taking Jazz too seriously

[Leberwurst]

Besides, it is harder to expose the latest "Take Five", "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy", "Wade in the Water" or "Birdland" without mainstream media i.e. constant airplay on radio, video, commercials, football games, etc.

 

if they'd only use keytars

[delirium]

 

if they'd only use keytars

 

they do...

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/HerbieHancock.jpg/220px-HerbieHancock.jpg

[jook]

I believe in what marino said above. Music exists before theory, and before genres. To let yourself be locked down to these ideas before everything else would be a mistake. To think that music can't be true or of value unless it can be broken down into theory, or to put priority in the theory and names used to describe music over our independent ability to appreciate music without preconceptions, would be a waste.

 

Which "ideas"? re: "these ideas".

Yes, music exists apart from theory.

Same with the world- it exists apart from man's theories.

If you are talking my things I said, i agree, music is first, never theory.

What I am talking about is continuing to be misunderstood.

ABSORPTION of a style- a deep grasp of what that style is, in the sense, that "you" can play or write in that style, regardless of theory, which is merely like training wheels- never meant to be a halter to creativity.

The ppl I respect in music have displayed tremendous creativity- not theory.

 

My whole life, I have been alienated by the musicians around me consistently knocking the early masters position on the curtailing of parallel fifths and octaves.

Its a lengthy topic that others here may know more about...but

the idea of disciplining yourself to try writing that way, does not yield a limitation, but a liberation. In the sense that one ( at least I ) hears fifths and octaves in a new way. He finds a secret to GET A CERTAIN EFFECT, THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT IT. It's simple- yet ppl use all these pejoratives about old theory- they miss the point entirely.

Of course I play parallel fifths and octaves, but I am aware of the effect of using contrary motion- independence of the voices.

 

That was just a concrete example, which there have been too few of

 

Hey, I agree with what you're saying (including the drunk/stoned collapse at the keyboard at the end ), if I may try to sum up what you're saying in less words: You have to learn the rules to break the rules.

 

And I'm in full agreeance with that. Note I never slagged theory and say it's bad in itself. I'm saying if you restrict yourself to preconceived ideas, then that's bad (or if not bad, at least static). If you open yourself to theory, tradition, history, AND progress and change, ... then that's where it's at.

[Legatoboy]

For me focusing on jazz study was only a good thing and enhanced all the musics I play. I don't like to get too involved with 'Camp' logic unless it's from Camp-O (my last name).

 

The hard core jazz people will tell you that rock is really silly music and the rock people will tell you jazz is elitist and self indulgent or cerebral or something.

 

I think to do anything well you have to spend alot of time doing it and everything falls out from there. The more important question is really I feel what do you want to do!

 

You gotta believe!

Truly what do you want to do!

 

My "coach" will say alot of guys (&gals)in my age group (40-60) tend to have their feet in two camps and that isn't good he says. Being half involved w/jazz and half w/rock creates a way for us to obfuscate ourselves according to him, but he does admit we all have to 'play' the age and times we grew up in.

 

We is what we is! Sometimes liking something that might be bad for you is ok because at least it gets you on the trail to liking something with some intensity! In alot of ways I look at my youth and rock and blues that way. It without a doubt helped create some intensity in my musical life!

 

 

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

What exactly is your point delirium?

 

You're being a little inconsistent here. At one point you proposed that some player (I don't remember his name) but playing 2000 miles per hour was some great jazz player, while you look down on the likes of Keith Jarrett who is in fact focused on melody.

 

Since you took that side before, I'm wondering where you are going now. Have you changed your tune?

 

Is a John Coltrane kind of sound masturbatory?

 

 

[Jazzwee]

Dave H., you know I love your playing style and your piano playing skills.

 

But if your trio was playing a concert (sticking to the great American songbook) and another trio plays what you call "obscure Jazz tunes" (which I think you defined a long time ago as including "Windows" -- and I'm sure "Tones for Joans Bones" would be in that category), then I think I will be skipping your concert and will be going to the other one.

 

Let me add to the list of tunes that I would imagine that you would not play: Dolphin Dance, Nardis, Invitation, Spain, Maiden Voyage, Solar, So What, probably all originals from Bill Evans, all originals from Miles, all originals from Coltane, all originals from Bud Powell, all originals from Charlie Parker...etc., and any recent originals - period.

 

Although you may be right that this secures your particular audience (in your particular area), I hope your audience doesn't die off too soon.

 

Happily the world is made up of different people and even in jazz, we have different tastes.

