taking Jazz too seriously

[Postman]

De gustibus non disputantum est.

[SK]

self delete

[SK]

BTW:

Keep it clean and protect yourself at all times.

D, you're always a diplomat, and you make a pretty good referee too.

[ProfD]

BTW:

Keep it clean and protect yourself at all times.

D, you're always a diplomat, and you make a pretty good referee too.

It works out that way unless someone put a drink on my Motif and/or requested a tune 30 years older than me.

[SK]

Ok, I'll remember that.

[suraci]

OR, I remember when a customer requested a song I had just played for him; illustrating my belief in evolution.

[SK]

A friend used to play with a very famous vibraphonist, who was getting up in years. He called a song and played it, and then started the intro for the next song - it was the same song they had just played. So the band, respectful to the legend, played it twice.

[suraci]

I can relate

 

[orangefunk]

I read the pianola comment as being about the genre as a whole, not a dig at Dave Horne in particular. For sure there is a lot of skill involved but I don't know if the audience takes too much notice like they would in almost any other form of music...

 

but Dave Horne is right about one thing, there is a lot of demand for that kind of music for functions, weddings, conferences and so on... I have lots of friends that do this on a regular basis, they also incorporate current pop hits into the mix and play them in a bossa nova style... (e.g. Kylie Minogue, et al)

 

they make a lot of money and they have little time to do anything else (its a nightmare trying to get my leaving the UK party gig together for instance).. but its not for me. We should just learn to accept that we all have different tastes and directions we want to pursue... for me its going more electronic while using the piano/rhodes to add that familiarity, texture and composed quality that those instruments provide.

 

I remember an interview with EST when they talked about his fascination with sticking to just piano.. but he said that was just the way it turned out and he had stacks of synths at home... with the entire possibility that future CDs might even be all synth...

 

pity we will never know now...

[suraci]

With respect to the apparently dominant opinion here and elsewhere,

'To Synth or not to Synth', is not the issue.

Technology has little to do with creativity. Why? Because an artist can always find a way to be creative, even if there is a mass power outage. (Half serious w the example ) > An artist so stands out from the mass of ppl and the mass of his peers. A great artist is a rare thing.

In todays current brainwashing, ppl with average aptitude are "taught" about self esteem more than to truly respect via emulation ( not lip service ) the past masters.

 

This is part of the problem- the "flattening" ( we are all equal in talents-- bs! ) of the natural genius of men- via egalitarian notions.

Genius or something approaching it, is not common, as distortedly taught today.

So the real problem is, there are few great talents around, and the culture probably does not help, with its lies about what is true.

 

Being an artist is extremely difficult. "There are no guarantees" is applicable in music as in life.

When I think that (a genius among genius') some of Bach's manuscripts were used to wrap meat, this puts art, and seriousness, the difficulties of being an artist in a whole new perspective.

 

I have failed to be the artist I had hoped to be, but I know what an artist with great talent is.

 

I do something similar to what Mr Horne does, gig wise. It is not easy to have perfect integrity and manage to make a living. My hat is off to "the few, the proud", who can.

 

 

[suraci]

De gustibus non disputantum est.

I am not sure to what your quote about taste is intended

 

I believe saying so much of music is about taste can and is taken way too far.

I fully understand that taste is a major issue. The garbage "music" I hear daily proves it.

I may be 100% alone on this, but I do not believe that eg Bach and the Beattles are on par with each other. For me, there is a wide gulf.

Same with Kenny G and Metheny.

Kenny G is the cooler guy cause of all those intense recording sales- ( I AM kidding )

 

It seems to be a knee jerk reaction to say "De gustibus non disputantum est"

In matters of taste, there is no dispute.

That is true, BUT there is more to it than that.

 

Will someone step up and join me? Someone with better education or better writing skills? ( off soapbox )

Thanks

[MuMajor]

My education and writing skills are what they are, but I'll write a few lines nonetheless.

 

To me it seems like the "De Gustibus" slogan is perfectly correct, if the case really IS just a matter of taste. And I agree that if the slogan is pushed too far, it covers cases that it should not cover.

