Eric Jx Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 A: Put sheet music in front of him. So last night we're rehearsing and we're playing borderline by Madonna. I notice that whenever we get to the chorus something isn't right. I stop everybody and break down what everybody is playing. Turns out during the second chord in the sequence the guitarist is playing an A# chord, when it should be a F#. He start arguing with me that he's just following the bass player and if the bass player is playing a A# and he's playing an A# chord then it must be me who is wrong. I explain to him the the bass player's A# isn't the root of the chord and is the first inversion of a F#. He looks at me like I have 3 heads and I'm speaking another language. Why is it ok to be a guitarist who is ignorant of basic music theory as long as you have some chops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Are you sure you weren't talking to a drummer? "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepay Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Why is it ok to be a guitarist who is ignorant of basic music theory as long as you have some chops? It isn't. In a former band of mine, one of the guitarists didn't ever play minor chords (power chords only), so when talking about chord progressions he might say B when in fact it was Bm. Kind of frustrating. Bottom line though really is that no one gives a crap about the keyboard player, and as long as the guitarist can make some ear drums bleed and throw in a passable solo, the band gets high marks. Generally speaking that is. While I'm biased as a keyboard player (though I do play guitar too...just poorly), I would like to think most in the audience can appreciate kanker and B3er...that has to do with their skill but also the types of audiences they play to. For most bands, who play to a bunch of mooks, the guitarist is the hero even if he's the worst of the bunch. Steve (Stevie Ray) "Do the chickens have large talons?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 "Just play a D chord between these two dots." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Why is it ok to be a guitarist who is ignorant of basic music theory as long as you have some chops? Slow down buddy. There are many fine musos who are do not know basic music theory. They make up for it with good ears and/or study/practice. Your guitar player should have listened to and learned the song instead of looking at his shoes, er, leaning on the bass player. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mynameisdanno Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 The common guitarists' ignorance of slash chords manifests itself in this way a lot. In certain circles, I almost expect it. I think even mediocre keyboard players take this concept for granted because you get practical exposure to independently moving bass notes pretty early on in beginner piano material. Not so much for your typical rock-focused guitar player. Is it OK? Well, depends on whether the guitar player's willing to listen to you when you say "trust me, just play F# and see what you think". In any situation, I try to be ready to give any on-the-run theory lessons as needed without turning a pedantic SOB. Sometimes I just say to myself "oh, how nice, he's playing Cmaj7/E" (ignoring the pedantic SOB part of my brain saying "the moron is playing Em because the bass player is playing an E") and let it go. In other situations (like that F#/A#) it's a little less tolerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanC Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Why is it ok to be a guitarist who is ignorant of basic music theory as long as you have some chops? Slow down buddy. There are many fine musos who are do not know basic music theory. They make up for it with good ears and/or study/practice. This is often true, however that does not qualify these fine musos to debate theory with some one who is, well. . . lets just say less ignorant. Stan Gig Rig: Yamaha S90 XS; Hammond SK-1; Rehearsal: Yamaha MOX8 Korg Triton Le61, Yamaha S90, Hammond XK-1 Retired: Hammond M2/Leslie 145, Wurly 200, Ensoniq VFX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Prof's right (again). Theory is one part of the equation - just as big ears, a vocabulary, some technique, a sense of time, a willingness to serve the music and ability to play with conviction are all part of musicality. Most of us are short on at least one of those - and some like Marino, Lots2Learn and 7notemode (and others) are WAY farther ahead than many of us. What makes for "situations" in a band is when one member is much farther behind the mean average of the rest. Or he's a dick. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Are you sure you weren't talking to a drummer? Second laugh of the day. Thanks! No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I played for many years with a good friend (even housemate for some years). He didn't play too loud, and was as smart as hell, and in general a decent player with excellent timing and right hand work. But when we'd play a tune he knew from a previous band, he say "it's a C" when in fact it was an A minor. And stuff like that. It got to the point where we joked about his ear, and though he was a mild-mannered guy, that got his nose out of joint. So, we laid off the comments but winked when we thought he wasn't looking. A year or two later, we were talking about this, and he defended his ability to hear clearly (with good reason). I laughed, explaining that an "ear" is mosly cognitive. He was so relieved to learn this! And after that, he started paying attention and learning, and got quite a bit better. I guess we all assumed it was obvious, especially to such a smart guy, but all along he thought we were dissing him for a physical disability. I'm happy to be in a band now that, while we're all amateurs, everyone's on about the same level of understanding. I was elated when the *singer* pointed out I was playing something wrong and what I should be playing (and was dead on). And the horn section, don't ever need to tell those guys what's