Chord Naming Conventions

[Jazzwee]

I'm confused by some chord naming conventions.

 

If I see D6(9), I assume this is a major chord.

 

Then I see an F13 in the Real Book and I did not know if this was major or dominant. It would have been clearer as F7(13), but I just assumed that the voicing for F13 would be the same as F6(9) but apparently it isn't.

 

Anyway, I wasn't sure so I listened to the recording of the tune I'm working on and sure enough, I heard F13 as F7(13).

 

Confusing as heck to me. F6 is major but F13 is dominant? I see the difference in the naming (extensions used in one case).

 

What's the rule here? And is this clear to most of you? Why don't we just say FMaj6 and F7(13) so the usage is clear? Is this common or just a quirk in the Real Books?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave Horne]

There's a convention for chord naming? Sign me up!

 

For my money, a 7th, 9th, 11th or 13th implies a dominant 7th.

 

If I see D6(9), I assume this is a major chord.

 

Do you really mean a major 7th instead of a major chord? You see how I think I know what you mean may not be what you mean?

 

When I see a 9th in combination with a 6th (as you gave), I could think major or dominant 7th, but would tend to lean to the major 7th .... or just leave it out; context and my personal taste will fill in the rest - chord symbols are only a suggestion.

 

I'm sure others might have different points of view.

[kanker.]

I consider a major voicing that is described by a 9 (C9) or a 13 (C13) to be dominant. I consider 11 (C11) to be shorthand for suspended like a Bb/C. The 6/9 (C6/9) is a sort of special case because there is generally no 7 major or dominant in a 6/9.

[Jazzwee]

Do you really mean a major 7th instead of a major chord? You see how I think I know what you mean may not be what you mean?

 

Well I did think about this. There's no Seventh in a (6)(9) chord so I really didn't know if I could refer to it as a "Major Seventh". I'm sure there's classical theory to explain all this but I'm just a jazz guy. I just play the darn things

 

Thanks for the input. I'm now interpreting it like you say, though I daresay I don't understand why.

[Jazzwee]

I consider a major voicing that is described by a 9 (C9) or a 13 (C13) to be dominant. I consider 11 (C11) to be shorthand for suspended like a Bb/C. The 6/9 (C6/9) is a sort of special case because there is generally no 7 major or dominant in a 6/9.

 

It's these special cases that just boggles my mind. If a C6(9) is major, is a C6 also major? Does this fall under these exceptions?

 

To me C11 means a sub to a Cm7 so this I always guessed to have a b7 interval. Again, that's just out of frequency of encountering it. I don't know why it is so.

 

In Blues, does one refer only to C13? Not C6?

 

Thanks K.

 

 

[kanker.]

Basically, C7, dominant. CM7 or CMaj7 or C∆7 have a major 7. So, CM13, CMaj13, or C∆13, while a little odd, would imply the major 7. The convention basically being that you define that the 7 is major with the M, Maj, or ∆, and the lack of any of that means the chord is dominant.

[Jazzwee]

Basically, C7, dominant. CM7 or CMaj7 or C∆7 have a major 7. So, CM13, CMaj13, or C∆13, while a little odd, would imply the major 7. The convention basically being that you define that the 7 is major with the M, Maj, or ∆, and the lack of any of that means the chord is dominant.

 

But that contradicts what you said about C6/9 or C6(9). I've always looked at 6 as major even without the Maj/M symbol. Now I think the reason I think this is that 6 would class with b7 conceptually (although that rub is typically played in jazz).

 

 

[kanker.]

It's these special cases that just boggles my mind. If a C6(9) is major, is a C6 also major? Does this fall under these exceptions?

 

To me C11 means a sub to a Cm7 so this I always guessed to have a b7 interval. Again, that's just out of frequency of encountering it. I don't know why it is so.

 

In Blues, does one refer only to C13? Not C6?

 

Thanks K.

 

C6 is a chord that has no 7. it major because of the C to E major third. The parenthesis or slash basically equates to shorthand for add9, so the C6/9 or C6(9) is generally describing a fairly specific voicing, C, E, A, D.

 

How an extension is named tells you a lot about its function and the existence or non-existence of other notes within the voicing. While the 13 the degree and the 6th degree are the same note, they are worlds apart. The 13 exists past the 7, and therefore implies the 7 being a member of the voicing. The 6 exists before the 7, and therefore fundamentally excludes the 7 as a member of the voicing. So with a 6/9, the 6 basically lets you know that the 9 is added, and that you needn't bother with a 7 of any flavor.

[Discotheque]

Jazzwee, I think this is the clearest definition in the otherwise chaotic world of chord nomenclature: 13 is an EXTENTION, 6 is a CHORD tone. 6 replaces the 7th as the chord tone. 13 is an extention beyond the 7th. So a C6, the chord tones are C, E, G, A. A C13 is C, E, G, Bb, A (above).

 

This is my understanding of the "rules" (I use that term loosely) of naming chords. This goes for other things as well. C2 isn't the same as C9. C2, the D replaces the E, C9, well you get the picture I think.