 

I have a friend that is (or at least used to be) a bit of a Kenny G fan. If he said to me "I really love Kenny G albums, and I just hate almost everything Metheny ever recorded", I would probably say "Well, De gustibus..." Case closed, he likes Kenny and dislikes Metheny, and for me it is the other way around. Going into a dispute is rather pointless - both of us will still have our judgments of taste no matter how much we dispute.

 

But, if this friend of mine would say "I think Kenny G albums contain heaps and heaps of ingenious compositions and playing - which is something the Metheny records simply lack", I would feel that I am almost compelled to enter into a little argumentation as to what is meant by ingenious playing etc, and how that concept is applied to music. And even if I wasn't able to convince him that Metheny really is on a totally different, higher level than Kenny G, I think this is a case where the "De gustibus..." is simply wrong. It is applied too far.

 

If the "De gustibus" was applied across the board in music, it would mean that everyone's right about everything in music, and this is simply wrong. "De gustibus" has its applications, but it also has its limits.

 

 

[orangefunk]

I do something similar to what Mr Horne does, gig wise. It is not easy to have perfect integrity and manage to make a living. My hat is off to "the few, the proud", who can.

 

 

Well good for you... but I think guys like you and Mr Horne confuse technique and command of the piano as where its all at... great you want to listen top the "masters" but many of us live for what is happening now... and with respect that ain't Gershwin, Tatum runs and Bach fugues..

 

I feel this argument on here (though friendly I hope!) really is as much a generation thing. Although I'm 40 in effect I'm more like a 25 year old in spirit.. as I'm always keeping abreast of whats happening and not always (though sometimes) looking to the past... (like I said previously, my main taste in jazz is the difficult 68-73 era which is now only being given its props I feel.. probably because theres a strong link to electronica)

 

Btw.. all this talk of "todays current brainwashing" makes me feel uneasy y'know... talent of course comes in many forms.. some of us can paint pictures some of us can merely decorate... but its hard to make a living with the former... (I thnk theres an analogy here with Mr Hornes view of the American Song book v the obscure stuff)

 

I agree about the term "genius", it is often overused. But, I honestly have just as much respect for a DJ guy who triggers samples from his little finger as a jazz pianist... the end result is what matters.. does it move me in anyway? Does it make me think? etc. There really is some wonderful things happening now... its a great age we live in and we're barely on the frontier...

 

 

[suraci]

MuMajor :Very thoughtful and well expressed, thank you.

I guess my concern is about the older players taking a more active role in teaching/coaching the younger?

I will continue this in my own new thread about : "Is everything really subjective.."

Thanks again

 

 

[Dave Horne]

But, I honestly have just as much respect for a DJ guy who triggers samples from his little finger as a jazz pianist...

 

That could actually fit on a tombstone.

 

 

[suraci]

Sorry my new friend orangefunk, you r a little more open minded than I !!!!

 

I have zero technique though- Dave and I are similar but also different, right Davey?

Music is something that ideally comes through one. In the best scenario, the player so inhabited by the "gift" of music, then instantly translates it through his instrument.

Technique is only useful to that end

My lack of same, is the reason i feel I have failed as an artist- but I haven't given up trying!

[Gary75]

But, I honestly have just as much respect for a DJ guy who triggers samples from his little finger as a jazz pianist...

 

That could actually fit on a tombstone.

 

 

My experience of DJ's are of an arrogant ego fuelled persona, I have just come out of my 20's and all this Ibiza club style music turns my stomach. I went to Ibiza (for the sun btw) last year and the DJ's were all pompous gits. I have no musical respect for a guy triggering samples.

[Dave Horne]

By definition a DJ is a musical parasite.

 

[suraci]

"I have no musical respect for a guy triggering samples"

Of course you don't... that's like a dog on a Sunday drive from Church, thinking it's driving the car.

 

Are we actually discussing this "seriously"? ha ha

A monkey could be so trained to play records.

A robot...

That is like the absurdly childish fantasy : artificial intelligence reaching a point where a "super" computer will be indistinguishable from a person, except smarter.

 

A dj can't cut my hair, let alone be grouped in my brain under the heading of musician- no, just a person who needs to get a real job.

 

I truly cannot think of a stupider idea.

A DJay? A mere entertainer, a clown, an interloper.

