Smooth Jazz piano processing

[fb000]

what are standard practices for recording smooth jazz piano?

 

i.e.>>>>>on smooth jazz album solos obviously use lots of octaves (c3c2) but is common to use delay?

 

In other words what contributes to that distinct character of the piano on solos? (other than melodic content and players ability)

[Bobadohshe]

Are you talking about recording techniques or are you talking about stylistic practices as a performer? Those are two different issues.

[magronbass]

actually.. I have a question about smooth jazz too.. what's a good one that's actually musically significant? I mean, I see it potentially being good, but haven't put any effort into mapping out the genre.

 

my take on smooth jazz pianos, is just going up and down dorian minor, and occasionally throwing in a blue note. Generally playing vocal like phrases.

 

That's pretty much the extent of the stuff I hear.. There's so much bad smooth jazz out there.. You couldn't tell if it was a human, or some machine just pumping out cheap stock music. I'm sure there are good ones out there.. but there's so much crap, the good ones just get burried. I don't mean to disrspect anyone who's seriously trying to further the smooth jazz/ fusion genre..

[timwat]

I may be the only guy willing to cop to playing smooth jazz, so here's my very limited take on the genre. Full disclosure, I used to have your typical nose-in-the-air about the entire genre, then joined this band and am having real fun with guys who turned out to be really good friends. So I didn't grow up listening to the genre or watching it develop closely, and can't be considered an expert.

 

OK, it seems to me that 'smooth jazz' as a genre is sort of a grab bag in search of an identity. Different smooth jazz radio stations can't agree on what the genre includes or doesn't. Some folks focus on the Kenny G / Dave Koz / Brian Culbertson version, while others will reach back to Spyro Gyra and Grover Washington Jr., and others yet will include Jeff Lorber, Rippingtons and even Pat Metheny Group. Some describe the genre as a return to make jazz danceable and popular again (like it was before bebop). Like any other genre discussion, your opinions and mileage may vary.

 

As for our little band, the set list stretches wide - Spyro Gyra's Morning Dance and Shaker Song, PMG's Last Train Home and James, Stevie's As and Overjoyed, Ronnie Laws, Dave Koz, David Benoit...sometimes it seems like a kitchen sink approach to the genre, but most of our audiences seem to like what we do.

 

If you're looking for representative keyboard work outside the "repetitive machine loop" brand of smooth jazz, probably David Benoit, Bob James, FourPlay and Gregg Karukas would get you started.

 

 

 

[Dave Horne]

Are you talking about recording techniques or are you talking about stylistic practices as a performer? Those are two different issues.

 

That was what I was thinking as well.

 

Could someone define for me what exactly smooth jazz is.

[ProfD]

Could someone define for me what exactly smooth jazz is.

Tim just gave a very good overview of the confusion associated with Smooth Jazz.

 

IMO, it is instrumental Pop music.

 

Of course, I give the genre a hard time mainly because I do not care for how the lead instruments especially horns and guitars are used in that context. Also, the mix generally sounds too much like muzak.

 

To the OP, the piano is processed with delay and reverb.

[Dave Horne]

... so it's harmonically less complicated than jazz and uses less chords per eight bars than jazz ...?

 

... one chord change per measure, per two measures ...?

 

?

[delirium]

Could someone define for me what exactly smooth jazz is.

 

smooth jazz is that one nobody wants to listen to...

 

 

[Dave Horne]

... first laugh of the day. Thanks!

[Musicale]

This is the stuff of elevator fame.

 

Regards,

[burningbusch]

I seem to recall a photo of Brian Culbertson's recording setup and he had a pair of large diaphragm mics right outside the piano pointing in, lid up. So not close mic as you might for R&R. Especially if the piano is the main instrument, you can go after a fuller sound.

 

Busch.

[SpaceNorman]

I may be the only guy willing to cop to playing smooth jazz...

 

You are definitely NOT alone! Back in March, a keyboard player I work with in my day gig passed my digits along to a guy who had contacted him about a smooth jazz gig. I got a call, went and sat in for one of their practices - and have been playing with them ever since. We're a five piece - bass, drums, guitar, keys and sax - and doing stuff from most of the artists you mentioned (Spyra Gryo, Grover Washington Jr., Jeff Lorber, Jeff Golub, Chuck Loeb, Fattburger, etc.)

 

Truth be told - I'm having more fun with my "smooth jazz" project than I've ever had before. My bandmates in the project are great guys. They all have a ton of experience and are strong musicians (in stark contrast to all my other projects - at 52, I'm the "kid" in this project!). They're patient and have all been very cool about helping me work into the genre. Best of all - I'm learning! These guys do alot with charts (something I rarely if ever do in my other projects) - so I'm starting to actually read a little. Plus I get to actually use some of those chords and voicings that the guys in my pop/rock project made me promise to never play again!

 

Unfortunately, gigs are few and far between - but at this point, I don't really care - I look forward to my weekly rehearsal with my smooth jazz project more than I've looked forward to rehearsals in years!