 

Personally I can't recall ever seeing an "11" chord unless it was a minor 11. At least not in jazz.

[Jazzwee]

K., I understand your explanation though I daresay that I wish more blatant statement of function would be clearer.

 

I vote for F7(13) instead of F13. I'm so conditioned to look for the 7 (for obvious scale/soloing issues) that the shorthand approach looks cryptic. Would I be "unprofessional" in writing music as F7(13) instead of F13? Does your explanation invalidate any other form?

 

Dave H., maybe if I just stuck to Tin Pan Alley ii-V-I standards, I wouldn't have to worry about F13 references?

 

 

[SK]

Personally I can't recall ever seeing an "11" chord unless it was a minor 11. At least not in jazz.

11th chords are also common in jazz, or music in general, although they're sometimes written as sus chords (suspensions).

 

The idea of the 13th as an extension is correct - The dominant 7th extends to a 9th, a 9th to an 11th, and then to a 13th. As said, the 6th is not the same as the 13th.

 

So Jazzwee, the 13th is built on the 7th, 9th and 11th, and implies that they are there - whether they're played or not. Think of each of them as a fancy, increasingly more expressive 7th chord.

 

 

[Jazzwee]

well you get the picture I think.

 

Personally I can't recall ever seeing an "11" chord unless it was a minor 11. At least not in jazz.

 

Thanks Disco. I think I understand the picture but I can't say it's intuitive.

 

I do agree that I haven't encountered an unaltered C11. But C7(#11) or C7(+11) is pretty common, so how does the rule work in altered extensions.

 

I have never seen a C#11 or C+11 to equate to C7(#11). That would really confuse the hell out of me. So is there an addendum to this rule that alterations are not part of the rule?

 

 

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

So Jazzwee, the 13th is built on the 7th, 9th and 11th, and implies that they are there - whether they're played or not. Think of each of them as a fancy, increasingly more expressive 7th chord.

 

 

Thanks SK. Fortunately the understanding the extension wasn't the issue. It was the implication of b7 vs. Maj7 that was unclear and the fact that I was wondering if alternative naming conventions would be more intuitive (where the quality of the 7th was clearly stated).

 

[Dave Horne]

Dave H., maybe if I just stuck to Tin Pan Alley ii-V-I standards, I wouldn't have to worry about F13 references?

 

 

When a tune was written has no bearing on the harmony used by the performer. My Tin Pan Alley tunes use all kinds of altered chords.

 

You might find a look at In A Mist enlightening.

 

 

[Jazzwee]

Dave, you do make me curious. I do not see 'In A Mist' in any of my books...

[Dave Horne]

Do a google search. It's a well known composition written by Bix Beiderbecke almost a hundred years ago. Some might say it's a jazz standard.

 

I've played the original piano work as well as at least one big band arrangement. This is our roots.

[percussion boy]

I've always understood the conventions to work as people are describing them here (A 6/9 chord has no 7th).

 

However . . .

 

It seems like some jazzers think of Maj7, 6/9, and Maj7/9 chords more interchangeably, i.e., seeing "C6/9" on the chart and playing the major 7th (B natural) in the voicing if that feels good. Presumably the chords are seen as similar because people often improvise over any of these chord types using the same kinds of scale(s).

 

When I first saw this in one of Mark Levine's books (JAZZ PIANO BOOK or JAZZ THEORY BOOK) it definitely played with my head.

[Dave Horne]

When in doubt, write it out.

[mcgoo]

When in doubt, write it out.

 

You jazz dudes remind me I'm always in doubt.... I write everything in slash chords. Bad habit I'm sure. Bb/C, Fsus/Bb, Eb Maj7/F. To me that's easy. 11 & 13 chords make me scratch my head. I soooo missed the memo on jazz theory.

[Dave Horne]

Dave, you do make me curious. I do not see 'In A Mist' in any of my books...

 

It's in the Jazz LTD fake book which states on its cover - over 500 tunes the real books missed, but I'd recommend buying the sheet music. I believe it's four pages in length and is written out as a piano work (no chord symbols).

[Mike Davis]

When in doubt, write it out.

 

You jazz dudes remind me I'm always in doubt.... I write everything in slash chords. Bad habit I'm sure. Bb/C, Fsus/Bb, Eb Maj7/F. To me that's easy. 11 & 13 chords make me scratch my head. I soooo missed the memo on jazz theory.

 

I like slash chords too, although I've encountered a couple of bass players who didn't quite get the idea . . .

[SK]

I reserve "slash chords" for voicings that are too complex to write out otherwise, or when it's simpler to give the idea of a triadic sound over a root, like C/C#.

 

Otherwise, slash chords are harder to 'hear' - because you're thinking of two things and how they sound together, instead of one as a whole. It's actually more limiting, reducing your options of what you may play. For that reason, I don't like to be given a chart full of slashes, and I'll usually take the time to write it out more logically, so it's easier to comprehend.