 

 

[delirium]

What exactly is your point delirium?

You're being a little inconsistent here. At one point you proposed that some player (I don't remember his name) but playing 2000 miles per hour was some great jazz player, while you look down on the likes of Keith Jarrett who is in fact focused on melody.

 

Jazzwee, I stated my point really few times on this thread, my advise is don't take everything so ad verbum like DH takes

My liking (on not) of KJ playing has nothing to do with anything here.

 

 

Since you took that side before, I'm wondering where you are going now. Have you changed your tune?

 

I'm going towards free style music

 

 

Is a John Coltrane kind of sound masturbatory?

 

depends on what is that activity for you, a pleasure or torture?

 

 

 

[Dave Horne]

I hope your audience doesn't die off too soon.

 

As long as the great singers keep singing those great tunes, those tunes will always be heard. Michael Buble might the youngest of the newer singers to keep those tunes alive.

 

I am always amused when I run into a musician who can play Windows or Joy Spring but doesn't know Lazy River or Tea For Two. Jazz doesn't have to be obscure tunes, it can also be well constructed tunes by Hoagy Carmichael, Cole Porter, et al.

 

All I know, I've never been out of work ... and I manage to hold onto my musical principles as well.

[suraci]

I think the "answer" to standards versus jazz tunes, is both; as is often the case in practical life.

I heard Herbie play "I Didn't Know What Time it Was", a dumb standard, based on some of the standards around here.

My mouth dropped- I who seldom smile while listening to music, could not erase the permanent smile from my face- Herbie's rendition was so amazing.

 

Again, for the third time, but whose counting, it's the WAY you play it, that matters by far the most.

 

In "jazz", the treatment of the tune is far more important than the original tune.

Some players play more melodically than others, but that is beside the point,

the WAY you play is the thing.

 

The way you play jazz uses the same theories as those in other improvised musics , aka jazz, or compositions with development aka classical music.

One uses ear training, melody and variations; rhythm and variations; harmony and variations. AND additionally, one gets into the most subtle aspects of those 3 main elements ( yeah, I know there are counterpoint and what used to be called orchestration, and form ) by STUDYING the masters that preceded one.

Why, you learn so much. We tend to take for granted what we grew up with in music. The studying of that taken for granted music, holds many surprises to the watchful student.

Whether you call the above elitist, intellectual, or fubar, it's the same reality- beyond raw talent, there is melodic harmonic and rhythmic STUDY- and NOT STUDY AS IN PASSING AN EXAM- no, study as in becoming ONE WITH AN ARTIST.

Now the WAY you play it, personalize it, goes even beyond that!! That leads some to trailblazing.

[SK]

....so they escape to pointless, pseudo "improvisations", and this is the problem with modern jazz....

An example of this is "Both Sides Now" from Herbie's "River - the Joni Letters". I listened to this and wondered where the melody even was. The chords were changed to the point of being unrecognizable, and there was no recognizable melody. Was it a masterful performance, yes. But to my ears it was a "pointless, pseudo 'improvization'".

I don't like everything I hear in jazz, in fact, most of it I don't. And there are some "pseudo improvisations" out there, like Ellington said: there's good and bad music.

 

But taking a song and changing it so much is not always a bad thing, if you consider that jazz is just a chance to MAKE MUSIC. It's not about being faithful to a version. It's about what new music can be made, and sometimes that music is deeper than the song it's based on. But that doesn't mean everyone will like it, or that it always works.

 

(BTW, when we make this personal and single out names on the forum for being close minded, it becomes a pointless fight over "who's right". Nobody sees everything the same way, and often DH's intent is clearly to motivate in his own way, not just condemn.)

 

Now I'm not addressing you, Mr. Nightime, man... just borrowing your quote to make a point, since many here have said the same thing in much stronger terms:

I think there's a problem with any form of music taking itself too seriously.

So how does a form of music or a musician take music too seriously? Does a doctor take medicine too seriously? (If so, he's the guy I'd want to go to. I like doctors to be obsessive/compulsive about their work.)

 

The real problem is in people taking themselves too seriously, and that's when they put down genres, because they think they're tastes are better than anyone else's.

 

To put it bluntly: A jazz musician who says any other genre is all bad is an ignorant musician. Just as any rock musician who says jazz is bad music is an ignorant musician. But if a musician just doesn't like a style, that's ok. He may acquire a taste for it later. Don't pronounce judgment until you know more yourself.