going on, unless they ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Jx Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 There are many fine musos who are do not know basic music theory. If your mind set is that because the bass player is playing a B flat, then the only possibility is a B flat chord....then you have a deficiency that practice isn't going to correct. I frankly don't care if you know what the word inversion means. I would just like to see that he has an intuitive understanding that the bass player isn't always playing the root of a chord. I'm just really frustrated with the results of last nights practice. We finally have a new singer on board after months of auditions. I'd like to demonstrate to her that we're a tight band to back her up. The guitarist was all over the place. Wrong chords. Way too loud. Timing issues, playing solos that he's nailed before very tentatively, as if he's figuring them out as he goes. I'm cringing through songs and afterwards the drummer comes out with "that's the best we ever sounded on that song". Then I have to contradict him and say, "sorry.....this, this and this was off, we need to do it again" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I bet he's already done the singer,too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 There are many fine musos who are do not know basic music theory. If your mind set is that because the bass player is playing a B flat, then the only possibility is a B flat chord....then you have a deficiency that practice isn't going to correct. I frankly don't care if you know what the word inversion means. I would just like to see that he has an intuitive understanding that the bass player isn't always playing the root of a chord. I'm just really frustrated with the results of last nights practice. We finally have a new singer on board after months of auditions. I'd like to demonstrate to her that we're a tight band to back her up. The guitarist was all over the place. Wrong chords. Way too loud. Timing issues, playing solos that he's nailed before very tentatively, as if he's figuring them out as he goes. I'm cringing through songs and afterwards the drummer comes out with "that's the best we ever sounded on that song". Then I have to contradict him and say, "sorry.....this, this and this was off, we need to do it again" Well, I don't know how or why you would expect the drummer to react any differently. Otherwise, your assessment of deficiency is fair enough. Again, had the guitar player learned the song, it would have been a non-issue. If he hasn't done the new singer already, once that gets corrected, his condition should clear up. Seriously, don't stress yourself out mayne. Music is a beautiful thing. It is meant to be enjoyed. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Jx Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 Seriously, don't stress yourself out mayne. Music is a beautiful thing. It is meant to be enjoyed. I realize that my original post is nothing more than a rant...and rant posting generally don't add much to the greater keyboard forum community. There are times when it therapeutic to post just to clear your head. I do appreciate the level headed replies. It's nice sometimes to hear that others have been through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Seriously, don't stress yourself out mayne. Music is a beautiful thing. It is meant to be enjoyed. I realize that my original post is nothing more than a rant...and rant posting generally don't add much to the greater keyboard forum community. There are times when it therapeutic to post just to clear your head. I do appreciate the level headed replies. It's nice sometimes to hear that others have been through it. Another overused saying but it's all good. Many of us have been there, done that. So, rants are accepted. We try to help others through those challenging times with wisdom and humor. Thankfully, cats like yourself are still in those trenches putting up the good fight. Personally, it takes a Brinks truck filled with dead presidents and a pack of armed hotties for me to consider a rehearsal. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDP Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I feel for ya man.....Assuming these are major triads and assuming the chord is really F#/A# bass, and he is laying an A# triad on there....that really sounds bad. If he cannot hear this, well...thats just bad news all the way around. I would think the band would complain. Maybe you could tape the rehearsal and give a listen while everyone is on the couch away from their gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Tell him it's m+5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pale Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Sometimes I just say to myself "oh, how nice, he's playing Cmaj7/E" (ignoring the pedantic SOB part of my brain saying "the moron is playing Em because the bass player is playing an E") and let it go. The real problem is when he's playing Cmaj7/E (Em and bass player playing an E), and you actually (or the song requires it) want it to be C7. I think I opened a thread about this once. Custom handmade clocks: www.etsy.com/shop/ClockLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mynameisdanno Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Sometimes I just say to myself "oh, how nice, he's playing Cmaj7/E" (ignoring the pedantic SOB part of my brain saying "the moron is playing Em because the bass player is playing an E") and let it go. The real problem is when he's playing Cmaj7/E (Em and bass player playing an E), and you actually (or the song requires it) want it to be C7. Most of the guitar players I run into with this problem are in (can I say "white" here?) modern worship settings, where dominant 7th chords are so rarely called for that it's fortunately never an issue. "Diabolus in musica" back from the dead, I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepay Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 There are many fine musos who are do not know basic music theory. If your mind set is that