What Happens To Young Musicians?

[delirium]

they don't want to be virtuoso anymore, they don't play stunning solos, they don't get high, they don't look cool on stage...

 

all they do after buying an arranger keyboard is pressing transpose button along with arpeggiator very often followed by play button... Fortunately many keyboards are still missing the applause button :grin:

 

 

since it's Friday already time to relax, and look the truth into eyes...

 

 

[Mr. Nightime]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2197/1934228569_51540e6412_o.jpg

[B3bluesman59]

Seeing that pic of Paul Revere reminded me of how great a show they put on. They are a comic/rock oldies band...with Revere the master showman. Those guys in his band have been with him forever and Revere told me that they never rehearse, never use a set list, and his big pleasure in playing is trying to "stump the band" by calling out songs that they may have never played or trip them up on some different arrangement. Paul says he can fool 'em maybe once or twice a year....and that is all. This band is totally entertaining and funny...and make no mistake about it....they can really play those instruments.

[linwood]

I saw Paul this past Sunday. Really good show. The band is always smokin' and Paul is so good at what he does. Like you said, he's a master showman.

[delirium]

I didn't know this is older guys forum...none of youngsters objects...

 

 

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1360/1259199716_4efeaafd7e.jpg

[gliderproarc]

As one of the youngsters, I do object to the generalization that we no longer aspire to virtuosity, can't solo worth beans, don't smoke crack, look like we just rolled out of bed...

 

And I do not hit the play button after purchasing an arranger and turning on the arpeggiator... you have to play a chord

 

What happens is we gig for a bit, and then realize... forget this, I'm going to music school.

 

Then we arrive at school and... notes? You mean like post-it notes? What's aural training? Clef? Well If it were my friends name I sure wouldn't jump off him.

 

And I'm sorry, but parallel perfect fifths are the basis of every guitar lick I know, how can they be wrong?!

 

 

 

[Morizzle]

I'm still far from being a virtuoso, so I can't play perfect fifths. I can play happy birthday in C, though.

[Dave Horne]

Are you sure you're playing in C major and not F major?

 

[ProfD]

Young musicians embrace music and technology with reckless abandon. They form bands, take good and bad gigs, rinse and repeat.

 

Eventually, many of them fall by the wayside, relegating music to a hobby once the responsibilities of family, mortgage and golf come to fruition.

 

What happens to young musicians is they get old.

[MuzikTeechur]

I find that younger musicians - high school age and just out of high school - tend to be "gear oriented." That is, they operate under the notion that if they just have the latest greatest equipment, that's all they need.

This is evidenced by many of my students who purchase the entire Musicians' Friend catalog, step outside the womb of the music department and decide they're ready to gig NOW. Don't need them scales, don't need that circle of 5ths, Teacher Man! And they end up writing songs that consist of two minor chords, usually something like Em - Dm, wash, rinse, repeat, etc. ad nauseam.

Not that you can't be successful unless you've had a formal musical training - it happens every day, but we're not all born with this knowledge and it baffles me why so many folks insist on re-inventing the wheel. Why would one prefer trial and error (a hard way to duplicate the efforts of J.S. Bach in the arena of Music Theory) to simply reading it in a book or taking a theory class?

I have seen this behavior in many, many of my students, as well as my own son who is now touring with a band down the Eastern Seaboard to Florida and back. Loud, limited, raucous, buff, expensive equipment... three chords. They're getting paid NOW, and have gigs NOW, but in two years? Who knows.

Conversely, I have had students who paid attention, took theory classes, studied privately with good teachers of their instrument(s), and it paid off. Three students in the past 5 years have gone to Berklee, and 2 to Eastman. Several have gone to "lesser" music programs in colleges and universities. One has just released her second CD. Not all due to my efforts, but I'd like to think I had a small part in their musical education.

I'm not advocating for locking oneself in a practice room for 18 years, but you need to know your way around a ii-V-I and the various modes and scales; otherwise you're playing by chance. I'm a pretty good musician, but I'm not so arrogant as to think I could have become a professional via trial and error!

 

[ProfD]

The subject of music education gets debated on this forum every 3 months or so.