 

Just some general info here for anybody: I think it's better to try to understand how chords are built... if one can understand a 7th, they can just as easily understand a 9th, an 11th, or a 13th. Just think of them as inversions going up on the keyboard, and then invert them to the position you want to use. Once you have it down, it becomes second nature.

 

The important point to remember is that chord symbols only suggest a sound. Nothing is written in stone as to how you play them.

 

Now this is less true in a lot of pop music. In rock styles, simple voicings can become part of the 'sound' or the character of the tune... you expect to hear chords played in root position (or however it was played on the original recording) as part of the actual identity of the tune. If you invert a chord, even though it's still theoretically correct, it may sound wrong - because it's not the 'way' it was played originally.

 

In broader concepts, you have full liberty to make the voicing exactly what you want to hear, as a means to expression. So keyboardists should learn their voicings so that when they see a chord symbol on a page, they already know exactly what it sounds like (before it's played) and then can choose how to play it - to best express what they want to hear.

[mcgoo]

Now this is less true in a lot of pop music. In rock styles, simple voicings can become part of the 'sound' or the character of the tune... you expect to hear chords played in root position (or however it was played on the original recording) as part of the actual identity of the tune. If you invert a chord, even though it's still theoretically correct, it may sound wrong - because it's not the 'way' it was played originally.

 

Nicely put. I hear so many jazz piano players playing rock & sounding ridiculous, as they just don't get that. Can you imagine someone playing "Smoke on the Water" with no regard to inversions & using substitutions?

 

I think part of my having developed a bad habit of writing all slash chords stems from being a rock'n roll dude. I don't hear a lot of chords that go beyond 7ths in rock. What I do hear is a lot of pedal tone, where the bass player rides tonic and guitar and / or keys move chords around. To use a really dull example, think of the opening to Van Halen's "Jump". The very 1st chord to me is a G/C. I would have a hard time picturing it as a C Maj 9 (no 3rd).

[Mike Davis]

 

 

Otherwise, slash chords are harder to 'hear' - because you're thinking of two things and how they sound together, instead of one as a whole.

 

I think it's better to try to understand how chords are built...

 

It's funny, it's just the opposite for me. Slashes seem a little more transparent. I agree 100% that it's good to understand how chords are built. Great post, SK.

[MuzikTeechur]

There are some pretty good discussions of chord conventions used in the front of each copy of The Real Book. Another good reference is Mark Levine's "The Jazz Piano Book" which discusses syles, voicings, voice-leading, and chord conventions.

 

[Dave Horne]

I find slashes sometimes hard to read if the left information (the chord) is a simple traid. I see an F/C and will pause every so slightly before playing an F chord over a C bass note. For a split second I could think it could be a C traid over an F in the bass.

 

While I'm not thrilled with the appearance of stacked writing to express a slash chord, it could make some sense but then we'd screw up the guys who read stacked chords as stacked chords and not chords over bass notes. (I'm glad I don't have any beginning students to explain this to.)

 

If it were F7/C I wouldn't hesitate at all.

 

Since I write my own lead sheets for bass players, it's my writing so I know what I wrote and there's never any confusion, ... at least for me. The bass players are on their own.

 

[ProfD]

The important point to remember is that chord symbols only suggest a sound. Nothing is written in stone as to how you play them.

 

In broader concepts, you have full liberty to make the voicing exactly what you want to hear, as a means to expression.

+1 on the excellent explanation SK.

 

Chord names i.e. C(9) or F7alt provide Jazz musicians with a lot of harmonic and melodic information concisely.

[mcgoo]

Since I write my own lead sheets for bass players, it's my writing so I know what I wrote and there's never any confusion, ... at least for me. The bass players are on their own.

 

Very funny & very true

[kanker.]

To use a really dull example, think of the opening to Van Halen's "Jump". The very 1st chord to me is a G/C. I would have a hard time picturing it as a C Maj 9 (no 3rd).

t's all about function. In Jump, you really are describing triads over a pedal tone, not C voicings. All voicing nomenclature should relate directly to harmonic function, giving you as much possible information about the material with the least amount of ink. Anyone who would call that first voicing a Cmaj9 (no 3rd) has no concept about the actual song or style in question

[kanker.]

So Jazzwee, the 13th is built on the 7th, 9th and 11th, and implies that they are there - whether they're played or not. Think of each of them as a fancy, increasingly more expressive 7th chord.

 

 

Thanks SK. Fortunately the understanding the extension wasn't the issue. It was the implication of b7 vs. Maj7 that was unclear and the fact that I was wondering if alternative naming conventions would be more intuitive (where the quality of the 7th was clearly stated).

Ahh, but the use of C7, C9, C11, or C13 does clearly state the nature of the 7th degree when you looks at the way voicings are described overall. Any chord that has it's extensions from the 7th degree or higher described immediately after the root note are dominant. Period. Any chord that has its extensions from the 7th or higher described after the a Maj designation have a major 7. That would include the Min/Maj.