A/Bing the new QSC K10 with the old Traynor K4

[Root]

Been playing the Electro 2 through my Traynor K4 for a while, and recently bought the QSC K10, mostly due to the raving around these parts. Also purchased a Yamaha MG mixer to boost the signal for the K10. I've been doing an apples to apples A/B comparison for the last couple days, and I'm torn between which one I want to keep. Here's what I've found:

 

Piano - I had no idea my NE2's piano could sound so great. The QSC wins in a landslide.

 

Organ - The tube sound of the Traynor is a clear winner if you're going for a grittier sound. For a mellower organ sound, the QSC is less shrill to my ears.

 

Rhodes - I always thought the Rhodes samples on the NE2 were kind of lacking in "body". But through the QSC, I like them better. I can hear more detail, and the playing experience seems to be a little punchier through the QSC.

 

Wurly and Clav - These have always been my favorite parts of the NE2 through the Traynor. But through the QSC, they seem so thin and digital compared with the Traynor. The clav lacks the same "bark" and the wurly seems to have a sharp attack - way too sharp - on the front that it doesn't have through the Traynor. This is kind of a bummer to me since these are the sounds, along with organ, that I use the most.

 

I've tried adding a little overdrive on the Nord, and even a little bit of phaser seems to help, but those two sounds are not the same. The wurly isn't as fat, and the clav isn't as dirty.

 

Has anyone else had the same experience being disappointed with the wurly and clav through a powered speaker vs an amp? Any suggestions on what to do about it?

[Root]

Oh, and no matter what sound I'm using, the low end on the QSC blows the Traynor out of the water...

[kanker.]

I've never had a problem with the Electro sounds and a powered speaker, and the K10 was a revelation, how good the Electro 2 could really sound. I'd say futz around with EQ settings, particularly the Presence controls. For overdrive, there are much better options than the onboard OD or a tube in a combo amp. If anything, the K10 exposed deficiencies in how I had programmed my Electro.

[Mark Schmieder]

Thanks; you guys just convinced me to go for the K10 or the K12 (due to the coverage angle being narrower, as well as deeper bass reach).

 

I can see introducing a pre-amp before the powered speaker. Whether a Speakeasy, or a Summit Audio TD100 (or pair thereof -- one forgets that organ is often stereo due to Leslie effect).

 

How are you guys positioning these things for comparison? Maybe this affects the perception? Are you putting the QSC's on a post, or using them wedge-style on the floor, pointed 45 degrees up towards you (similarly with the Traynor)?

[mate stubb]

You have named the two instruments which best benefit from being run thru a non hifi tube amp and speakers.

 

But unless you are micing the amp sound, kanker is right - get it programmed into the sound itself if possible.

[ITGITC]

You have named the two instruments which best benefit from being run thru a non hifi tube amp and speakers.

 

But unless you are micing the amp sound, kanker is right - get it programmed into the sound itself if possible.

 

Here's the question on everybody's mind...

 

Dateline: Mid 2010

 

Can intelligent programming replace a tube?

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

How are you guys positioning these things for comparison? Maybe this affects the perception? Are you putting the QSC's on a post, or using them wedge-style on the floor, pointed 45 degrees up towards you (similarly with the Traynor)?

 

I have a pair of K10's (sometimes use one, sometimes both). I don't have a short post for them, so usually wind up sitting the K10 on a chair. I have also placed one or both on the hard case that I carry the Electro in. I like the sound better if it is not sitting right on the floor.

 

My Electro is a 3 rather than a 2, and I don't have a combo amp to compare (I do have a large Trace Elliot bass amp - like the QSC's better).

[Mark Schmieder]

Interesting. When I switched from Motion Sound KP200 a number of years ago to the Ashly LX308b line mixer feeding my full-range Aguilar GS112 bass cabinet, it was a HUGE improvement, so I drew the false conclusion that higher-quality bass cabinets can serve both purposes.