 

Seriously, while it pays to "know" music, a lot of it really depends on musical goals.

 

If a musician is naturally gifted, comfortable with their ears, playing the same chords, touring, having fun, etc., that's OK.

 

OTOH, if someone wants to train for the musical olympics and/or becoming a virtuoso, that's great too.

 

Thankfully, music is not an exclusive club. There is plenty room for every kind of musician.

 

The best thing for any musician to do is be prepared for whatever they might want to do next especially as an older musician.

[SK]

There's nothing wrong with interest in technology/gear - whatever it takes to get started playing music.

 

But for a performing musician, notes are more important than buttons and sounds. Or they should be.

 

[marino]

And I'm sorry, but parallel perfect fifths are the basis of every guitar lick I know, how can they be wrong?!

 

I'd try a different music school

 

 

 

[Dave Horne]

And I'm sorry, but parallel perfect fifths are the basis of every guitar lick I know, how can they be wrong?!

 

I'd try a different music school

 

 

 

Thanks Marino, first laugh of the day!

[delirium]

I'm a pretty good musician, but I'm not so arrogant as to think I could have become a professional via trial and error!

 

I don't agree here, with art - similarly like with science - you can get far beyond your imagination via trial and error providing you have some talent, determination and predisposition.

Quite often going to school can destroy what is original and unique in you. School for me is a molding factory...

 

http://badideaindeed.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/sinhua_sexy_teacher.jpg

[Dave Horne]

I'm a pretty good musician, but I'm not so arrogant as to think I could have become a professional via trial and error!

 

I don't agree here, with art - similarly like with science - you can get far beyond your imagination via trial and error providing you have some talent, determination and predisposition.

Quite often going to school can destroy what is original and unique in you. School for me is a molding factory...

Well, I have to agree with muzikteechur. Reinventing the wheel when the language of Western music is so well understood, seems like a waste of time. Learning the basics (in any field) will not destroy anyone's originality.

 

Delirium, will we ever get a chance to hear your originality?

 

 

 

[Gismo Recording]

Are you sure you're playing in C major and not F major?

C mixolydian

 

[delirium]

I'm a pretty good musician, but I'm not so arrogant as to think I could have become a professional via trial and error!

 

I don't agree here, with art - similarly like with science - you can get far beyond your imagination via trial and error providing you have some talent, determination and predisposition.

Quite often going to school can destroy what is original and unique in you. School for me is a molding factory...

Well, I have to agree with muzikteechur. Reinventing the wheel when the language of Western music is so well understood, seems like a waste of time. Learning the basics (in any field) will not destroy anyone's originality.

 

Delirium, will we ever get a chance to hear your originality?

 

 

probably never because unfortunately I went actually to music

school, but - I avoided somehow going to army in oppose to you

so I could keep my swing...

[Dave Horne]

probably never because unfortunately I went actually to music

school, but - I avoided somehow going to army in oppose to you

so I could keep my swing...

 

Interesting. I went to music school and still managed to make music ... and a living in music. You do actually play an instrument, don't you?

 

The last half of your sentence could be taken several ways. Perhaps you could clarify it.

[Morizzle]

Are you sure you're playing in C major and not F major?

 

 

 

 

Gosh, if you harmonize with I, IV and V, you play a lydian IV chord on the first syllable of the birthday child's name. What an incredible tune.

Open question: What do you think? How high is the percentage of arranger-equipped one man bands playing "Happy Birthday" in 4/4 because they selected the "Slow Dance 1" style again?

[Eric VB]

What happens to young musicians is they get old.

+1

[Eric VB]

I find that younger musicians - high school age and just out of high school - tend to be "gear oriented." That is, they operate under the notion that if they just have the latest greatest equipment, that's all they need.

This is evidenced by many of my students who purchase the entire Musicians' Friend catalog, step outside the womb of the music department and decide they're ready to gig NOW. Don't need them scales, don't need that circle of 5ths, Teacher Man! And they end up writing songs that consist of two minor chords, usually something like Em - Dm, wash, rinse, repeat, etc. ad nauseam.

