drawback Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 If you were to take the output from the Yamaha AvantGrand and run it through a stereo system or listen to a recording of the output, I doubt that you would conclude "this is the best sounding digital piano I've ever heard." On the other hand, if you sat down to the AvantGrand in person I think you just might conclude it's the best digital representation of a piano you've ever encountered. Imagine a jazz drummer who was playing a purely electronic kit, triggering the best samples available but running them through a pair of stereo speakers behind him. Would it sound like an acoustic kit? Of course not. But that's the same thing that happens with digital pianos. Now if the electronic kit was designed so that each drum/cymbal had its own speakers which amplify and enhance each particular sound, it might in fact sound like an acoustic kit. I think jazz/classical pianists are searching/expecting that completely engulfing acoustic sound. That's how they hear the piano and that's the only way it is going to sound right with their music as the music is acoustic not electric. Generic, directional speakers screw up everything, IMHO. Busch. As usual, you've nailed it. +1 ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Erm, what's the difference between all these? Typically, in a keyboard series, you would find the flagship model to include ALL the features, and the lower models to have less features as you go down the line. This is not necessarily the case with these. Clearly the CP1 has the most modeling capacities as illustrated in the block diagram, along with the FM engine. Things like the bigger display, the full pedal unit, the logo, and the 2 extra piano samples, are also desirable features over the 5 and the 50. But based on the feature comparison chart in the second post, I'm surprised to see the price differences set the way they are. Seems they are banking on the modeling features to be the big $ draw. Although there are some interesting trade offs between the CP1 and the CP5. I'm really surprised to see the CP1 not have the mic input like the 5 does. In this series, nothing about the CP50 appeals to me. But I just can't wrap my head around a box with a circuit/processor board and piano keys costing $5000. After taking a good look at that comparison chart I think I might consider the CP5. That goes for 2300 here which is more or less what I would have paid for the upgrade to the CP300. Spending almost twice that amount for the CP1 seems like overkill; this year has been the absolute worst for me since everyone is cutting back on live music. I've already sent an e-mail to one guy who's interested in buying a CP300. I believe I sold my P250 for 1400. If I could get say 1600 for my CP300 I might swing it even though it's been a bad year. You only live once and if you don't spend your money you certainly can't take it with you, right? No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fortner Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Dave, I'd have to agree that the CP-5 is really the sweet spot in the new product line. The CP-1 is the "concept car" for people who want more sounds that take advantage of the new Spectrum Component Modeling, and have other sounds offered by the CP-5 covered already. But having played the CP-1, I will say that damn, she's beautiful. Stephen Fortner Principal, Fortner Media Former Editor in Chief, Keyboard Magazine Digital Piano Consultant, Piano Buyer Magazine Industry affiliations: Antares, Arturia, Giles Communications, MS Media, Polyverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danimuschi Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 As a Yamaha endorser I was asked to test one a couple of months ago... I don't know exactly which one it was, 'cos it was covered in tape and it was all very secret ;-) Anyways. -I was blown away by the sound! I'm more a keyboardplayer than a pianoplayer, so I'm not the right person to comment about the nuances of the pianosound. What I can say though is that ALL of the piano sounds are very musical and fun to play. The Rhodes, Wurlizer and CP sounds are the best I've ever played and I'm very picky about it... -I'm not known for using clones:-) I only spent about 30 minutes with it and had a great time. I would be very happy to use this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkphingerz88 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 But with no disrespect, as a Yamaha endorsee you would say that..) Chief Product Officer at Rhodes®. Project leader and designer of the Rhodes MK8 piano and V8 Plug-in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 What does it take again to be a Yamaha endorser? No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 But the critical thing is the SPEAKERS and placement of the speakers. As soon as you take the best piano emulation and send it out PA speakers or the like, it's going to start sucking badly. That's not how we hear an acoustic piano. There needs to be much more work done by manufacturers in designing speaker systems that are tuned for a particular piano emulation and designed to fill the room in a non-directional (acoustic) fashion. They should be built in or they could be removable to reduce weight, but they need to create a surround, acoustic sound. +1 The keyboard community has always accepted the generic flat/clean PA as a given ... yet real instruments are not flat, they have resonances, spacial cues ... all sorts of "flaws" which translate to richness. The sound system design is a non-trivial problem we have largely ignored. I have to believe that unique characterful speaker systems will be helpful for our other sounds as well ... much as the leslie gives character to a b3, and a suitcase amp gives character to a suitcase rhodes. Just a $0.0000002 .