New Yamaha stage pianos!

[Dave Horne]

I wonder how the action compares to the vaunted Grantouch.

 

The GranTouch has a real grand piano action - the insides of a real grand (probably a six footer) but no strings.

 

I'm guessing the CP1 will be very much like the CP300 (even with the wooden keys).

[Mogut]

I think it will be the same technology as the NW keys on all the clavs

 

http://yamahaclavinova.com/about/touch.html#touch03

[SK]

A good step in the right direction for Yamaha. As always, it's the acoustic piano emulations that I care about, and I'm picky about that. The Rhodes on Yamaha's are usually good anyway.

 

The upper mid to high notes sound great. Once again, I'm hearing a bit of synthetic hollowness in the mids like the V-Piano, but not nearly as much. At this stage, it's apparently something inherent in modeling technology. And there's a certain uniformity in the tones across the keyboard that makes it seem somewhat like the CP-300 and Yamaha's other DP's. Just from the demos, this comes off to me as a super CP-300, with modeling characteristics.

 

So just from a digital 'acoustic' piano perspective - very nice. I'm not blown away yet, although I may be when I try it.

 

It seems all these new DP's from Korg, Roland and now Yamaha take innovative steps forward and a couple steps back on the acoustic piano sounds - something gained and something lost. The result is clear improvement; closer, if no cigar. I just wish a company would come up with a portable DP where I could say "now there's a piano!" Like the V, the cost and weight are still issues. But better is always better, and I do look forward to trying it out.

 

 

[b3keys]

CP1 60 Lbs. Need a roadie or 2!

[e-keys]

Because of the weight and price I will have to wait for the rack module to come out.

[allan_evett]

After watching the Keyboard Mag video I have much more of an impression that these pianos use sampling to create the basic tone vs. a pure modeling approach. This IS THE WAY TO GO, IMHO. Certain soft synths, e.g. Digidesign Velvet, use sampling with modeling to really give you the best of both worlds. You get the accurate tone but with no velocity jumps and much more control over shaping of the sound.

 

 

 

I agree, Busch, big time. I think Yamaha has started something quite good here.

Being that I don't need a separate stage piano at this time, it will likely be a combined piano/synth offshoot of this technology that will end up in my rig ( HyperMotif, S100, or something like that...). That may be another year, or two; but will be worth the wait. However, if a CP module should appear sooner, then I may go for that. Unlikely though, as it's been my understanding that Yamaha is not too keen on piano modules anymore. Apparently, they were underwhelmed by P50m sales - and that came out in the mid 90's.

 

This new CP series sounds great. The Rhodes pianos are stunning. If my gigging situation changed, and I needed a digital piano/controller, the CP5 would likely be it for me.

[Mark Schmieder]

I was initially excited, and do think this is a big step forward from them, but in the end, it's still Yamaha-only acoustic pianos with not even a Boesendorfer (which they now own).

 

That's just too limiting for me, if I were to buy one as a Digital Piano. And as I can't afford something this expensive in addition to a PC3(K), Kurz still wins my paycheque.

 

I didn't hear a Harpsichord example, which someone commented on sounding nice. Nor does it have a Clavinet. Well, maybe the CP-5 and/or CP-50 do, as they also have stuff from the MOTIF and/or arranger keyboard series.

 

I'll be curious to try out the keybed action at any rate. And to my ears, the CP-1 first Rhodes demo sounded pretty good as did the CP-1 piano demos, but not the CP-5/CP-50 demos, nor the second Rhodes nor the Wurly. The latter sounded very sterile.

[MAJUSCULE]

Looks fantastic, but with a 5k price tag, I'm staying on the SV-1 path.

[kanker.]

Kurz still wins my paycheque.

Is there a payroll company in the States that writes paycheques?

[Mark Schmieder]

??? It's auto-deposit, but the same firm that does almost all corporate payroll handling.

[Joe Muscara]

[Joe Muscara]

[video:youtube]

[Mark Schmieder]

I can't watch the video, but the "headline" is rather offensive, as it suggests some fakeness to Madonna's accent. When you live amongst people, you tend to adapt so that you are better understood. One of my ex-girlfriends lived in the U.K. for several years, and though her accent has shifted since returning to the U.S., some things will probably stick for life.

 

Just as my Canadian roots and the majority of what I read being of non-U.S. origin means I have lost all consciousness of what one is supposed to say to be accepted as a true red-blooded American anymore.

 

Notice how most US music-oriented publications are gone (many news periodicals as well) and how the better UK publications have affirmed themselves with a major US presence?

 

I remember Indiana well; I went to college there and visit every couple of years or so.

[Dave Horne]

My local store (in Oisterwijk) has the CP1 at their site for 4499. (In US$ that comes to $ 6450.)

 

I won't be buying it though if I hit the lottery I most definitely would.

[Aidan]

Yup, a 4500UKP price tag ends any interest for me in the CP1. Just like the V-Piano, I'm simply not prepared to spend that sort of money on a product whose technology will no doubt be severely refined and made more affordable over the next two or three years.

 

They haven't announced pricing on the other two yet but I would be surprised if the CP5 comes in below 3000UKP, as it appears to use a lot of the materials (including the wooden keyboard) from the more expensive machine. That's still a big stretch for most keyboard buyers.

 

That would leave us with the CP50 at perhaps around the 2000UKP mark, to compete with the RD700GX. Lower weight, probably better tonal palette overall but action will be no match for the Roland, I predict.

 

I'm still trying to get my head around the absence of a mod wheel...

[Gas In The Air]

Prices are out in Germany

 

http://www.musik-schmidt.de/Yamaha-CP-1.html

 

CP1: 5,299

CP5: 2,599

CP50: 1,799

 

Reasonable if you ask me.

