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Drums Question


MIDIdiot

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I wanted to know what folks think about getting a kid an electronic set vs regular set... to learn on...

Any direction/advice appreciated...

 

Thanks.

 

That's a good question.

 

It seems to me that anyone learning to play drums would want the natural feel of real drums and the longer decay of real cymbals. Best to learn on the real thing so that he can compare that experience to playing pads.

 

OTOH, there are many things one can learn about percussion and timing through using pads to trigger sounds, recording the MIDI events and studying them.

 

But is that a second level training (or 3rd)?

 

Of course, with pads, he can practice using headphones without disturbing others in the house. That's a big positive when it comes to electronics.

 

I think he needs both! :thu::)

 

Tom

 

"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
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You cannot beat an electronic kit to learn on. My wife wants to play drums, and is intimidated by the fact that other people can hear her mistakes, so she does not practice enough. I'm buying an electronic kit, so she can slap on the earphones and disappear into her own little world. I liked the Roland (H1 maybe? HR1? whatever...) but I'm probably going with an Alesis kit, because how much should I spend to start? If she gets good, I'll buy something better, just like I did with guitars.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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When my old drummers had their kits here at various points, I tried messing around with them (the kits, not the drummers) but never could get into it. I wondered if the volume intimidated me, especially after my tinnitus kicked in. In that regard, electronic drums would be the way to go, you can play as "loud" dynamically as you want, but keep the volume at a reasonable level or play with head/earphones.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Just had to deal with this. My nephew, despite all my work to the contrary, decided he wanted to take up the drums. I have to admit, he does have a good sense of timing and some real dedication. I suggested to my brother, his dad, that he get an electronic set first. It seems to have worked. Because he is not driving others out of the house with it, he practiced a lot. After two years now, he has his first acoustic set and knows how to play it. More than that he appreciates that he had to earn it and work up to it. Win/win all the way around.
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Is there a drum forum?

 

Most drummers can't read, which renders a forum useless. Sorry, tasteless stab.

 

If you go electric, I would highly recommend the mesh pads (whether Roland, Pintech, whatever). Probably still really need acoustic HH/Cymbals to learn properly. Real drums would be better for learning, but good electrics can be OK. If you are concerned with noise level, they make those "sound-off" pads for acoustic drums for practicing quietly, but that's probably no better than playing electrics.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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As mentioned, the newer Rolands have much better pads, and are pretty close to the real thing, without the real volume.

Nice to have the flexibility an electronic kit brings in being able to try out different styles (percussion, Latin American, etc) as well.

What we record in life, echoes in eternity.

 

MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg.

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Is there a drum forum? The only one I see is in archives. I wanted to know what folks think about getting a kid an electronic set vs regular set... to learn on...

A few reasons why the electronic set is a great idea:

 

An electronic set will cost less

An electronic set will have a variety of sounds, which is likely to generate more interest (as Dan noted above)

Here's the big one though...headphone out. :thu:

 

dB

:snax:

 

:keys:==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <==:rawk:

 

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Is there a drum forum?
Now that I think about it, on a drum forum you're probably going to get a lot of "purists" who would recommend against electronic drums. I asked a former drummer a few months ago about them, and his reply was "yeah, but" and then complained about the feel, etc. He proceeded to give me a lot of good advice about buying acoustic drums which I've filed in case I ever go that route.

 

His points were valid to a degree, but there are a lot of drummers playing electronic drums and as stated above, there are a lot of advantages especially when starting out.

 

Another time I asked another drummer about them, and he said he wouldn't, because "they look gay." :rolleyes:

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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Get an acoustic drum set ... even one that is basic. ... if you want the kid to love and learn drums.

 

If you want the kid to know a few drum patterns and rudiments ... get an electronic set.

 

Interacting physically with a cymbal or hi-hat can happen in a myriad of ways ... only a few of which are captured by drum triggers. There's a magic in it ... and it's the magic that will hook the kid in. It's the magic that keeps the kid practicing. Later, sure an electronic set is great for practice and for trying different tricks. You can't be a musician until you are obsessively hooked.

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I think an electronic kit is fine for learning drumset coordination, may I recommend "A Funky Primer for the Rock Drummer" - starts out very simple, but gets you moving your right foot and left hand around soon enough - great book!