 

When I was around 8 years old, someone laid a Cannonball Adderley record on me. I'd never heard anything like it - it was bebop - and it made no sense to me. I didn't like it or understand it, but I respected it and kept it. I knew "something" was going on, but in a language I couldn't begin to understand. I'm glad I kept it, because later my ears opened and I finally heard it for the first time.

[ProfD]

As long as the great singers keep singing those great tunes, those tunes will always be heard.

 

Jazz doesn't have to be obscure tunes, it can also be well constructed tunes by Hoagy Carmichael, Cole Porter, et al.

Music books and recordings preserve tunes composed over the last 300 years.

 

Those obscure Jazz tunes are merely cousins to the GAS.

 

IMO, any tune can work. Really comes down to how well the muscian(s) "sell" it.

 

When it comes to art, beyond talent, personal appearance, personality, charging fee, audience, etc. have to be considered too.

 

BTW, I hardly ever hear GAS or Real Book tunes on Jazz festivals.

[suraci]

b

[Musicale]

Jazz is not Pop, Pop is not classical, hip hop is not country, what's goin on ?

 

Music is always music you either dig it or you don't.

 

It's true it might be harder to appreciate some of the more current musicians playing music, but to me what I enjoy are musicians getting into a groove and expressing themselves no matter what the genre. Genre is pretty much irrelevant. You can hear music.

 

The experience seems important: Zawinul, Jarret.maybe Meldhau, of course all the superstars, Smith, Holmes, Ellington, Tatum, Morton, maybe Metheney, Reinhardt it gos on and on. You can tell what is sustainable and timeless.

 

Pardon the rant,

 

Regards,

 

Musicale

 

 

[Jazzwee]

All I know, I've never been out of work ... and I manage to hold onto my musical principles as well.

 

I beg to differ my friend. By your own acknowledgement you limit your improvisation. So to me that's pandering to your audience.

 

But with this philosophy, players like Brad Mehldau would have never come out. Cats like him would be doing casuals forever.

 

By making your musical choices you have made a choice about where you fit. And hearing your talent I think there's a good chance you would have succeeded anyway if you had taken the road of more risk.

 

BTW - I'm not saying that success or lack thereof is somehow tied to the Great American Songbook, I'm talking specifically of your approach of "toned down jazz improvisation".

 

 

[delirium]

I guess we still don't understand each other, having songs being played from Great American Songbook in restaurants etc can be as well accomplished to some degree by buying pianola by the owner...

People having dinner won't notice the difference anyway.

 

I'm talking about live, new jazz compositions.

 

[wmp]

... hip hop is not country

 

Big And Rich with Cowboy Troy comes close.

[ProfD]

I guess we still don't understand each other, having songs being played from Great American Songbook in restaurants etc can be as well accomplished to some degree by buying pianola by the owner...

People having dinner won't notice the difference anyway.

 

I'm talking about live, new jazz compositions.

I believe we do understand each other. Just offering more dialog on the subject.

 

Jazz musicians are composing new tunes. Limited media exposure restricts airplay which is the primary barometer of a hit record.

[jsaras]

My point again is most of jazz player are taking jazz too seriously plus they're unable to write catchy song so they escape to pointless, pseudo "improvisations"

 

Let's hear your "meaningful true improvisations" that put Kenny Barron to shame....silence.......Yeah, I thought so.

 

How hot is the air around you?

[jook]

Jazz musicians are composing new tunes. Limited media exposure restricts airplay which is the primary barometer of a hit record.

 

The whole discussion is really just a debate on definitions. If you consider Norah Jones or Buble to be jazz, then they do chart.

 

If the definition of jazz is limited to tonally and technically challenging, complex explorations of music, then ... that's like wondering why they don't sell as many oysters as McNuggets.

 

Or bemoaning that it's a shame oysters don't go well with ketchup as good as nuggets do. It's irrelevant.

 

There's a time and place for chicken nuggets, and there's a time and place for oysters.

 

Nuggets:

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/mcnuggets.jpg

 

Oysters:

http://www.chincoteague-island.net/images/seafood/oysters.jpg

 

These threads:

http://whogodis.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/pointless1.jpg

[orangefunk]

I beg to differ... I think it highlights the problem with jazz being always seen as this wide open thing, yet to all intents and purposes for many it is this closed thing. It can't be both ways for me... and I agree with the poster above who mentioned that without breaking from the standard tunes there would be no possibility for young stars to break out.

 

I also find myself agreeing with delerium about the pianola analogy... thats exactly how I hear lounge pianists... but then thats there function at times, to play musical wallpaper. I did a gig last night (art exhibition) where I was doing a few standards.. I might as well have not been there to all intents and purposes... it wasn't until we started playing our originals that the people there even noticed... so what gives...?