 

Yet even after switching this week from GS-112 to self-powered Bergantino iP112, the mid-range (which is flatter on the Bergie) just doesn't cut it for the more acoustcy type sounds -- which is why I started re-evaluating keyboard-specific solutions.

 

I too do not put speakers on the floor. My bass cabinet sits atop the rack that houses the pre-amps and other gear. It's no surprise to me that the QSC's sound better on a chair; I just wasn't sure if it was necessary to put them on a post and/or whether using them as floor wedge monitors achieved similar ends.

 

It sounds like the QSC's are very flexible and scalable compared to other similar monitors, even though a few of them may be technically better (though those aren't available easily in the USA).

 

I'm still a bit squeamish about ABS vs. wood, but more recent composite-based monitors have not given me the upset tummy syndrome the way the older platicky "weight savings" designs did.

 

Hopefully I can find someone who carries the QSC's, but so far I only see their wedge line being inventories for floor demonstrations in the SF Bay Area.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I'm still a bit squeamish about ABS vs. wood, but more recent composite-based monitors have not given me the upset tummy syndrome the way the older platicky "weight savings" designs did.

 

QSC KW series: http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/kw_series/

 

Not quite as light-weight, but birch cabinets. I would have liked to compare these for sound, I bought based on recommendations here without having ever seen a unit - my largest debate was whether to go K10 or K12. I haven't tried laying them on the side, mostly because I'm generally using them for both my monitors and for house, seems like laying on side would send a lot of the sound up to the ceiling.

 

 

[DaveMcM]

Hi Root,

 

I have a K4 as well and generally place it on top of a Motion Sound powered sub. Last month I had a gig with limited stage depth so I used my JBL EON 15G2 in place of the K4/Sub combo and was pleasantly surprised. I didn't miss the stereo thing at all. Which brings me to a question for you if it wouldn't be much trouble. I have always felt the stereo imaging of the K4 was pretty much non-existent; not surprising since the L/R speakers are so close to each other and all front facing. But the real problem seems to be that very little sound actually comes from the midrange and HF speakers, or maybe more accurately said, the single 12" woofer carrying the summed signal way overpowers the other four speakers. If you get a chance, would you mind checking this out on your K4? I e-mailed Traynor asking if anyone else has had this problem, or if there was an internal balance control that might help to even out the levels going to the separate amps, and got a short ans sweat, NO. Thanks in advance.

 

Best Regards,

 

Dave

[Mark Schmieder]

How come no one considers the QSC K8? The reviews I have read seem to indicate that it is a strong contendor; moreso than other 8's.

 

I'm still more inclined towards a 12, just based on years of experience of using every size speaker cone there is. I think they sound best for every instrument that I can fake my way on. :-)

 

I'm also only looking at 12's for guitar amps. So that would mean specialized amplification for guitar, keys, and bass/etc. (the bass amp system still works best for most acoustic instruments). Modern 12's are miraculous and have all the responsivity that used to drive people to 10's and/or 8's.

[Michelle ggurl]

Oh geez, this thread is giving me GAS (TMI? LOL)

 

Hopefully I can find someone who carries the QSC's, but so far I only see their wedge line being inventories for floor demonstrations in the SF Bay Area.

 

Mark, let me know if you find someone who has them in stock, OK? I will do the same for you if I find someone. I'm in the South Bay near San Jose so maybe someone down here does ...

[GovernorSilver]

 

I'm also only looking at 12's for guitar amps. So that would mean specialized amplification for guitar, keys, and bass/etc. (the bass amp system still works best for most acoustic instruments). Modern 12's are miraculous and have all the responsivity that used to drive people to 10's and/or 8's.

 

On the other forum I frequent, a lot of guitarists (at least the ones willing to abandon tube amps or not gig with tube amps, in favor of modelers) do go for the QSC K10 or K12, but there doesn't seem to be an overwhelming preference among them for the 12.

