Runs

[TaurusT]

Let's say you're improvising. Pick two notes. X, which is the beginning of an improvised phrase. And Y, which is the ending of the improvised phrase.

 

And you think "now i want to get from note X (which is for example a fifth of the fourth octave) to note Y (for example a major third from the sixth octave), and run towards it with scale-running and then hit that major third as the last note.

 

Imagine all that these notes played in between X and Y are played continuously after eachother in a fast manner (as you do with scale-running).

 

My question is, how do you people approach this when thinking about the quantized /duration / grid?

 

*METHOD 1* I mean, do you make SURE you have an ideal number of notes in these runs between X and Y just so you can fit them all in a perfectly quantized grid and end up at note Y? (think Bach runs, who are often locked to the grid).

 

*METHOD 2* Or do you picture in your mind "ok, i just have to get from X to Y within XXXX amount of time, I don't count -how many- notes I have to play to get there, nor do I care about the grid/positioning of the notes I'm going to play, I just rush my notes through it and whatever I do make sure that I end up at note Y, the major third" ?

 

Method 2 really makes me feel like my playing is "fake". It almost feels as if I was too lazy to count how many notes would theoritically actually fit in the timegrid, and thus, I simply rushed through it as long as I ended on the the Y note in the end. But what do you do/think?

 

 

[Dave Horne]

I used to get my slide rule and use that. Nowadays I find a hand held calculator is more suitable in situations such as this.

 

I think the more accurate answer comes with a lot of practice.

 

(Since you used Bach as being locked to the grid, I suppose Chopin would be more in the other direction?)

[Tusker]

It's a really good question ...

 

*METHOD 1* - I am aware of some timing relationships in 8 note scales: for example each octave adds a note if playing 8 note fragment in an 8 notes scale: In C major, one 8 note fragment takes you from B to C, (one octave run) while two 8 note fragments take you from A to B to C. (a two octave run). A solo made only of 8 note scales turns boring, but there are moments when you want to construct part of a solo with scales. Frankly, I don't think about this consciously while soloing, but there is a general awareness of the math implications.

 

There is also the math of doing 3:2 rhythmic patterns (like drum rudiments) to keep things interesting. Some of those are a pleasant relief from the "Bach" approach.

 

*METHOD 2* Tuples and spaces(rests) are our friends. Do a tuple early in the solo so that when you are forced to fill in a gap later, it's interpreted as a callback to the previous tuple. Spaces if placed early can be recalled to serve the same function. I guess this is the Chopin method Dave alluded to.

 

I don't think there is a right answer per se. Watching to see what tricks others mention ...

[J. Dan]

You know, this is interesting because I never really disected it that much and when I really think about it, I'm not really sure exactly what I do, but it always works out. I guess if I'm short on notes in the scale I skip intervals to get to my destination, and if I have too many, I backtrack and replay portions of the scale. But I don't really plan any of it out, it just kind of happens.

 

I do usually have a pretty good idea of certain phrases I'm going to do that I'll almost learn note for note for consistancy, but I'll connect them with different combinations of scales and pauses depending on how I'm feeling.

[bloodyMary]

I just play whatever comes out. Sometimes I do a 16th/32th run up/down the blues scale. Sometimes it's swinging 8th notes. Sometimes I just slide or bend towards the destintion note.

 

Unfortunately, many times while improvising I stick to prefab phrases, 'licks', and I feel that my improv solos are too 'clische'.

 

 

In my opinion, good improv is when you come up with a melodic idea, not some technical pattern ('la-la-laaaa-ua-pa-pa-rapa' as opposed to 'ok, I'll do a scale run in 16th triplets, do a guitar bend from 7th to root' etc)

[B3_borne]

I too just play "whatever comes out".

 

If I start thinking about what I'm doing it starts to sound forced. I kinda put my mind in neutral and go with what I'm feeling based on what the rest of the band is doing and the groove that's happening.

[jarrell]

What works for me is to not consciously think much during a solo - my best soloing is when I am more a listener. I think the idea is that when you practice, part of what you do is learn scales, licks, patterns, etc., so that is when you would work on methods 1, 2 and more. Then you practice applying these things in different ways (i.e. try method 2, stop and analyze what you did, vary it, etc.), and then you practice soloing. When I solo I try and trust my instincts, so I guess you could say the subconscious mind is making these decisions, and if it has learned and absorbed enough, you get to listen to a good solo. Implicit in this is that learning is an iterative process: you work on stuff, then you try it out, then you analyze and critique it, finally repeat the whole process (for the rest of your life :-)

 

[VLH]

I think the Chopin reference is great. Take a look at any of the Nocturnes and some of the Mazurkas, for example, and you'll find lots of unusual numbers of notes over a patterned bass. My teacher had me learn these by first dividing them into easily playable units of 2, 3 , or 4 notes over the patterned bass. (Eg, you might need to divide a 13-note phrase into 3 groups of 3 and one of 4. After they were comfortable in my fingers, she had me "undo" the even divisions and spread the notes out naturally (not necessarily equally) over the patterned bass. Her words were always, "You must make this sound very improviZATory." (Her pronuniciation.) Acheiving this improvisatory feel eventually required what you were talking about--knowing where to coordinate the starting and ending points, and letting the fingers move naturally in between those. However, you have to have a way of practicing that lets the notes feel natural. This means you don't want to have to be struggling with the rhythm at the same time as you are getting the notes comfortably under your fingers, which is why breaking the odd number up into easily counted chunks is better (at least was better for me)than trying to evenly split 13 over 8, for example.