 

 

[orangefunk]

I will say something though... a lot of it is about the audience... if they are musically informed about what you are doing then it really really helps!!!

[Dave Horne]

... having songs being played from Great American Songbook in restaurants etc can be as well accomplished to some degree by buying pianola by the owner...

People having dinner won't notice the difference anyway.

 

Pianola? An excellent sound system with a CD can supply a full symphony orchestra. What's your point?

 

I have a thought, let's hear your version of live, solo piano playing. It's one thing to noodle for 20 minutes, it's quite another to play solo for four hours.

 

When you play solo piano you can't hide behind the bass player's solid bass line or the drummer's time, it's all on the solo player's shoulders. Some players do that better than others ... and some .... well, we haven't heard from them, have we?

 

For all we know, you're just a right handed player depending on others for support ... and posting anonymously to boot.

[SK]

Solo piano is demanding work, especially to do it well for hours. Dave doesn't need anyone to blow his horn for him (yeah, a pun) but I can say, having heard him, that he's a better player than some realize, or that comment wouldn't have been made. There are many piano player hobbyists to whom it applies - but not in this case.

 

I also understand delirium's idea that an original jazz hit would help the popularity of the music moreso than reinventing standards. Who couldn't agree with that? But let's hope delirium will demonstrate some of what he's talking about and share an mp3.

 

Someone else said this thread is pointless. Possibly so at this point, although there's been some good discussion along the way to elevate things above the topic title.

[suraci]

The NYC, circa 70's 80's, jazz snob is back!!

There is no way for me to describe the scene that I actually took for granted- namely the vibe of NYC jazz scene- easily the vastly superior jazz scene in it's day- 30'-80's.

Please ignore my ego if you can, and try to feel what i am reminiscing about.

It was a heavy powerful tangible musical swinging vibe. JUST BEING SURROUNDED IN IT, WAS A GREAT EDUCATION

And a definite part of it was ( based on my limited experience in NYC ) SERIOUSNESS of the musicians. Sure it was fun, it was also competitive in a way you would have to experience to understand- healthy competition/

It was a lot of things, including very special, unique.

Sure other cities had it too, but not to that extent.

This may sound like bs, i apologize for that. But Parker and Trane and great pianists and bassists HAD to be serious to play practically 12 hours a day ( night ).

They rehearsed, gigged, and jammed on top of it, not to mention practicing!!

No wonder it was so amazing- such a tremendous concentration of creative minds on the magnet that is creative yet swinging jazz.

But to get back, it was in a sense, serious but friendly ( not always of course ) competition.

I was told by more than one player that there were long late night sessions

and that Bird was the king of the hill. I was also told that these cats had seemingly endless variety of blues improv exiting their instruments!

Great amounts of energy for a noble thing as improvising.

Seriousness- education - creativity- that is jazz.

Snobbishness is just an after effect, not important- bc the music is the thing.

 

Question, how similar or otherwise is the rock scenes of yesteryear or even today?

 

[delirium]

I knew it'd end up like this, getting personal. This forum is fabulous, it's very easy to prove whatever you like.

 

BTW, some of you need classes in having arguments, try here:

 

Argument Clinic

[Dave Horne]

delirium, personal? Nah, not at all. On the other hand, it would be great to hear you play to help put your views in a more practical perspective.

 

Your identity can still be hidden from the light of day, but how 'bout sharing your playing with us.

 

Perhaps a new thread - Taking Delirium seriously might even be in order. You know, I come up with all these ideas for threads and the best someone can do is to copy it.

[delirium]

Dave, if you still think I have copied your thread you're really very naive and your logic is disarming...

bye, bye

 

 

[Dave Horne]

Does this mean you will not be posting any mp3?

[ProfD]

There is no reason for any thread even the sports related to devolve into a contest.

 

Everyone has a right to their views, opinions, playing style, etc.

 

Sure, we could have had one thread titled "taking music seriously" but that would have reduced our thread count.

 

Within all genres, there is a struggle to keep it real and make commercially viable music at the same time. So, it is always a relevant topic.

 

As regulars around here, you cats know the deal. No need to call one another out. Keep it clean and protect yourself at all times.

[delirium]

As regulars around here, you cats know the deal. No need to call one another out. Keep it clean and protect yourself at all times.

 

just bought groin protector, this forum is unpredictable

 

http://euroross.blogspot.com/Soccer%20Balls%20Kick.jpg