Not that you can't be successful unless you've had a formal musical training - it happens every day, but we're not all born with this knowledge and it baffles me why so many folks insist on re-inventing the wheel. Why would one prefer trial and error (a hard way to duplicate the efforts of J.S. Bach in the arena of Music Theory) to simply reading it in a book or taking a theory class?

I have seen this behavior in many, many of my students, as well as my own son who is now touring with a band down the Eastern Seaboard to Florida and back. Loud, limited, raucous, buff, expensive equipment... three chords. They're getting paid NOW, and have gigs NOW, but in two years? Who knows.

Conversely, I have had students who paid attention, took theory classes, studied privately with good teachers of their instrument(s), and it paid off. Three students in the past 5 years have gone to Berklee, and 2 to Eastman. Several have gone to "lesser" music programs in colleges and universities. One has just released her second CD. Not all due to my efforts, but I'd like to think I had a small part in their musical education.

I'm not advocating for locking oneself in a practice room for 18 years, but you need to know your way around a ii-V-I and the various modes and scales; otherwise you're playing by chance. I'm a pretty good musician, but I'm not so arrogant as to think I could have become a professional via trial and error!

Apples and oranges?

 

For the kind of pop music you're describing the music industry can't wait until you're 22 and a graduate from college/music school. The ride only goes around once and you have to grab the brass ring when you can. That's why your son is doing what he's doing. If he waits until after college he may not have the chance.

 

For jazz ("ii-V-I") and Classical it's different. In that world you give great advice: go to college immediately after high school (and graduate in 4 years). Those career paths don't end with 22-year-olds; they begin with them.

 

Is it "game over" if you don't learn music theory when you're 18? When your son is done having fun can't he study and then, for example, play standards when he's older? I don't see why not. (He may have missed his chance to play in a professional symphony orchestra, though.)

 

And there's nothing wrong with playing by ear. This very forum has a rather successful studio musician who has admitted that it's his exceptional ear that made it possible, not some deep understanding of music theory. But maybe that's another can of worms worthy of its own thread?

[Dave Horne]

Is it "game over" if you don't learn music theory when you're 18? When your son is done having fun can't he study and then, for example, play standards when he's older? I don't see why not. (He may have missed his chance to play in a professional symphony orchestra, though.)

 

And there's nothing wrong with playing by ear. This very forum has a rather successful studio musician who has admitted that it's his exceptional ear that made it possible, not some deep understanding of music theory. But maybe that's another can of worms worthy of its own thread?

 

Could this be the reason that the rock music today has the same harmonic simplicity of rock music from 40 years ago?

 

I see the music groups featured on Letterman in the show's last five minutes and it's usually the same - simple chords played very loudly.

 

 

[delirium]

Could this be the reason that the rock music today has the same harmonic simplicity of rock music from 40 years ago?

 

I see the music groups featured on Letterman in the show's last five minutes and it's usually the same - simple chords played very loudly.

 

Could this be the reason that the jazz music today has the same harmonic simplicity of jazz music from 40 years ago?

 

I hear this 3/6/2/5/1 progression all over again, so give me another reason...

[Morizzle]

Hey, Dave and delirium: General Ization is a baaaaad general!

 

And because nobody asked for it, here's "Happy Birthday" in 4/4.

[delirium]

Hey, Dave and delirium: General Ization is a baaaaad general!

 

that's what I was trying to say

[Eric VB]

Could this be the reason that the rock music today has the same harmonic simplicity of rock music from 40 years ago?

Irrelevant.

 

Sour grapes won't change the listening preferences of the masses. It is unfortunate that the greater effort needed to master the art musics is by and large unappreciated by listeners.

 

Ever since some music has been elevated to a fine art there has always been a division between music of the commoners and of the elite, between music of the ale houses and of the church. It is interesting to see them come together at a wedding.

 

I've been to over 50 weddings of both family and friends. Some have varied from the norm but by and large the church ceremonies featured art music (i.e. Classical), and maybe the cocktail hour of the reception as well (maybe jazz instead), but after the meal it was time to celebrate with song and dance: with popular music.