 

However....for learning the drum rudiments, double strokes, etc. and how an acoustic drum actually responds dynamically, get a real snare drum for that.

 

No need to use the snare when doing coordination practice on the set though, just use the snare pad.

 

Next get a real ride cymbal... same reasons

 

Also if you want to learn to play acoustic jazz then you need to realize that jazz drummers that still know how to blend with piano and acoustic bass play with a extremely light touch. They learn a dynamic range that is completely different than a rock drummer's dynamic range. So....use a kit setup that has a pleasing tone in the light range of playing otherwise you are going to be hitting the pads hard just to make them sound good to your ears.

 

Again if progress looks promising, go ahead and get a real kit to learn the true dynamic range of acoustic drums.

 

 

 

Day

"It is a danger to create something and risk rejection. It is a greater danger to create nothing and allow mediocrity to rule."

"You owe it to us all to get on with what you're good at." W.H. Auden

 

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"Interacting physically with a cymbal or hi-hat can happen in a myriad of ways ... only a few of which are captured by drum triggers. "

 

This is true, but not relevant for a starter, who is just trying to absorb the concept of where the 1 is.

 

" It's the magic that keeps the kid practicing."

 

Personally, I think that it is the desire. I mean, I could not afford an even half-way decent guitar until more than ten years after I started playing, and I've been playing now for over 40 years.

 

What you say is true about feel etc, but is he going to get a DW kit to start? Meanwhile, with an electronic kit he can at least load in the samples of a really really great acoustic kit.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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You don't want a kid learning paradiddles on an electronic pad anymore than you want a kid doing Hanon on a synth keyboard. At the very least I would start a kid with a real snare drum. I'd get an electronic kit once they've proven enough interest (translate: practice discipline)to show some technical competence.

 

The electronic kit allows for a ton of conveniences, along with creative outlets not afforded by real drums. 'Best to be exposed to both worlds, and not let them grow up with the prejudice that one is better than the other. IMHO, guitarists, keyboard players, bass players & drummers tend to be better musicians if they have a real appreciation for both acoustic & electric versions of their instrument.

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I find it interesting that the advice for the beginning drummer is to get an electronic kit, but for the beginning pianist is to get a real piano.

 

:snax:

 

All depends what the OP's buddies pain threshold is. :deadhorse: (horse skin in A)

What we record in life, echoes in eternity.

 

MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg.

https://www.abandoned-film.com

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My wife wants to play drums, and is intimidated by the fact that other people can hear her mistakes, so she does not practice enough.

 

Bill, this is the 21st century and there are all kinds of new treatments available. I would guess there will be a cure within a few years. There for a while my wife played the accordion. That went away on its own. That was a close one.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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Drums are my first instrument and I started over 30 years ago on a rubber practice pad. Latter moved on to a snare drum then a full kit. When learning the basic strokes, rudiments and coordination, pads (electronic or the old school practice pads) are great. But for developing touch/dynamics, acoustics drums are a must. With that in mind, if I was starting on drums today, I get an electronic kit for practicing the strokes and coordination and an acoustic snare and ride cymbal for developing touch. Be sure to get him/her some brushes too!
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"You don't want a kid learning paradiddles on an electronic pad ..."

 

"Drums are my first instrument and I started over 30 years ago on a rubber practice pad. "

 

I was going to say the same thing. When I started, we were not allowed anywhere near a real drum. We beat on little rubber squares mounted on slant boards. To a metronome. Paradiddles etc were perfected first. This is why I have no problem with the electronic kits with rubber pads on most of the drums. I still think that the mesh pads are nicer, and I'll probably make sure that she has at least a mesh snare.

 

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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I had been playing drums for 45 years before I had to stop, I also used a rubber practice pad to learn all the rudiments AND learn to read, to play in orchestra's and pit bands. After the rudiments were down, I started when I was 10, I played a snare and in the months to come a 7 piece kit. Don't even think about buying an electronic kit, they are extremely good but drastically different from playing an acoustic set. Kids would come over and want to learn to play drums, I told them to bring a song they wanted to learn. They didn't even know how to keep a beat but they wanted to play the song.
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The whole thing about a drum is you hit it and it makes a big noise. Grunt. Ug. ooo. Smash! OOga Booga!