 

So, for what you are talking about, you may want to practice the patterns you would eventually like to roll out naturally in various permuations until you only need to think about the beginning and end and can then spread them equally out over the duration between start and end.

[Jazz+]

Good question...

 

As I approach the target note, in time, I subconsiously add extra chromatic passing tones when I feel they are needed to make the phrase "come out right" (land on my target note). Sometimes I get there too early and that results in an "anticipation" which is not a problem. Also, I might subconsiously leave out some of the scale tones in order to arrive sooner at the target note on time. Or as I approach the target use an "enclosure" or "surround tone" shape to delay the arrival. These judgements are done on the fly although it can be practiced by slowing things down and listening and sensing the distances. These are valuable skills to have when improvising.

 

Playing rubato or with odd rhythmic groupings makes it easy, you can easily decrease or increase the note quantities. Or accelerate and deaccelrate within the run to make come out right.

[marino]

In my experience, a satisfying run is almost never composed by even-spaced notes, even when played at light speed. Very often I play (and hear in others' playing) some kind of acceleration after the start, and some kind of slight slowing down during the last few notes.

Dynamics can play a role too, and of course the choice of notes. Sometimes an all-diatonic run is appropriate, sometimes can be quite boring. A few chromatic tones can help, or even switching to some other scale/mode, or to an arpeggio. I wouldn't overdo any of them, though. Chromatic scales, in particular, can sound even more boring than diatonic ones when going for more than 5-6 semitones. The key word is variety.

 

 

[Bridog6996]

Like everybody else, I don't really think about it too much. During practice time, I'll work on different scale patterns, runs, licks and such, but only to try and incorporate them in my sonic vocabulary. When it comes to actually playing, I try not to think about it at all, but if anything, it's about trying to execute what I'm hearing in my head, not "I have to get to this particular note in x-number of beats." So I guess for me the idea of a starting point leading to a destination doesn't so much factor into the equation, since my only "destination" is the next note I'm going to play, if that makes any sense.

[zephonic]

to quote Herbie Hancock: "if it doesn't swing, why bother?"

 

Words to live by. Just my $0.02

[Musicale]

Interesting.

 

I need to think about it, maybe if you have to think about it rather than play by what feels / sounds good, it makes it well different. Is it related to singing, you know the way somebody like Sinatra phrases vs another vocalist singing the same song (without trying to cover Sinatra). Maybe like some have said, it's not the notes that you play, but the space time between them. Wow, that sounds like Einstein.

 

Regards,

 

Musicale

[mate stubb]

Learn the bebop scale. It has 8 steps instead of 7, and the root and fifth tones naturally fall on the beat. For instance, playing a C major normal scale you have:

 

C D E F G A B C

 

and for the bebop scale, add the flatted 7th:

 

C D E F G A Bb B C

 

Try it!

[orangefunk]

Does the bebop scale change on every chord change, or is it meant to last a few measures? (or even the whole song?)..

 

Whenever I attempted (attempted being the word!) stuff like Au Private, I was never really sure how the scale worked... some scholars say only play it downwards (I think David Baker mentions this) whereas some literature mentions it can be used up/down. In the end I would stick to a lot of chord tone playing mixed with blues licks which kind of works but isn't very satisfying...

 

 

 

[SK]

orangefunk, the helpful scale Mate posted is one scale that works for C7 (or C7 based chords like C9, C11, C13) and it also works as a scale over the fifth (G) as a minor chord: Gminor 7, Gmin9, Gmin11, Gmin13.

 

Just transpose it for other keys/chords, both major and minor. For instance, the same scale in F also works for C minor, etc., etc. C being the fifth of F.

 

The scale is a system that gives you a choice of notes to choose from. It doesn't have to be played in one direction, up or down. You can use any combination of those tones to create rhythmic, melodic lines, which was a basis for bebop. Or, you can play the scale straight, usually going down, played fast.

 

"Try it!"

[orangefunk]

Thanks for that.. So it works over the II-V changes that are in a lot of songs...

[mate stubb]

But the real point of that scale is that it allows you to naturally divide your runs into groups of 4 notes.

 

You keep it "inside" versus "outside" by hitting root and fifth notes on the strong beats. You can go outside for several measures, and bring it back when you want by returning to that technique.