 

If the ceremony were on the long side that beautiful art music helped send some off to sleepy land. The cocktail hour music was relegated to be subordinate to conversation. How horrified do you think the composers of such music would be if they saw how their music affected and was treated by people today? Sleeping at a concert? Talking over the music at a concert?

 

At a real concert non-musicians don't go to study the musicians on stage through observation nor to analyze the music being played as if it were a master class. They go to be entertained. And they like to be included.

 

Most people like to sing and dance. (Well, based on some postings here I'd have to exclude pianists from "most people". ) Yet this is exactly what art musics avoid, even though it is a part of their pasts. For better or worse people respond to "ear worms" and will sing the most inane lyrics and dance to the most banal music. And they enjoy it tremendously over sitting still in a darkened hall where they are more likely to fall asleep due to boredom. Or walk away because they're listening to what they consider "noise" because they aren't privy to the musicians' struggle to maintain complexity at the expense of simple, "been-there-done-that" music.

 

If it weren't for school band and orchestra programs -- and traditional piano lessons -- young people would probably never have an interest in art musics. These musics simply aren't a part of their lives unless they are a part of the home in which they grow up. And sooner or later their peers will introduce them to popular music and popular music will play a part in their courting and become the "soundtrack to their life" in most cases.

 

So, yes, young musicians exposed to popular music aren't too keen on enduring the trials and tribulations of mastering art music when popular music is more accepted among their peers and plays a larger role in their lives.

[zephonic]

I don't know where y'all live, but I'm in The Hague, The Netherlands at the moment, and I can tell you that young musicians are much better than we were 10 years ago.

Some time ago I saw a bunch of conservatory freshmen play "All Blues" in 11/8 and they did so very well. Solos and whatnot.

Same in Kenya, the kids coming up now play everything their elders do and more and I've seen the general level of musicianship rise over the last five years.

 

What's more, they're eclectic in that you can see jazzcats jam with rappers on stage etc. Those of you complaining about the younger musicians....

WHEN DID YOU LAST VISIT A CLUB TO CHECK OUT THE NEW KIDS?

 

[richwhite9]

they don't want to be virtuoso anymore, they don't play stunning solos, they don't get high, they don't look cool on stage...

 

Solos are seen as 'indulgent'. I see young women walk into clubs and the minute the solos start they start yelling "boring" and leave. They want dance music not the Mars Volta at 120 DB or better. Techno is the common ground with some rap thrown in.

 

Then there's the market in much of the US that supports cover bands. Original music is for the dedicated that don't like money. You know the tortured, starving artist types. It seems there fewer venues are booking bands for live music every year and if they do go for it they go for the safe stuff (Top 40 covers). DJs are so much more cost efficient. Indy acts are always doing patchwork tours getting booked into clubs that have an average shelf life of two years before reverting to a DJ format.

 

What can you say when DJs get paid better than musicians on any given night? It definitely is not the market place that encourages great musicianship, originality, or a love of complex structure. DJs co-existed with bands in the 80s. Much less so now. Even acoustic players willing to do Happy Hours for $50 an hour have trouble getting work.

 

 

 

 

[delirium]

Solos are seen as 'indulgent'. I see young women walk into clubs and the minute the solos start they start yelling "boring" and leave. They want dance music not the Mars Volta at 120 DB or better. Techno is the common ground with some rap thrown in.

 

Then there's the market in much of the US that supports cover bands. Original music is for the dedicated that don't like money. You know the tortured, starving artist types. It seems there fewer venues are booking bands for live music every year and if they do go for it they go for the safe stuff (Top 40 covers). DJs are so much more cost efficient. Indy acts are always doing patchwork tours getting booked into clubs that have an average shelf life of two years before reverting to a DJ format.

 

What can you say when DJs get paid better than musicians on any given night? It definitely is not the market place that encourages great musicianship, originality, or a love of complex structure. DJs co-existed with bands in the 80s. Much less so now. Even acoustic players willing to do Happy Hours for $50 an hour have trouble getting work.

 

that's what I feel either - it is not a problem with musicians only but with audience too. Nobody is impressed anymore with skills, just shiny objects that matter...