 months the Clav develops that obnoxious release click because the hammers have notches worn into them, the Rhodes has a few broken tines, some of the drawbars on the B3 don't work, the analog samples start drifting all over the place... all in the name of realism for that authentic vintage gear experience, of course.

[clpete]

I am currently lusting for a Nord C2 but not for it's Hammond emulations. I like it because of its Farfisa and Vox emulations. I wish the thing had drawbars.

 

The E3 has farfisa and vox emulations as well AND is cheaper.

Ok, Im sorry but who wants a transistor organ sound anyway. In my opinion if your gonna play an old tune where they used itscrew it use a Hammond sound. Do you need to sound just like the record? Okor is it better to get rid of the cheese and make it sound good. (rant. Rant rant about transistor organsthis might be because I had an Ace Tonebut they all sound like circus music to me.)

 

 

[CEB]

The people producing hits for combo organs could have used Hammond consoles if they wanted. In my opinion, the demise of the combo organ came from synths like Moog and Arp not the Hammond. Transistor organs just worked better in that 60's groovy pyschedelic rock context.

 

I like transistor organs on things like 96 Tears, Doors stuff where Manzerek chose to play a Vox or Gibson, Incense and Peppermints, Paul Revere and the Raiders, I'm a Believer, Midnight Confessions ect.... That stuff just sounds better on a combo organ. The organ melody lines seem written to be around the sound of those instruments. I've played Incense and Peppermints on a Hammond because I had to and it sucked.

[CrimsonianKing]

The people producing hits for combo organs could have used Hammond consoles if they wanted. In my opinion, the demise of the combo organ came from synths like Moog and Arp not the Hammond. Transistor organs just worked better in that 60's groovy pyschedelic rock context.

 

I like transistor organs on things like 96 Tears, Doors stuff where Manzerek chose to play a Vox or Gibson, Incense and Peppermints, Paul Revere and the Raiders, I'm a Believer, Midnight Confessions ect.... That stuff just sounds better on a combo organ. The organ melody lines seem written to be around the sound of those instruments. I've played Incense and Peppermints on a Hammond because I had to and it sucked.

 

Yeah, you can't play the doors and early pink floyd stuff with a hammond, it just doesn't sound quite right. I never owned a vox or farfisa but i had a chance to play both once and the nord does the job IMO, that's one of the reasons i'm getting rid of my NE2 and getting a E3.

 

(By the way, before spending almost 3k on a C2 you should check the E3, you could always add a midi controller as the lower manual)

[Maestro Dirk]

If you were a teenager in the 1960s garage band scene Hammonds were not accessible or logistically feasible so if you wanted to play organ you had to go for a combo. It's a unique sound that defined a certain era of rock & roll, and while they can sound cheesy, they can also sound very psychedelic and weird (Set You Controls for the Heart of the Sun, for example).

 

People continued to use them effectively in the 70s and 80s, as well. Elton John's Crocodile Rock, Elvis Costello, The Cars, etc. As I stated in my above post, I chose a combo organ because it just cut better in the mix. However, the album I recorded which heavily features that sound will probably never see the light of day.

 

 

[CEB]

The people producing hits for combo organs could have used Hammond consoles if they wanted. In my opinion, the demise of the combo organ came from synths like Moog and Arp not the Hammond. Transistor organs just worked better in that 60's groovy pyschedelic rock context.

 

I like transistor organs on things like 96 Tears, Doors stuff where Manzerek chose to play a Vox or Gibson, Incense and Peppermints, Paul Revere and the Raiders, I'm a Believer, Midnight Confessions ect.... That stuff just sounds better on a combo organ. The organ melody lines seem written to be around the sound of those instruments. I've played Incense and Peppermints on a Hammond because I had to and it sucked.

 

Yeah, you can't play the doors and early pink floyd stuff with a hammond, it just doesn't sound quite right. I never owned a vox or farfisa but i had a chance to play both once and the nord does the job IMO, that's one of the reasons i'm getting rid of my NE2 and getting a E3.

 

(By the way, before spending almost 3k on a C2 you should check the E3, you could always add a midi controller as the lower manual)

I liked the C2 because it has a 11 pin leslie socket and 2 manuals. I have a couple of leslies that would plug right into that.

 

The E3 would be the smarter deal for me. The EPs, Clavs and probably even the pianos sound better than my Kawai which I play just for the action.

[CrimsonianKing]

I see. well, then go for it!

[Joe Muscara]

I'm pretty sure Ray played the transistor organ in the Doors stuff because he had to. He mentioned in a Keyboard interview what a big deal it was for him when the band bought him a Hammond later on.