 

Electronic drums defeat the whole purpose.

 

not with headphones and a monster drum sample library

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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"Don't even think about buying an electronic kit, they are extremely good but drastically different from playing an acoustic set. "

 

You know, I see these kinds of things said, and I think about where I am now with playing guitar, and I'm sure that you're in the same pace with drums and most of the well-seasoned keyboard players are in the same place with keys.... put a guitar in my hands, and I'm gonna play it. I don't care if it is a Stella or a Santa Cruz, and I don't care if it only has 5 strings.... I'm gonna play it, and we're gonna have music.

 

Now, I played drums all through high school (even though I played guitar longer..) and yeah, given my druthers, I'll play a well-maintained acoustic kit. But I've been playing on little rubber pads since MIDI came about, and I really don't care that much....MIDI gives me a lot of flexibility and sound choices far beyond anything I could achieve without it. If the compromise is to give up a little 'feel', well, I'm okay with that. And a beginner wouldn't have any prior knowledge of any other way, and probably couldn't afford a kit that was worth playing anyway. And if they did, they'd likely not know how to set it up properly anyway.

 

I definitely see the point to an acoustic kit... after all, that is what I have now. But I don't know if it is the best choice for a beginner, and I'm sure that it is not the best choice for anyone else living in the same house!

 

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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I'm a total synth geek & electronic drumming geek, but I err on the Dave Horne side of the fence when it comes to learning an instrument. I'm a better synthesist & keyboard player than I am a pianist, but I'm also a better synthesist & keyboard player BECAUSE I started on piano.

 

Ever noticed how kids who've grown up using a calculator can't do simple arithemetic in their head? I know scores of guitarists who can't fingerpick to save their life, and in each case they started learning Jimmy Page licks without ever having taken a lesson on a a nylon string.

 

I very much encourage exposing kids to electronics, but after they've proven a devotion to the craft. Otherwise electronics will be a toy instead of a tool.

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I'm a total synth geek & electronic drumming geek, ....

 

what do you like in a drum software? I'm looking to change.

 

I saw your other post about this. 'Hope you get your authorization woes started out. I use Superior 2.0 (also from Toontrack). I have the DFHS library, the Custom Vintage library & the NY Avatar (or whatever it's called) library. About 80 gig worth of drum samples. I trigger it from a Trapkat controller. I like the setup a lot.

 

I'm finishing up a CD for an artist that used a live drummer. Using Sonar's Audiosnap, I replaced most of the kick & snare tracks & some of the tom tracks with samples from the Superior library. I don't have the room, the mics & evidently the engineering chops to make acoustic drums sound as good as they do in Superior 2.0.

 

The biggest difference in Superior compared to your EZ Drummer is that the Superior sounds are not processed. They're raw, but you have twekability for days with it.

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www.gmma.biz

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I'm mainly a drummer, and I will fully advocate acoustic drums all the way. I recently made the plunge to get a set of electronic drums for gigging/practice, and while they're good, they are not good for learning. Depending on the electronic drums you get (I have the yamaha dtxpress), the level of dynamic control you get goes from 0 to 50, out of 100. I've met some drummers who taught themselves on electric kits, and they don't know dynamics and some stick strokes that usually don't get picked up on electric drums will get picked up by the acoustics, and usually do not sound too well. I will say, though, that if electronics are the ONLY option, than the $4000 rolands will feel and sound much more realistic than the $600 yamahas/rolands. Another really big, important thing, reiterating something mentioned in an earlier post, with electronic drums, I know that when I got mine, some low end models are noted for having more "fun" sounds than real sounds. It's like the kids who learn on a toys r us casio. They're spend more time messing with the sounds than actually learning to play.

 

I would say that it is pretty much like the whole ongoing keyboard vs. piano discussion. If you want to learn piano, you either use an acoustic, or get something with really good action. I learned from that mistake when I started teaching myself on a 61 key synth. As soon as I got an S80, i started to get wrist problems.

 

Bottom line- Electronic drums have their advantages for drummers, but it is imperative to start on acoustics!

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