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Loving Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I have always thought that as soon as you have a channel from the right over here, and a channel for the left over there, it gets very unpiano like. I think you need the sound emanating from a point - like with a piano soundboard to be realistic. I heard a grand piano mic'ed in a very large church once - with a small congregation present and you could hear the separate channels and it sounded most weird. "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMcD Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 So, the CP1 is supposed to be the flagship? Looks to me like it's significantly lacking in features compared to the CP5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I have always thought that as soon as you have a channel from the right over here, and a channel for the left over there, it gets very unpiano like. I think you need the sound emanating from a point - like with a piano soundboard to be realistic. You hit the nail on the head, daviel. I've finally been able to get that with my weird custom setup - sound emanating from one spot resonating from the floor, with uniform dispersal. A piano sound never sounds natural to me coming from left and right speakers. The sound system is crucial, but my main point was simply this - if you listen to a beautifully recorded grand piano on a CD, vs. a DP on a CD, you CAN tell the difference. There's no question there's a quality difference in the source sound, even when listening to it on two stereo speakers. That's the difference I was pointing out, and why I hope DP's will eventually sound like an acoustic EVEN through 2 speakers. Meanwhile, I'm really glad to hear that the new Yamaha seems to be so good. I can't wait to try it out. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 So, the CP1 is supposed to be the flagship? Looks to me like it's significantly lacking in features compared to the CP5. From one angle, yes. But if you compare it to the V-Piano, Roland's flagship which only offers acoustic piano sounds, the CP1 offers more by way of electric pianos. (And it's cheaper and lighter.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMcD Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Ah, I see. Well, this looks interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danimuschi Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 But with no disrespect, as a Yamaha endorsee you would say that..) hehe! i see what you're saying, but i wouldn't have said anything if i didn't like it. It's probably not for me anyway, since i've got all of the originals and a roady, so i don't have to worry about imitations... Just thought i'd chip in since i actually played it :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I think that both the CP-1 and the CP-5 are the flagship product, depending on your needs and perspective. :-) Stephen Fortner pretty much nailed it in his summary. I don't know the detailed differences between the acoustic piano sound engine of the CP-1 vs. CP-5, but I think the CP-1 is meant as more of an answer to the Roland V-Piano, with the CP-5 appealing a bit more to people who are somewhere between an S90 XS and a CP300 in their needs, as well as maybe competing against the Kawai MP-series. This series seems very close on the heals of the AvantGrand. Maybe it provides some synergy and a migration path once people get hooked. At any rate, I look forward to trying these models at the NAMM Show. These do not seem intended to replace the CP33 and CP300, but I could be wrong. It's an interesting move, to add in a whole new product range that may reach a different market segment. It must have been really hard to find the right price points to avoid cannibalizing any of their other lines. Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 So, the CP1 is supposed to be the flagship? Looks to me like it's significantly lacking in features compared to the CP5. The modeling capabilities are a bit deeper with the CP-1. You have a pre-amp model for the acoustic piano and speaker simulations which are only available on the CP-1. There is an extra EQ version of the acoustic pianos as well. And the CP-1 has real FM technology powering the DX pianos whereas the others rely on sampling. But, the CP-5 provides six simultaneous parts and the CP-50 three parts vs. only two parts on the flagship. Even more significant, the CP-1 can ONLY produce the piano sounds while the others can include many more sounds taken from, supposedly, the Motif XS soundset. So you can layer strings/pads and have bass splits which is not possible with the CP-1. The CP-5 definitely looks like the one to get but the CP-50 might be the sleeper. If what's included sounds great and it's what you need, it might make a lot of sense the right player. The CP-5 and CP-50 seem VERY competitively priced. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I finally watched those Stephen Fortner Keyboard videos. When I first went to that page, I saw that 'Video is not available' message, and just gave up. I just now saw that 'click here to open the video in its own window' link, and so I was able to watch the video. I'll have to play it and hear it for myself in person of course, but based on what I can see and hear in that video, I'm very impressed. You can hear the quality even through that web demo. That thing with the rhodes sounds is very promising, they say they have developed a new technology, so that you can't hear the velocity switches. And to that I say "hear, hear!" Yes! And from what you can hear in the demos, those rhodes pianos sound awesome. So do the Wurlies. I can hardly wait to try one of these out. I can't see myself gigging with it, not very often, anyway, because of the weight, but maybe I'll get one for home use. Seems very very promising. For piano sounds, it would seem like the CP1 is the one to get. 60 lbs.... hmmm. Maybe I'll have to start that weight training regimen after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 by Dave Horn: You only live once and if you don't spend your money you certainly can't take it with you, right? That's for sure. Realistically, there are a lot of things to consider. How long will it take for the instrument to pay for itself, how many gigs you will need to play to break even, and of course, how long do you intend to keep playing gigs before you call it a career? Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 1st reaction-acoustic piano sounds really sterile-no vibe to it, Rhodes sounds really tiney, not vintage sounding to me. Great that it has master control functions....WITHOUT A MOD WHEEL......who designs these things!? hope it sounds better than the demos I didn't get that impression at all. Naturally, I have to play it for myself before really forming an opinion, but to me, based on the demos available, the pianos sound like pianos, the Rhodes sound very authentic to me, not 'tiney'. Maybe we listened to different demos or something - which demo did you listen to? I've listened to the ones at yamahasynth.com, and also Stephen Fortner's Keyboard interview with Avery Burdette. I agree that a mod wheel would have been nice. Come to think of it, who needs a pitch bend on a piano? If you're only going to have one wheel, mod makes more sense. However, maybe the wheel can function as either a mod or pitch bend - that would really make sense, and I hope that's how it is designed to function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I'm hearing a bit of synthetic hollowness in the mids like the V-Piano, but not nearly as much. In which demo do you hear that, Steve? I'm curious, because I've listened to all the demos, I think, and I do not hear what you are talking about. If you tell me what demo you're referring to, I'll listen again, and see if I hear the same thing. As I mentioned before, I don't put too much faith in these web demos, and reserve judgment until I hear it for myself in person. But still, I'm curious how you came to that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayvon Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I agree that a mod wheel would have been nice. Come to think of it, who needs a pitch bend on a piano? If you're only going to have one wheel, mod makes more sense. However, maybe the wheel can function as either a mod or pitch bend - that would really make sense, and I hope that's how it is designed to function. Maybe they figured you could similar functionality out of the controller pedal? It leads to either end being roughly the same width which is kind of nice for getting your bearings in the middle of the piano I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 I'm hearing a bit of synthetic hollowness in the mids like the V-Piano, but not nearly as much. In which demo do you hear that, Steve? I'm curious, because I've listened to all the demos, I think, and I do not hear what you are talking about. If you tell me what demo you're referring to, I'll listen again, and see if I hear the same thing. As I mentioned before, I don't put too much faith in these web demos, and reserve judgment until I hear it for myself in person. But still, I'm curious how you came to that opinion. Richard, I can't remember which demo that was now (it's been several days), but it was a direct recording, maybe from the Yamaha site. Not as noticeable as the V-Piano and not a big deal, but it was still in there. I didn't hear it at all on the Fortner video, which was recorded from the room. Not very clear in this video, but it's subtly in the left hand chords from the 1:10 mark on. A type of hollow synthetic tone, not like a piano, but something modeled after a piano - impossible to describe. This is also not a direct recording, but it's a little more apparent from the start. Check especially the 4th or 5th chord where he plays (A/Eb) If I run across that demo where it was a lot more obvious, I'll post it. CD: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/stevekessler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatoboy Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 All I have to say is I'm unemployed once again (as of 12/14/2009). 4 layoffs in 10 years. I'm so tired of this! The only CP at this juncture for me will have to be - 'Cheap and Practical'. 1 5 and 50! The piano teaching ads are going out after New Years along with my IT development resumes. I can't wait to try the new CP's regardless of my economic state though. CP-50, YC 73, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Good luck Tony! "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Zero Two Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Seems like all the on lines dealers are starting to list these pianos - looks to be map 1700 for the CP50 and 2600 for the CP5 - available mid March - give or take a month or two. Neat new Brouchure available as well. http://www.andysmusiconline.com/products/yamaha-cp50.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicale Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Mr. Legatoboy, Maybe dress up and do like a Lady Ga Ga impersonation. Regardless good luck on the quest. Regards, Musicale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 FYI, the Data List for the CP-1 is now available. CP-1 Data List PDF Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Loving Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 CP1= 130 lbs, $5,000 (maybe made of uranium?); CP5 = 70 lbs, $2600; CP50 46 lbs, $1600. "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Unless I'm missing something, that Data List is full of blank tables... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 CP1= 130 lbs, $5,000 (maybe made of uranium?); CP5 = 70 lbs, $2600; CP50 46 lbs, $1600. Don't know where you're coming up with the weights. CP1 = 60 lbs; CP5 = 55 lbs; CP50 = 46 lbs. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted January 7, 2010 Share Posted January 7, 2010 Unless I'm missing something, that Data List is full of blank tables... You must be missing a font or something. It comes up fine on my machine. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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