[MikeT156]

by Dirk BVP:

 

If you were a teenager in the 1960s garage band scene Hammonds were not accessible or logistically feasible so if you wanted to play organ you had to go for a combo.

 

Yep. If any of our garage bands actually got some kind of gig, we had to rely on parents cars which hopefully included a station wagon to move the band's equipment. If a garage band managed to stay together long enough, they would pitch in to buy an old panel truck to move their equipment. Back in the mid to late sixties, most of the "teen dances" we put on in old skating rings and even "dance halls" that were once used for big bands concerts in the 1940's. So that meant the band needed a PA system large enough and loud enough to cover a room that big too.

 

One of the groups I was in was fairly successful in our local area and we had a decent (used) equipment truck. I was able to snag an old Hammond B2 and Leslie to move around. We had 3 roadies, plus the band members to move everything. The Hammond was a bigger headache than it was worth. The sound of the organ was fine when it worked, or if anyone other than me could hear it.

 

Combo organs could be a help in terms of weight, by I found the Vox Dual Continental I bought to be unreliable too. The Farfisa sounded like crap, but it always worked. When Farfisa came out with the Professional and it was connected to a Leslie and mic'ed through the PA, at least it could be heard.

 

If I could calculate the $$$ I spent trying to put together a KB rig that sounded great and was reliable, I would probably have the big one. (Heart attack).

 

 

Mike T.

[rockkeys]

I'm an analog/vintage snob who is guilty of 'romanticizing' big time.I have to confess something: I recorded an album with a band.all b-3/122. We did a live radio gig where I used an xk-3c, no ventilatorjust leslie sim and a speakeasy preamp. A couple years later, the live radio concert was on air and I caught it while driving. This was a pretty slick/tight band and for the first 5 minutes I thought it was the studio cut, and I was commenting on how great the b-3 was sounding in the studio that day. Guilty as charged...

[rockkeys]

That being saidthe new clones still have a ways to go when it comes to key-contact. It still does not 'connect' as good as a real organ.

[Meisenhower]

I don't know about of this "trying to be heard" business with a Hammond and Leslie.

 

I played for years with a B3 and two leslies in a variety of musical situations from organ jazz trio to hard rock (lots of Deep Purple, ELP and other good organ heavy bands) and never had any problems being heard (when properly mic'd).

 

I still maintain to this day (my opinion of course) that in a R&R situation, there is nothing that strikes more fear into the heart of a lead guitarist with his twin Marshall stacks than a Hammond with a couple of leslies mic'd to the hilt. It's the only instrument (except for maybe a Minimoog) that can go toe to toe on an organic basis with a rock guitarist.

 

I'm not being "romantic" about the notion of a console vs. clonewheel. The practical considerations of one over the other are clear and undisputed. The sonic quality is pretty much there (pick whichever one YOU like best, but there is one that will do the job for you).

 

Personally, I love playing any of MY console/leslie combos (as long as I don't have to move them), but if I have to rely on an unknown backline, I'll take an XK rig and Vent almost every time for consistency and piece of mind.

 

The future . . . I don't know. It's pretty rosy at the moment given the good choices and they will only get better with time.

[Jason Stanfield]

I dont know what the future holds, but there are a few things I'd like to see:

 

1. More imperfections - Everyone's chasing the "perfect" Hammond sound, yet a lot of "signature" Hammond sounds came from organs or Leslies that were broken, worn-out, or had other imperfections in them. The ability to incorporate these sonic blemishes and tweak them would, I think, give players more options to create what is perfect for them.

 

2. Graded > Terraced Settings - I like that you can make adjustments to things like the percussion volume, etc., but having just a few settings - 1, 2, 3, or 4, or whatever - is silly. What if "2" isn't enough, but "3" is too much? Every tweakable option should have 0-127 resolution.

 

3. Expansion of the Virtual Tonewheel Concept - Back to emulating a "perfect" Hammond sound: isn't that sort-of like manufacturers building better and better subtractive synths just to create a realistic trumpet patch? All those options and adjustments, and all we get is one sound? Why not take the virtual tonewheel concept and give players the ability to create new sounds with it?

 

4. Integration of Other Models & Waveforms - Y'know the Nord Wave? What if, instead of a synth, it was a C2 - with a fully tweakable organ model - with the ability to bring in Mellotron, string, synth, or other samples to create interesting new sonic palettes?