 

Dave Horne said " musical parasite"? I am "musical", quite, never a clownfaced player of monotone junk.

 

Listen, DJ's are a part of a decaying society fueled by true power mongering parasites. I have held a deep dislike of many sound engineers, record producers, Radio DJ's etc. edit: to the humble few, you know who you are- so you know the truth and would never dream of equating the mere manipulating of music w being an artist.

 

I generally dislike intensely, what passes for the music business. Mostly bc of the balls these ppl have to claim equality with a musician like me. In many cases even above the artist. Yes, that's ballz.

 

If the whole recording business crashed and burned along w MTV and the rest of it, i would be one happy camper.

This business is doing more harm to this society than even i can grasp. Our poor children are captive to this gigantic miasma of hellish noise the automatons call music.

 

Have your fun mocking, but if MY wishes came true every musician worthy of the name would have all the work he could handle- but so sadly the record biz, mtv would be long gone.

My wish will likely not happen, so enjoy your DJ's

[Gary75]

By definition a DJ is a musical parasite.

 

Do you think if enough of us contacted the people who update the dictionary's, we could get Dave's definition in there?

 

I like all the different hand gestures DJ's have, they get their fingers in some funny positions. I generally like to maintain just the one hand gesture in response.

[delirium]

As I read some responses it amaze me how disperse people "understanding" of topic can be

 

DH and SK, what on earth my playing or your playing for that matter have to do with our discussion? I feel sometimes here like in kindergarten with such arguments.

 

Last question, would you have still job without American Song Book?

 

[suraci]

Listen my friend from UK

I saw this horrid mess approaching since the early sixties.

It is a long ugly story of manipulation for power over artists- power over something decent, music of musicians.

NOT about music at all, but sex drugs and mostly power to manipulate you and your kids as well as the artists involved.

I am not claiming a conscious conspiracy, but it inexorably moved in that stranglehold monopoly-like direction.

 

I resent this obviously! Seeing little kids exposed to this is the number one reason for my indignation.

I saw those 60's radio jocks push the music they chose to push- usually lowest common denominator vocals over instrumentals. Hey, ppl like singers.

You do not realize the power they exercised over your lives ( even i don't fully) Music with lyrics is a powerful and more importantly UNACKNOWLEDGED POWER OVER THE PEOPLE.

They helped marginalize and weaken jazz ( with help from jazzers i admit )

They pushed that Dick Clark pap over better, yes better music.

 

You see with regard to feelings and music, the public are like little kids- they need right guidance. like a baby chick in the egg, they need protection. But instead, the better aspects of music were subjugated to the bottomline- the path of maximal money, lowest common denominator- sex and violence and the grotesque- Those three words roughly approximate much pop music, not all but too much.

 

Plato said Part of, a major part of arts purpose is to uplift mankind . If you want to broadcast a snuff film, it would be tempting to many who would never think to do it, yet to see it would be a disgusting temptation- bad ex perhaps. Plato seriously warns the musicians about going against the natural good, saying the 'music affects the consciousness of the nation'- woe unto he who ignores this.

 

In India the name for musician is a word that starts with a "B" Bhavagatar I believe, it literally means "he who sings the praises of God". I am not a Hindu so relax.

Ok, we don't maybe want ( Taliban anyone ) that, or do we? Do you really listen to the vibe of much metal and rap etc? It is disgusting at best. The screaming that will destroy their voices, the cussing, the immodesty with women and boys, the sacrilege of sex being associated with the horrid words "pimp and ho"- disgusting.

If it does not disgust you, I submit you have been tragically "had", your brain has been sold down the river Styx, so to speak, to one degree or another- it is called brainwashing- few have escaped it, including me. And i am not a garden variety Christian, in the sense it is normally used .

 

Do you think ANY small pocket of music would dare to be that way from 1950 back??? Answer, no way. In movies there was the Hays ( Hayes ) Commission that would not permit evil to win over goodness, there was a moral to the story etc- In the 1960's it was trashed. What a coincidence, our music and movies began to noise dive in the lie of freedom of expression.

You don't see the sharp shocking contrast of then to now ( I DO) , in these simple terms, instead we make fun of the 1950's,

I DO, I painfully see it- i know kiddies, it's all "one man's opinion"- no kidding.