 

[Bobadohshe]

As far as recording goes, you have to have the piano waaaay out front in the mix. Nice preamps, beefy rich piano sound, delay but not too much, and compression. You don't want to sound like you're in a big hall or anything. But the piano has to be loud enough that you can play single note lead lines and have them sound huge. And you need that compression so that when you play big chords they aren't too much louder than your single notes.

[montunoman]

My main issue with this style is the name "smooth jazz" I don't hear the jazz part of it. ProfD said it right "instrumental pop"

[zephonic]

To me, Smooth Jazz is simply jazzed-up, instrumental R&B. The funny thing is that you need to have a pretty good grasp of the jazz tradition in order to play it right.

Sure, there's a sizable amount of garbage out there, but fortunately there's plenty of talented musicians who really bring depth and sophistication to the table. For pianists, I'd recommend Kim Pensyl, Brian Simpson, Greg Karukas and on the funky side of the spectrum Bobby Lyle.

 

Bobadoshe makes a good point about compression, but be sure that the compressor doesn't "pump" (unless that's the effect you're after) and/or kill all the transients.

 

 

[delirium]

My main issue with this style is the name "smooth jazz" I don't hear the jazz part of it. ProfD said it right "instrumental pop"

 

absolutely not, pop music I like...

[timwat]

zephonic:

 

I was just in the middle of typing up a long response about "instrumental R&B" and didn't think anyone would care.

 

You're absolutely right about that description - that's the same conclusion we've reached. My sax player and I do a lot of Real Book gigs on the side, and have found that what the band does requires both a jazz sensibility and R&B groove aesthetic.

 

I've also found very few other bands trying to do this stuff live, and do it well. It makes gigs less frequent than rock, pop and other bands I've played in. But I've also found much more responsive audiences than in any other band I've been in.

 

To add to Bobadoshe's comments, I also hear a fair amount of reverb in a lot of recorded SJ piano - shorter decay time but wetter saturation than you might use for other genres. Regarding compression, I find that playing live there's so much compression built into the keys anyway, that I don't find it necessary.

 

SpaceNorman - good to find anther SJ player here on the forum. I thought I'd be sitting on the dunce chair in the corner all by myself.

[Jazz+]

Add my favorite player in the smooth jazz genre to your list:

Joe Sample

 

Smooth jazz piano recording is done just like other piano recordings. The goal is to get the best recording quality possible.

[ProfD]

My main issue with this style is the name "smooth jazz" I don't hear the jazz part of it. ProfD said it right "instrumental pop"

 

absolutely not, pop music I like...

Take any Pop song from the Top 100 you don't like, make it instrumental and you'll have Smooth Jazz.

[magronbass]

yeah, agree with many of the posts regarding instrumental pop. There seems to be a confusion with that, and fusion. For me spyro gyra and the likes are fusion, pat methany band too.. And then there's weather forcasting music (not related to the band weather report) with its pop melody and "fusion - like" comping.. that's more of the muzak tradition...

 

I do recall some buddies in japan saying that the muzak people pump that stuff out so fast, like dozens per recording session, so it's not surprising that most of them revert to nearly automated comping styles... but givent the context, supermarkets in general, it probably doesn't matter as long as the top 20 pop chart melody line is recognizable.

 

In terms of the piano sound, it seems to me that it's very bright, and doesn't really have much bass end. I recall hearing lots of low register zinging, without the muck. And the releases were pretty tight also, so probably not too much reverb drenching. Seems mostly dry and in your face, sort of like how you'd mix pop vocals. But that's just from my limited understanding. I think it's worth experimenting though, just like how pat methany built his signature sound.

 

Given the genre's loose confines though, I think one can do a lot of interesting things.. perhaps it's the lack of definition that makes it hard to latch on to.

[fb000]

Thanks for the responses...I see the room is divided emotionally with regards to the genre. Personally I respect any music that is created from within from a person who desires to master their craft....

 

I was mainly asking about the recording aspects..but all that has been mentioned is interesting.

 

As far as recording goes, you have to have the piano waaaay out front in the mix. Nice preamps, beefy rich piano sound, delay but not too much, and compression. You don't want to sound like you're in a big hall or anything. But the piano has to be loud enough that you can play single note lead lines and have them sound huge. And you need that compression so that when you play big chords they aren't too much louder than your single notes.

 

 

What would be a good starting point for delay and reverb settings?

 

And compression for that matter? (maybe 4:1 medium threshold 3db of gr?)

[cnegrad]

Space Norman:

 

'passed my digits to a friend...'

 

Wow, sounds painful. People really say that? I must be getting old; but OTOH, you're a few years older than me. Or is that something that only 'smooth jazzers' say to each other...

[SpaceNorman]

Space Norman:

 

'passed my digits to a friend...'

 

Wow, sounds painful. People really say that? I must be getting old; but OTOH, you're a few years older than me. Or is that something that only 'smooth jazzers' say to each other...

 

Yeah I suppose it could hurt. Chalk the twist of phrase up to having teenage kids.