[Kelly Gibson]

I have a K12. As Kanker stated, it was a revelation how good my electro and S90 sounded through the QSC. I had used Eon 10's and 15's for many years and my ears had become accustomed to their sound. I have a K8 on the way and will report back when I use it on a gig.

[bhodaway10]

Michelle, they sell them at the San Jose Guitar Center.

[Mark Schmieder]

Yeah, San Jose has the best music shops in Northern California at the moment, but I don't consider 50-60 miles to be "local". I don't trust my ancient car for much more than the 23 miles that I drive to work, the one or two days a week that I actually drive.

 

I will look forward to the upcoming K8 report, and it's also interesting to hear that some guitarists are finding the K10's and/or K12's a good match for guitar as well (don't tell the purists...).

[kanker.]

How come no one considers the QSC K8? The reviews I have read seem to indicate that it is a strong contendor; moreso than other 8's.

You can't kick the 8 back as a floor monitor.

[Mickey Keys]

Oh geez, this thread is giving me GAS (TMI? LOL)

 

Actually it's giving ME gas in a way, too . . .

More accurately, what my countrymen call "agita"

 

Wish I'd read this before I succumbed to all the starry-eyed testimonials (and perhaps not quite enough field research, although what I did hear of it in action sold me) and pulled the trigger on the K4, even though I have to admit that so far I have no real complaints.

 

Ah well . . .

[kanker.]

Oh geez, this thread is giving me GAS (TMI? LOL)

 

Actually it's giving ME gas in a way, too . . .

More accurately, what my countrymen call "agita"

 

Wish I'd read this before I succumbed to all the starry-eyed testimonials (and perhaps not quite enough field research, although what I did hear of it in action sold me) and pulled the trigger on the K4, even though I have to admit that so far I have no real complaints.

 

Ah well . . .

There's a kind of general rule that keyboard amps really aren't up to the job of amplifying keyboards properly the way PA gear does. In all my years, I've never heard a keyboard amp that can compete with good PA gear for modern keyboards

[Mark Schmieder]

Oh, I didn't notice the K8 limitations. I printed out all the product info for all the models late last night and haven't had time to review it all yet. Sounds like the K10 or K12 are the way to go, and maybe the K12 if going stereo, due to the coverage and overlap pattern and how that impacts the ideal setup positions.

[DanS]

Wish I'd read this before I succumbed to all the starry-eyed testimonials (and perhaps not quite enough field research, although what I did hear of it in action sold me) and pulled the trigger on the K4, even though I have to admit that so far I have no real complaints.

 

For a combo amp, the K4 is hard to beat. I've had mine for almost 4 years, and am now in the process of selling it.

It's being replaced by a K10 though, cuz it sounds much better, and is half the weight.

[ITGITC]

We often overlook the interaction between the woofer and the compression driver/horn.

 

Common sense says that a 12" woofer is going to offer extended bass compared with a 10" woofer.

 

Yes, but what about the smoothness in sound amongst the crossover frequencies? With some systems, there is a very audible hole in the midrange where a speaker should be (2-way design as opposed to a 3-way design).

 

The 12" woofer cone by virtue of its size has more mass to move. Therefore, it's not as quick to respond to transients as a smaller 10" cone. How does this affect the overall sound in the crossover region?

 

My point is that it's best to audition one speaker beside the other - and at equal volume levels since the one that's playing louder will often sound better simply because it's louder.

 

For me, I would take a good studio recording - my favorite is "Aja" - Steely Dan - and listen to hear any anomalies in the sound within an A/B comparison.

 

Then I would connect my PC2X through a mixer to the speakers and listen for bass extension, clarity, honkiness/ringing of the horn. In particular, how natural does that famous triple-strike Kurzweil piano sound through them?

 

Speakers make the biggest difference in one's sound. Most everyone here knows that. It's a huge decision.

 

Until I'm ready to audition these two models - the K10 and the K12 - I'm undecided.