What a cool way to shut down common sense- all opinions are merely that, opinions- all equal, all meaningless. WRONG!

 

Rant over

 

[Dave Horne]

DH and SK, what on earth my playing or your playing for that matter have to do with our discussion?

 

As I'm sure I wrote earlier, it helps to put a practical perspective into all of this.

 

I also find it a tad silly for grown men to hide behind a fake name or a fake location as well, but I digress.

 

I don't know about you, but the only reason I practice thousands of hours is to be heard. What's the point of practicing if you only play in your little bedroom studio. The point of music is to be heard. If this were a writing forum would you also not post examples of your writing?

 

Last question, would you have still job without American Song Book?

 

Of course. I was a church organist when I was 15. I turned the job down after six months because the money wasn't good. I sure I could always go back to church to make money.

 

I've heard many bands perform in a very large hotel near my house and for the most part, they play too loud and the music they play is too simple. I could play that if I really had to (only for money of course), but at the age of 58 I really prefer playing what gives me as well as the customer pleasure.

 

So, can we assume you will not share your musical talents with us? Poser ... or poster? Get ... real.

 

 

[jook]

I don't know about you, but the only reason I practice thousands of hours is to be heard.

Sure. But here's the thing - people can be selective about their audiences. Just because you want to be heard does not mean you want everyone to hear you. Some people do I suppose. The loudest, most outspoken ones who seek fame and fortune wants everybody's attention. I personally, do not.

 

If you don't see why... think of it this way. Let's say I wrote a poem in another language, let's say Japanese. I wouldn't necessarily want to recite that to an audience that don't understand Japanese. It's not going to be appreciated, nor is it going to be of any relevance. It's not snobbery either, it's just that if we're not on the same page, then it's a waste of time. In fact, it'll be worse than nothing, because it establishes a preconception, where there was none before.

 

So, can we assume you will not share your musical talents with us? Poser ... or poster? Get ... real.

C'mon, that's just plain taunting and not at all cool. Don't turn it into a pissing contest.

[Dave Horne]

Sure. But here's the thing - people can be selective about their audiences.

 

Keyboard players in a keyboard forum sponsored by Keyboard Magazine.

 

Gee, I don't know, this seems like a good place, don't ya think.

[delirium]

Last question, would you have still job without American Song Book?

 

Of course. I was a church organist when I was 15. I turned the job down after six months because the money wasn't good. I sure I could always go back to church to make money.

 

that's what I thought - another cover band...

[jook]

Keyboard players in a keyboard forum sponsored by Keyboard Magazine.

 

Gee, I don't know, this seems like a good place, don't ya think.

Since you don't know, let me inform you.

 

No, it's not necessarily the most appropriate place. The only things we have in common here is the instrument we play. I'd say a forum with a common musical stylistic preference might be more appropriate.

 

At the end of the day, this is where we differ, it seems to me that you believe piano/keyboard playing is an absolute objective exercise. Like atheletics I suppose, and people can be ranked without question as to who is 1st, 2nd, and 63rd on the high score list that is "Music".

 

To me it's more like... your kids... or flowers. Do you rank your kids (here's Bob - he's my favourite, here's Shelly - she's better than Michael), or compare every rose to determine which one's perfect and which one's flawed?

[Dave Horne]

So I guess we won't be hearing from you either?

 

Perhaps you could tell us where you will be playing and those of us in the area could come by and listen.

 

Would this statement be met with comparisons of flowers and ranking one's children as well?

[delirium]

I don't know about you, but the only reason I practice thousands of hours is to be heard.

Sure. But here's the thing - people can be selective about their audiences. Just because you want to be heard does not mean you want everyone to hear you.

 

exactly, music is too personal for me to share it with just anybody. Would you share your wife with somebody you don't know?

 

[Dave Horne]

I don't know about you, but the only reason I practice thousands of hours is to be heard.

Sure. But here's the thing - people can be selective about their audiences. Just because you want to be heard does not mean you want everyone to hear you.

 

exactly, music is too personal for me to share it with just anybody. Would you share your wife with somebody you don't know?

 

cope out