 

5. Insert Effects - Outside of reverb and compression, I'd like to put a virtual flange or phaser between the organ tone and the rotary speaker. If not an internal effect, an input and output that would allow me to run an external effects unit as an insert effect.

 

- - -

 

Maybe this all isn't everyone's cup of tea, but that's what comes to mind for me. I'm disappointed that every year someone comes out with a new axe, everyone gets in a tizzy about it, some leapfrog endorser says, "I know I said that other one was the bomb last year, but THIS one is the REAL DEAL" ... and all you really have is another B3 clone that sounds a little better than last year's.

 

Yes, I know the market for clones is tiny and saturated with traditional players who only want "the REAL DEAL," but I think it's wasteful when there's SO much more than could be done with the clonewheel concept.

[kanker.]

I dont know what the future holds, but there are a few things I'd like to see:

 

1. More imperfections - Everyone's chasing the "perfect" Hammond sound, yet a lot of "signature" Hammond sounds came from organs or Leslies that were broken, worn-out, or had other imperfections in them. The ability to incorporate these sonic blemishes and tweak them would, I think, give players more options to create what is perfect for them.

 

2. Graded > Terraced Settings - I like that you can make adjustments to things like the percussion volume, etc., but having just a few settings - 1, 2, 3, or 4, or whatever - is silly. What if "2" isn't enough, but "3" is too much? Every tweakable option should have 0-127 resolution.

 

3. Expansion of the Virtual Tonewheel Concept - Back to emulating a "perfect" Hammond sound: isn't that sort-of like manufacturers building better and better subtractive synths just to create a realistic trumpet patch? All those options and adjustments, and all we get is one sound? Why not take the virtual tonewheel concept and give players the ability to create new sounds with it?

 

4. Integration of Other Models & Waveforms - Y'know the Nord Wave? What if, instead of a synth, it was a C2 - with a fully tweakable organ model - with the ability to bring in Mellotron, string, synth, or other samples to create interesting new sonic palettes?

 

5. Insert Effects - Outside of reverb and compression, I'd like to put a virtual flange or phaser between the organ tone and the rotary speaker. If not an internal effect, an input and output that would allow me to run an external effects unit as an insert effect.

 

Check out Logic's EVB3....

[Jason Stanfield]

Check out Logic's EVB3....

I've messed around with it briefly; I'll have to go back in and fool with it more.

 

(I've really shied away from software the last few years. I suppose newer computers are better than they used to be, but I came up in an era when you couldn't fully rely on a computer live, so I have a bias against software for anything other than noodling around in the studio.)

[MikeT156]

by Meisenhower:

 

I don't know about of this "trying to be heard" business with a Hammond and Leslie.

 

I played for years with a B3 and two leslies in a variety of musical situations from organ jazz trio to hard rock (lots of Deep Purple, ELP and other good organ heavy bands) and never had any problems being heard (when properly mic'd).

 

The old Leslies didn't not have a lot of watts of power. The old B2 I had came with a Leslie and it just didn't cut it for rock music.

 

The fly in the ointment of your quote was "when properly mic'd" I never cared for micing a Leslie, but it was a necessary evil in order to keep up with rock group stage volume. I ended up using dual Leslies too, but I felt that I got a better sound and a hotter signal when I bought a Korg CX-3 with a Preamp into dual Leslies. Although the Korg's upper octaves where shrill compared to a Hammond console organ, it worked better for rock.

 

That said, nothing was more enjoyable for me musically than when I sat at home playing my B3 and Leslie 122, both of which I bought brand new and never moved out of my house. Now THAT was a great sound, even with me playing it.

 

Mike T.

[vanderSchoot]

[video:youtube]

[Outkaster]

We are getting close and it seems to be nitpicking after awhile because so many guys want that sound they had when they were young. What do you think will happen?

There will come a time when the sound "they" had when they were young won't be a B3 because we'll all be dead. The look and hardware of a B3 in clones will then gradually fade away - as will clones themselves probably. The sound of a B3 /122 will be perfectly replicated in forms we can't even imagine today.

 

Hammond / Suzuki may be able to hang on somehow - carrying on the tradition.

 

 

Hammond-Suzuki will definitely want to hold on to keep some kind of the market share. They are not going to let their name go downhill. I am interested to see what comes out next.

[CEB]

I'm pretty sure Ray played the transistor organ in the Doors stuff because he had to. He mentioned in a Keyboard interview what a big deal it was for him when the band bought him a Hammond later on.

 

What I don't understand is why Ray still used a combo organ on the LA Woman album even after he had recorded in the studio with a Hammond.