 

Has anyone here done a side-by-side audition of these two?

 

Tom

 

[mate stubb]

For auditioning speakers, I'm a "Nightfly" man myself.

 

Then to check deep bass, I throw on "Trick of the Tail" for a little Taurus action.

[ITGITC]

For auditioning speakers, I'm a "Nightfly" man myself.

 

Then to check deep bass, I throw on "Trick of the Tail" for a little Taurus action.

 

I believe "Dark Side of the Moon" was a favorite for checking bass in ancient times.

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nA8t7ZFEOBI/S7OHoPAQHBI/AAAAAAAAAu4/mkyhpHR5p-g/s1600/Dark+Side+of+the+Moon_dark_side.jpg

[MoodyBluesKeys]

In ancient times - the favorite deep bass check was "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor," J. S. Bach. Preferably the Virgil Fox version. On a real phonograph record (Kiddies - you are permitted to Svengle this to discover what a "phonograph record" is).

 

[DanS]

For auditioning speakers, I'm a "Nightfly" man myself.

 

Then to check deep bass, I throw on "Trick of the Tail" for a little Taurus action.

 

Yeah, I guess Squonk & Dance On A Volcano would be a good barometer.

[Ken Beaumont]

In Ancient Times the clans would gather around my Klipsch Corner Horns and listen to John Entwisle talkin about his generation with his four string dragon slayer. These were kinder gentler times.

 

Now days people drive around in cars to deliver electronic computer driven bass drum awesomeness to the non-hearing impaired masses.

[BigJPatton]

I'm not sold on the QSC K10, for one thing it lacks the inputs and no way am I hooking up a mixer as well live, I have enough shit to plug in, also the has QSC has 2 speakers, the K4 has 5, less speakers equals less sound quality IMO, if you're running stereo QSC's I can see it, but one on one I have a hard time believing the QSC can beat the K4.

[ITGITC]

...the has QSC has 2 speakers, the K4 has 5, less speakers equals less sound quality IMO, if you're running stereo QSC's I can see it, but one on one I have a hard time believing the QSC can beat the K4.

 

Bunk.

 

If "less speakers equals less sound quality", then you are implying that more speakers should yield better sound.

 

If that were true, BOSE would have captured 100% of the market - and still offer only marginal sound quality (at best).

 

No. It's not the number of speakers in a cabinet that dictates sound quality - it's the engineering that takes into account the system as a whole.

 

Since a modern electronic keyboard can produce so many sounds, it's best that a keyboard amplifier or powered speaker system does not impart any coloration of its own - or at least minimize this. Therefore, the keyboard and associated electronics should produce the desired sound and effects before going to the amp & speaker.

 

For electric guitar + amplification, it's a different scenario. For a Rhodes or a Wurlitzer 200A, I've played them through tube amps and they sound great. But for a ROMpler, you must have a speaker system that is as neutral-sounding as possible in order to accurately serve up the sounds you're after - particularly acoustic piano sounds.

 

And, as discussed many times on this forum, for many of the current model powered speakers - including the JBL EON, the Mackie, and the QSC, it's best to have a mixer between the keyboard and the powered speaker. Not only does this provide for proper gain staging, but also offers the benefits and flexibility of EQ and mic inputs.

 

I've never heard a keyboard amplifier that can offer the sound quality of a small mixer plus two powered speakers when used with a modern electronic keyboard.

 

 

[BlackandWhite]

Until I'm ready to audition these two models - the K10 and the K12 - I'm undecided.

 

Has anyone here done a side-by-side audition of these two?

 

When I bought the K10 a few months ago, my local GC had only the 8 and 10. I did a pretty extensive A/B of them, and decided that the 10, with greater headroom across the spectrum, and the angled back for floor monitor use, was for me. I wish I could have then compared the 10 and 12. One concern for me was the decreased disperson angle of the 12, as I use only the one monitor. For those who kick bass, I'd think the 12 is definitely worth including in the search.