because the bass player is playing a B flat, then the only possibility is a B flat chord....then you have a deficiency that practice isn't going to correct. I frankly don't care if you know what the word inversion means. I would just like to see that he has an intuitive understanding that the bass player isn't always playing the root of a chord. I'm just really frustrated with the results of last nights practice. We finally have a new singer on board after months of auditions. I'd like to demonstrate to her that we're a tight band to back her up. The guitarist was all over the place. Wrong chords. Way too loud. Timing issues, playing solos that he's nailed before very tentatively, as if he's figuring them out as he goes. I'm cringing through songs and afterwards the drummer comes out with "that's the best we ever sounded on that song". Then I have to contradict him and say, "sorry.....this, this and this was off, we need to do it again" Wait! The guitar player was playing too loud!? That's CRAZY talk! Steve (Stevie Ray) "Do the chickens have large talons?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Jx Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 I wonder if we go lurking over on the guitar forums, what are the guitarists saying about us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pale Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Sometimes I just say to myself "oh, how nice, he's playing Cmaj7/E" (ignoring the pedantic SOB part of my brain saying "the moron is playing Em because the bass player is playing an E") and let it go. The real problem is when he's playing Cmaj7/E (Em and bass player playing an E), and you actually (or the song requires it) want it to be C7. Most of the guitar players I run into with this problem are in (can I say "white" here?) modern worship settings, where dominant 7th chords are so rarely called for that it's fortunately never an issue. "Diabolus in musica" back from the dead, I guess... Nah, it's not that. Some of them just don't listen the keys, they listen to the bass player, and if the bass player is playing an E, then it must be an E chord. I have played with guitar players who can really play their style (rock,blues etc), but when it comes to playing a bit more sophisticated chords ( and I'm not talking some crazy jazz stuff, I'm talking basic inversions, with added VII or IX, or augmented/diminished chords ) all hell breaks lose. I have met too many of them like this for it to be a coincidence. They are making them somewhere, it's a conspiracy to annoy the keyboard players Custom handmade clocks: www.etsy.com/shop/ClockLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
area51recording Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 My other fav guitar thang is guys who do the "E chord-E scale A chord- A scale etc" thing whilst soloing, completely ignoring the song's basic tonality. Nothing like hearing all those major 7ths in a solo when at the very least it should be mixolydian.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I'm cringing through songs and afterwards the drummer comes out with "that's the best we ever sounded on that song". Then I have to contradict him and say, "sorry.....this, this and this was off, we need to do it again" Sounds like your ear is better than your drummer's also. I can't tell if this is a typical problem. If it is, and the rest of the band isn't at the level you are ... you have three choices: 1 Live with it. 2 Continue to point out errors, and risk becoming the schoolteacher/ogre of the band. 3 Wait for them to grow up. 4 Find a new group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoodyBluesKeys Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 How do you get a guitarist to turn down his amp? Uh - sawed-off 12 gauge always works well; gives a couple of options (shoot amp, shoot guitarist). Down here in Eastern NC, is usually happens when a really BIG dude walks up to the stage and asks the gi-tar player if he has the tuning knobs sawed off of his guitar. When the gi-tar player asks why - the big dude tells hem where he is gonna shove the gitarist's gitar, and says it won't hurt so much. Oh my, Tom will be saying my redneck side is gettin' stronger again. Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resigned Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 We had a problem with the guitarist at my church until I mentioned that maybe we should all go to IEM's. He freaked out, not wanting to deal with the cords, headphones, hassles while playing... but it was too late. When the church pastors realized they'd get full control over the volume by eliminating the wedge monitors the snowball started downhill. Money was raised, models decided upon and units were ordered in record time (less than a week). Amazing what a well-dropped hint can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Uh - sawed-off 12 gauge always works well; gives a couple of options (shoot amp, shoot guitarist). You need to aim where it hurts - I'd aim for the guitar. Loved the really big guy anecdote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
area51recording Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I don't know if anyone's posted this yet...but the best way to get a guitarist to turn down is...... put a chart in front of him Ba-dum-bum! Thanks! I'll be here all week....try the veal.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 The guitar player in my old band had the opposite problem with similar results. He was very strong technically, but not a very good ear. So he'd play something wrong and you bring it to his attention, and he'd start giving you "well, based on the phrasing leading up to that and the fact that it's in such & such mode, it should resolve on an A". Maybe so, but that's not how they wrote it! Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clpete Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Get a load of this guitar player's ego. CLICK LINK We play for free. We get paid to set up and tear down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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