[Aidan]

The CP5 price does seem a lot more reasonable at that. That works out at 2300UKP, which if that's the RRP may get discounted down to about 1700UKP by the dealers, bringing it in line with the RD700GX.

[Gas In The Air]

I don't think the CP5 will be in the same price range like the RD700GXwhich trades for 2,099 in Germany .The wooden keys and the fact that this is a board using some sort of sound modelling technique makes me think that Yamaha will set the price higher. They might go down a bit when the instruments will actually been introduced but I dont expect much.

[Mogut]

I need to figure out what I can sell to come up with the 5g+.

[Pale]

A kidney!

[InWalkedBud]

I don't know why no one has posted the Keyboard Mag Exclusive Video yet, but here ya go.

 

To me it sounds a lot nicer on the video (as opposed to the demos on the Yamaha website). Anyway, the piano sounds great and the Rhodes is pretty nice, too. Not worth the price tag for my purposes (3-stage illuminated logo aside), but still a nice piece of technology!

[Dave Horne]

A kidney!

 

Anyone remember The Firesign Theatre bit about something costing an arm and a leg?

[b3keys]

CP1:

4,502.00 EUR = 6,429.06 USD

 

 

[burningbusch]

The Euro/Pound pricing rarely translates directly to USD when it comes to MI. A Yamaha Motif XS8 sells for 2626 (British pound) which translates to $4246 USD. But the pricing of the XS8 in the US is $3599, so it splits the difference.

 

The CP-1 is one of those flagship products. Ignore it. The CP-5 seems to give up VERY little and has some meaningful advantages over the CP-1. And the CP-50 might not be a slouch either.

 

Busch.

[Dana.]

A U.S. retailer's web site has the prices listed as follows:

 

CP1: $5,000

CP5: $2,600

CP50: $1,700

[SK]

I'd like to fast forward 3-5 years from now to see how modeling starts to trickle down to lower cost Rolands and Yamahas. That might happen with Roland first, since they got a slight head start.

 

Until they get it right, I hope someone tries pairing it with samples to compensate in the lows and mid range. My one concern is modeling could take on a life of its own, so keyboardists could forget what an actual piano is supposed to sound like.

[burningbusch]

I'd like to fast forward 3-5 years from now to see how modeling starts to trickle down to lower cost Rolands and Yamahas. That might happen with Roland first, since they got a slight head start.

 

Until they get it right, I hope someone tries pairing it with samples to compensate in the lows and mid range. My one concern is modeling could take on a life of its own, so keyboardists could forget what an actual piano is supposed to sound like.

 

SK, I'm a little confused by your post. Along with the $5,000 flagship CP-1 Yamaha is introducing the CP-5 ($2600) and CP50 ($1700) all of which use the same technology. So the trickle down has already happened on the Yamaha side.

 

Also, the technology used Yamaha calls Spectral Component Modeling which appears to by a hybrid of sampling and physical modeling. Other companies have use this approach on the soft synth side and I find it superior to pure physical modeling especially when it comes to complex tones like violin, sax, trumpet, piano and even Rhodes. With very simple, static waveforms, e.g. virtual analog synths and modeled tonewheels, pure physically modeling works great. This hybrid approach strives to give you the best of both worlds with accurate sampled waveforms but with virtually no velocity jumps and much more control over key elements of the sound and how it responds to touch.

 

Busch.

[SK]

Sure, I'll try to clarify. Sorry for any confusion - my arm chair musings are all based on what I'm subjectively hearing in these various piano sounds. As you must know by now, I'm not a tech expert - just someone who knows what I want to hear in a piano.

 

First, I didn't know that Spectral Component Modeling, by its title, was a hybrid of sampling. I'm encouraged to hear that a hybrid approach is already happening, so thanks for pointing that out. That's probably why I didn't notice as strong a synthetic midrange on the CP1 as the V.

 

I don't quite consider Yamaha's simultaneous release of 3 keyboards as trickle down technology - yet, being a co-release of their initial technology. I want to see how this affects future keyboards with all the companies, as the technology improves further. I agree the hybrid approach is the best of both worlds, as I posted ages ago when the V was announced.

 

I think modeling is the future. My post was just to remind these companies that, as they get closer to a piano sound, the remaining glaring imperfections should be addressed.

 

I want to hear a piano sound that speaks authentically in the middle of the instrument, where slow passages have no hint of a synthetic quality. I still hear some lack of midrange warmth and realism in the physical models I've heard thus far, but with some improvement in the CP series. I don't doubt future technology can surmount that. That's why I'd like to jump ahead a few years and see where this goes.

 

So, does that explain it, or make it worse?

 

 

[burningbusch]

Thanks SK,

 

The reason I'm concluding it's a hybrid approach is not based on any documentation but rather the Keyboard Mag video where Avery (the Yamaha rep) clearly talks about sampling but also the modeling technology.

 

It's definitely worth watching all four videos. I am most anxious to hear the Rhodes and Wurly as I think these could be potentially the best part of the instrument. I'm afraid acoustic piano emulations will remain very challenging for developers for some time.

 

Keyboard Mag - CP1

 

Busch.

[SK]

Thanks SK,

 

I'm afraid acoustic piano emulations will remain very challenging for developers for some time.

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Busch.

Yep. They need to focus on the piano midrange and the lows. The extreme lows and upper registers are virtually already there .

 

For Rhodes/Wurli's/clavs, no problem - they should sound great. They were already pretty decent before. Being the unbearable purist I am, I just think a "stage piano" should be a piano first.